Opinion Editorial: No, It Isn’t Time to Worry About RETIREMENT VISA Changes….Yet

[sambum]

17 minutes ago, mokwit said:

So many Turkeys voting for Christmas in this thread.

Got something to hide?

[John Drake]

14 minutes ago, sambum said:

Add to that, the increase we have all seen in the cost of living, and I am the kind of person that Big Joke would want to penalise by increasing the amount of money I have to put on deposit in a Thai bank, rather than the criminal element that he is supposed to be trying to eliminate? 

It's interesting, isn't it, that the targeted reason for this is to get rid of biker gangs. And the specific incident that kicked all this off involved German biker criminals who were participating in island property negotiations with a German real estate tycoon. Do these sound like people who would have any problem at all coming up with three or four million baht to keep their criminal activities going? Just for the heck of it, I looked up the prices for Harley Davidson's in Thailand. They run from around 600,000 to over 3 million. I don't think raising the deposit requirement is going to help "filter out," as Big Joke put it, who he regards as riff raff.  https://www.harley-davidsonbangkok.com/pricelist-2022/

Edited August 5, 2023 by John Drake

[sambum]

1 hour ago, mokwit said:

Where is this "copies of your home bank statement showing your income " requirement applied putativelydiscussed?

 

I also think it is not beyond the realms of possibility that they demand "source of funds" similar to AMLO requirements to prove that they are (supposedly) not ill gotten gains and thus (supposedly) eliminate criminals applications. 

I seem to have read on these boards that some provincial Immigration Offices require evidence of source of the 65k.

 

They could accept only Government and large company pensions as some S American countries do.

 

"They could accept only Government and large company pensions as some S American countries do."

 

My local (Thai) Immigration Office already makes that stipulation in order for me to get an Extension of Visa based on Marriage (Marriage Visa) I have to provide them with a copy of the form (P60) that the Inland Revenue Department (IRS in the USA) issue me every year as proof of my income through whatever means - in my case, Old Age Pension, and Company Pension. I also have to get a letter from my previous employers (every year) to verify that the Company Pension checks with the amount on the P60!!! 

Edited August 5, 2023 by sambum

[rabas]

54 minutes ago, CFCol said:

OA holders already have had to produce a criminal record check to get the visa.

Maybe it should be extended to "O" visa's too?

'O' is the base visa category, O-A was dreamed up for a specific class of foreign retirees. There's no reason to require criminal checks for everyone. So I doubt they do that.

 

Also, why require yearly overseas criminal checks for people living here full time? As far as I know, O-A retires tend to be more mobile.

 

Significantly larger financial limits on legitimate retirees would be counter productive. Among other reasons, criminals often have more money. Lol, how many retirees would start criminal activity to cover the increased expenses?

 

Note, previous monetary increases have been grandfathered so they do understand the concept. Even Joke commended not going beyond 800K last time changes were made.

 

They may make life more tedious, they seem good at that, but they won't chase long term retirees out of Thailand. That's not good for anyone.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by rabas

[Dogmatix]

8 hours ago, mokwit said:

What the article misses is that major changes can be made by police order without need for a new Immigration act. All the changes/new requirement have been done this way. They can change the financial requirements, ask for additional documents such as criminal record history, they can even drop clauses in the law (TM28). Did they increase the amount required for the old Bt 3m investment Visa (to 10m?) or drop it all together? Maybe they can drop the current retirement extension.

 

All kinds of new visa classes have been offered (by TE BoI MOFA), all but the Elite have onerous requirements such as criminal record checks. The OX aimed at high GDP per capita country applicants requires you to take the time and money to have a blood test to show you don't have Elephantiasis, leprosy and TB. these are very rare in these countries and you are far more likely to catch them here.

 

The below requirements are for issuance of the OX extension once you are in country. BTW, you have to go to Imm and reqaulify EVERY year.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwidscHpqMSAAxX_7TgGHcTPDNYQFnoECAsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbangkok.immigration.go.th%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2022C1_20.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1E5oyJ1ln4_6Y8nF6AyfR7&opi=89978449

Exactly right. The Immigration Act is from the 70s and is very out of date and doesn't even mention retirement or marriage extensions, which only came in in the 90s,  but Immigration can change most of the important details by issuing police orders that get published in the Royal Gazette and have the force of law.  

 

Definitely they should check criminal records for any long term visas.  US embassies and consulates also have a standing order to refer visa applications from anyone with a background in motorcycle gangs to the State Department which denies their visas, unless there are exceptionally good reasons to approve them. Visa applicants are obliged to give details of all social media accounts and can be denied for withholding any. Thailand would do well to issue a police order banning anyone with a background in motorcycle gangs too and get rid of all the foreign Bandidos and other motorcycle scum.  If the US can do it, why not Thailand, rather than wringing hands and allowing local officials to continue pocketing bribes from these criminals. 

[Dogmatix]

When you take into account that it is about 20 years since all the financial hurdles were revised for retirement and marriage extensions as well as for PR and citizenship applications, it is inevitable that these will all be bumped up in the not too distant future, even though it will, of course, do nothing to keep out criminals. The previous lump sum requirement for retirement extensions was 200k.  So they are capable of bumping it up hugely when it hasn't been raised for a long time. But the good news is that people who had been on retirement extensions for a few years at the time were grandfathered in at the old price which still applies to them today, if they are still alive and kicking.  I am pretty sure they will also grandfather people in at 800k, when they bump it up, to prevent a backlash and complaints of people having to leave the country. 

[BE88]

Reading what BJ said I wondered we are dealing with an incompetent , why this statement to amend the law should be focused on visa restriction in terms of police security with cross checks with police or Interpol of the country of the applicant. The means of monitoring are now endless to monitor a person and hear what he says on the phone or on social media and this super smart bureaucrat finds nothing better than to improve the standard of future Thailand residents by increasing the demand for bank deposits.

I don't think much of Thai bureaucrats, but this statement goes beyond all limits of inability to govern a country.

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah understand my service bills on my helicopter have increased. 

I have the feeling that Mr. @Kwasakithinks this is smart comment but sadly it is plain dumb and is a weak attempt of ignoring the reality. Anyone single,  who had a middle class lifestyle back home, will need that sort of money to keep his standard of living. What is the rent for a good 70/80 sqm condo in Silom? A barely decent bottle of wine costs 700 Baht. The near free good quality healthcare is now an expensive private hospital, and so on.. 

[digger70]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Go and have a look in prison, pretty much all have tattoos 

Your  just Biased. Give yourself a chance to differentiate Who the good people are and the bad . You obviously don't have any TATS Right. 

I still class you Bad because you worse than people with TATS.

[BE88]

4 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

It takes quite a while in the UK to get the said document and what do you want people already here on Non 0 visas for many years already to do?

 

Fly back to the UK to get one of these documents once a year?

Why should it be done every year?

It would be necessary to have it before coming to Thailand, it doesn't seem possible that a normal person after the age of 50 can suddenly become a criminal in Thailand if he has no previous criminal contributions.

[xtrnuno41]

In another forum i red this morning, there is(are) already a change in non o retirement visa application. A change as forum member asked and expertised moderator had to check first. On embassy sites not shown, but you are confronted when doing the application.https://www.thaievisa.go.th

 

If you want a non o retirement visa, then you have to provide/prove your flight tickets, in AND out?! It is a demand! Page 31/32 of https://www.thaievisa.go.th/static/English-Manual.pdf

 

However also shut down on demand of health insurance, as they ask now prove of:

explicitly mention: 

Outpatient benefit with a sum insured not less than 40,000 THB or 1,300 EUR

Inpatient benefit with a sum insured of not less than 400,000 THB or 13,000 EUR

cover all medical expenditures including COVID-19 for at least 100,000 USD

You may consider buying a Thai health insurance at online at longstay.tgia.org.

 

"my" country doesnt give numbers, but you are fully insured never the less.

That one would be also new, as it was first only for non O -A.

 

Then I wonder what are the rules in Thailand, as many have non O ?

 

[jerrymahoney]

48 minutes ago, rabas said:

Note, previous monetary increases have been grandfathered so they do understand the concept. Even Joke commended not going beyond 800K last time changes were made.

Yes but also note the word "consecutively" (click on image)

Edited August 5, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

I for one don't understand all the perceived problems/drama of visa extensions, for over 20 years extending my visa initially for employment, then retirement and later marriage I've never had any problem when supplying the correct legitimate paperwork and I've never considered or needed an agent to circumvent the system. Maybe this is due to complying with requirements (not all that difficult), a civil attitude, and being aware that I'm a visitor in Thailand and not being special and entitled. 

Over the years I've seen many applying for extensions etc and could immediately see why they ran into problems - unwashed, unshaven, dressed like bums, and poor attitude - and they wonder why they are given a hard-time. 

 

It has always been that when I hand over the correct documents it is just a formality, All very well if your landlord supplies TM30 documents, without which you can't extend your visa. All very well if you can match insurance dates with your OA visa dates - the risk is we get hit with a curve ball that is difficult to  comply with. What if your Landlord dies and can't provide TM30 docs when you are asked to update TM30 by immigration?

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, sambum said:

letter from my previous employers (every year)

What happens when somebody's previous employer closes down. It is these situations where we can't provide what is asked that can be the problem, and the more they ask the more likely we fall through the cracks.situations.

 

Imm have very precise requirements and are very pedantic about them being met - I am not sure I know of cases where they accept something else in lea of what the regulations stipulate.

[Kwasaki]

39 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

I have the feeling that Mr. @Kwasakithinks this is smart comment but sadly it is plain dumb and is a weak attempt of ignoring the reality. Anyone single,  who had a middle class lifestyle back home, will need that sort of money to keep his standard of living. What is the rent for a good 70/80 sqm condo in Silom? A barely decent bottle of wine costs 700 Baht. The near free good quality healthcare is now an expensive private hospital, and so on.. 

Total naively how sad.

Wish you Goodluck though it's your life.

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, sambum said:

Got something to hide?

Nothing whatsoever, I don't have Elephantiasis, Leprosy or TB, not even Syphilis last time I checked, no criminal record and i could meet the financial requirements of he new long stay visas. I just don't want at best additional paperwork and lining up dates, at worst not being able to renew because I can't get a required document or get it in time. This could happen currently with TM30 and there goes your grandfathering on 800k, when it could be Bt3m for new applicants.

 

Others see what I am getting at?

[GroveHillWanderer]

5 hours ago, mokwit said:

all right all right, if you want to be over pedantic, but few kept 800k all year previous to that - i didn't, but now do. I used to draw down the 800k but had to make a one time addition of 400k.

You can't extrapolate based on

simply your own experience, though. Just because you used to take the 800k out doesn't mean the majority of people did.

 

To give an opposing, also totally non-probative example, everybody I know who uses (or used to use) the 800k method, leaves (or left) it in all year.

 

That doesn't mean the majority do, though I suspect more than just a few do it this way, based on the number of comments to that effect on this forum alone.

Edited August 5, 2023 by GroveHillWanderer

[jesimps]

11 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Forget increasing financial limits that won't help at all, do a criminal record check instead

Problem is, it'd probably be up to us to produce one from our home country, which would mean yet another piece of paper to hand to immigration. I don't have a clue how to go about it. Would it involve the good old British Embassy? I'm sure they'd be very helpful.

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

Even Joke commended not going beyond 800K last time changes were made.

....but I had to bring in an additional 400k so he was talking out of his @rse, dishonestly in my opinion.

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

Visa applicants are obliged to give details of all social media accounts and can be denied for withholding any.

This is because the US is an extremist totalitarian state now. Most Americans haven't noticed the same way frogs boiled in a pot don't notice until it is too late.

 

Note: I LIKE Americans and have many American friends.

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

I am pretty sure they will also grandfather people in at 800k, when they bump it up, to prevent a backlash and complaints of people having to leave the country. 

Grandfathering was pre 2014 Governments. They didn't grandfather anybody in for the de facto increase of bt400k PA from the requirement to keep 400k in the account year 'round.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

These posts are like Chinese whispers, there really is no point speculating. The truth of the matter is "Joke" isn't very funny and gets moved on when he makes too many waves. Thailand has no logic so it is just a guessing game. It is a balencing act, scare off new retirees and kick out the old ones? What will TAT say? What about all the abandoned families?

How about the RTP does a job on the Biker Gangs and kicks them out? No, that's too much like work so is never going to happen is it.

 

[Gknrd]

Thailand is adopting the "Wolf Warrior diplomacy" in regard to Western expats. 

Won't be long now.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Gknrd

[jwest10]

8 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

No, as I don't see how I could live in Thailand on less than 100k a month.

Wht that much 

[sambum]

22 minutes ago, mokwit said:

What happens when somebody's previous employer closes down. It is these situations where we can't provide what is asked that can be the problem, and the more they ask the more likely we fall through the cracks.situations.

 

Imm have very precise requirements and are very pedantic about them being met - I am not sure I know of cases where they accept something else in lea of what the regulations stipulate.

I agree with Imm being very pedantic, but if it is physically impossible to get the info they require, then I have found that if you explain WHY that info is unavailable  (as in previous employer closed down) then they would accept the details as shown on the document from the Government/Inland Revenue/IRS.

I had a situation where the IO wanted "family photographs" and although not an official requirement, she asked for a photo of the roof of the house.(!) My Thai wife explained that we couldn't get a photo of the roof of the house because there was a big tree in the way, so she accepted that and moved on to the next item.

I think that for a "Marriage Visa" they can be a bit more pedantic than a "Retirement Visa", but in both cases if you have a logical explanation or suggestion to rectify the situation, then most times it will be acceptable.

[mokwit]

15 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

Thailand is adopting the "Wolf Warrior diplomacy" in regard to Western expats. 

Won't be long now.

You may be closer than you think - China has stated it doesn't want any Western influence in what it considers it's back yard. That definition of "Influence" includes Westerners living there. I have seen comments from Chinese to the effect that China regards itself as having "dominion" over all black haired Asian peoples - it is after all the "Middle Kingdom"

Edited August 5, 2023 by mokwit

[mokwit]

3 minutes ago, sambum said:

if you have a logical explanation or suggestion to rectify the situation, then most times it will be acceptable.

Depends what it is. A photo of a roof maybe, a required document, not so sure.

[ralphbenno]

When it comes to criminal situation, there is no difference between Thai citizens and foreign retirees legally living in Thailand.  All  are on the police radar.

 

Unfortunately crimes can be committed by foreigners and Thai people . tracking  suspected criminals is the job of the police . With an update version of their data base they can track suspected criminals

 

Any changes to immigration laws would not help apprehend foreign criminal living in Thailand.

[mokwit]

1 minute ago, ralphbenno said:

Any changes to immigration laws would not help apprehend foreign criminal living in Thailand.

We are looking at this too much through our own lens.

 

Stated reason for TM30 was "Temple bells affair" and Iranian terrorists. Actually Imm were embarrassed about not being able to locate Interpol arrest requests and tourists when they hadn't posted on facebook for 2 days and people back home assumed they must have been murdered.

 

Thais are asking how is it that all these foreign criminals are operating in Thailand and how does Imm permit these people?- in particular romance scammers and conmen - must get their goat to be romance scammed or conned.

[biggles45]

Does it really matter how much the money in the bank is? They are criminals so they will steal it or go to an agent who will pay another 'criminal' to approve the extension. This is Thailand where corruption rules but no one wants to solve that problem.