Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, BE88 said:

Wrong, if you are resident in Thailand all your income is taxable unless you can demonstrate that your income has already been taxed in another country that has an agreement with Thailand

I wrote:

 

"Only the funds that are remitted to Thailand are liable to Thai tax, at the time they are remitted". (meaning, funds that remain outside Thailand are not liable to Thai tax)

 

That is completely true, as Sherrings confirms.

 

https://sherrings.com/assessable-income-foreign-sources-thailand.html

[Dogmatix]

42 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

So it not taxed in the UK? 

Not if that's the only income you have. It is just below the threshold.

[atpeace]

13 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Can I get a Wise card sent here to Thailand? My Wise account is in Euro.

I just looked and they don't have a card for Thailand.  I wonder if I used my USA address...

[Dogmatix]

48 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I use my Crypto.com debit card for almost everything. 

Can top up with Bitcoin.

How does this work?  You have bitcoin somewhere which is not notifiable under CRS and don't have to pay Thai tax on gains?

[BE88]

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I wrote:

 

"Only the funds that are remitted to Thailand are liable to Thai tax, at the time they are remitted". (meaning, funds that remain outside Thailand are not liable to Thai tax)

 

That is completely true, as Sherrings confirms.

 

https://sherrings.com/assessable-income-foreign-sources-thailand.html

I see you like to quote only what is convenient for you but you don't read what he said next, please read carefully "but tax the income in the year it is imported into Thailand" he didn't just say what is imported but all the income

Edited October 9, 2023 by BE88

[Rimmer]

An off-topic post in violation of our Community Standards has been removed.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, BE88 said:

I see you like to quote only what is convenient for you but you don't read what he said next, please read carefully

Post whatever you think that is because I don't see anything that changes that statement. 

[MJCM]

23 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Can I get a Wise card sent here to Thailand? My Wise account is in Euro.

Is your address with Wise in Thailand? If so then NO.

 

Mine is in Europe and I got the card send to my Postal address there and then friends FedEx(ed) it over.

[deejai33]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You talk about income, I only talked about savings so yes, entirely accurate.

But the savings may or may not have been taxed already. 

 

Savings are simply income you didn't spend.   

 

 

[Neeranam]

5 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

How does this work?  You have bitcoin somewhere which is not notifiable under CRS and don't have to pay Thai tax on gains?

The Thai tax law regarding crypto was unclear until March last year. 

I bought all my bitcoin 5 years + ago. I have kept most of it on a hardware wallet and a US bank(Kraken). 

I really have no idea how this is all going to pan out: I'm looking for answers before the next bitcoin halvening in a few months. . Many people falsely think Bitcoin is not traceable. However, like other currencies, there are ways to limit, avoid taxes. My mother gave bitcoin Christmas gifts to her grandchildren, I've friends that moved to Portugal/Dubai to offramp profits, etc. 

 

 

 

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Is your address with Wise in Thailand? If so then NO.

 

Mine is in Europe and I got the card send to my Postal address there and then friends FedEx(ed) it over.

Thanks. No. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Neeranam

[noobexpat]

8 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

But the savings may or may not have been taxed already. 

 

Savings are simply income you didn't spend.   

 

 

Then stop calling it savings. The correct term is capital.

[beammeup]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I use my Crypto.com debit card for almost everything. 

Can top up with Bitcoin.

 

 

Was that BTC purchased with money sourced inside Thailand or offshore? Would it make a difference?

[NanLaew]

22 hours ago, Neeranam said:

All bank accounts pay interest. If they don't, it's a scam by the bank officer/s,, wherein they get the interest. 

I once managed to get a former Minister of Finance to look into why I was not getting interest with my bank account. After his team investigated, I and all the other foreigners immediately started getting interest. The bank worker pleaded with me to not press charges against her as she would have gone to jail. 

You mean all regular Thai bank accounts pay interest.

 

Both my non-resident US banks did not. Unless you are calling him a liar, the non-resident Thai bank account that @Mike Lister talks about didn't pay interest.

 

All does not mean all.

[BE88]

21 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Post whatever you think that is because I don't see anything that changes that statement. 

I hope you are right but I doubt this is the case because it leaves many doubts about what the government wants to tax, it must give further details so we continue with assumptions, because so far nothing is clear.

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, BE88 said:

I hope you are right but I doubt this is the case because it leaves many doubts about what the government wants to tax, it must give further details so we continue with assumptions, because so far nothing is clear.

 

Don't troll me boy!

[quake]

2 hours ago, atpeace said:

I guess all this is worth some thought but on other hand it completely futile,  Some seem to feel they know a lot and myself may have come off as knowing too much.  In the end, nobody on this thread really has a grasp o of what will be taxed and how it will be taxed.  The taxing of foreign remittances seems flawed on so many levels that in a sane world it would never come to fruition.  Preparing for anything is pointless because we don't know what to prepare.

+1 

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, beammeup said:

Was that BTC purchased with money sourced inside Thailand or offshore? Would it make a difference?

I was actually working here but 75% of my income was from working online for a US company, and I paid tax in USA. I don't know. 

[Neeranam]

22 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

You mean all regular Thai bank accounts pay interest.

 

Both my non-resident US banks did not. Unless you are calling him a liar, the non-resident Thai bank account that @Mike Lister talks about didn't pay interest.

 

All does not mean all.

First I've heard of this. 

I see Bangkok bank pays interest on non resident account. 

 

Are these like offshore accounts? 

 

https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Save-And-Invest/Save/FCD-Account-for-Non-residents

Edited October 9, 2023 by Neeranam

[mokwit]

17 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Er, you might change your mind if they decide to enforce that foreigners need tax clearance certificates before leaving the country. Those certificates are already on the books but not enforced.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23518.html

They could really stick it to us with that - tax clearance as a condition of extension too. We'd be like rats in a trap. Only way out would be unofficial land crossing and facilitated entry stamp across the border as used currently by unofficial entrants and overstayers. This being Thailand there would be minivans leaving every morning from BKK and Pattaya for this new visa service.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, K2938 said:

And in the course of complaining about your transfers in 2024, they will then probably also ask you a lot of questions about transfers you made in the past and also start complaining about those because maybe they were not really tax-free

They were tax free if remitted not in the calendar year the income was received. 

If you didn't follow this rule (as nobody cared about foreign pensions) and foolishly sent your  income, pension or other,  immediately to Thailand, it was not automatically tax free. Maybe a DTA applied, maybe it was so little that after all no tax was due - but maybe tax was due all these years. 

 

[stat]

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Whilst you have raised some valid and important points in the past, you now seem to have lost perspective. An announcement of this nature is classic Thai officialdom, let's get the news out there now and we'll work out the details in due course, if we have to backtrack at some point we'll just let it quietly die. That has happened numerous times before in my 25 years here and it will continue to do so.

 

Once again, all that is happening is that Thailand is attempting to become a fully paid up member of CRS Reporting and fall in line with international standards on taxation, it's in their best interests to do this. It will take some time before things become clear so everyone must sit back, relax and wait. Assuming worst case and that everyone is out to kill us, isn't helpful. I don't believe for one moment that every incoming remittance will be checked for tax compliance. But I do believe that increasingly larger number of tax returns will be scrutinised to see if inbound transaction reported to them previously, are being declared. I also believe that more people will be instructed to file tax returns and the tax clearance letter may be the vehicle to enforce this, it is/was in the US. The RD is not interested in pursuing large numbers of foreign retirees for small amount of tax on remitted income. If a case happens to fall into their laps they will certainly enforce the rules but retirees are not the targets in all of this, that is not to say that their wont be some collateral damage, there usually is. 

 

We've all been warned, starting 1 January 2024, all inbound transactions have the potential to be scrutinised for tax in the way I described earlier. Now would be a good time to import savings or at least, bring their importation forward to before 1 January 2024. Between now and next year there's plenty of time for things to be clarified which I'm certain they will be. But I don't expect t see any farangs on crosses, lining the road, only paranoid people would think that.

Your claim that this has anything to do with CRS is not correct. CRS does not force any country to tax anything. Countries that do not even have an income tax are part of crs like the bahamas. CRS is about getting information on foreigen accounts and sending the info back to the individuals residence country.

Edited October 9, 2023 by stat

[bugger bognor]

85 pages of hearsay and scaremongering bull<deleted>. Absolutely delusional tripe no clarification whatsoever no details whatsoever a law that's been in existence for decades and has not changed! nobody will be required to file anything no expat will have to prove anything where when or why there money has come from impossible for them to implement and I think it's mainly stupid Americans debating this stuff get a life the Thai government can't even implement a tourist tax FFS, get a life and get back on the Samsung 

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

7 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

All my income qualifies under Article 20 US-Thai DTA and cannot be taxed in Thailand.

You will still (IF this goes ahead) be required to lodge an income tax return, declaring exactly what you have said above. If the Thai RD agrees with you, they will issue you a tax certificate/clerance.  Or they might disagree and send you a bill ???? 

Negative. You're not required to file a Thai tax return if you don't have income that's taxable. So, my Air Force pension and Social Security payment are "exclusively" taxable by the US. Thus, it's not taxable by Thailand, and so no income tax return required.

 

But, my IRA required minimum distribution *IS* taxable by Thailand, as per the DTA, they're the primary taxing authority for IRA distributions. Yes, I also have to declare this IRA payment on my US tax return, per the savings clause. And, per the treaty, I'll get a tax credit for the Thai taxes, thus having a no net tax increase/decrease between the two taxing authorities (yes, there can be some net differences, depending on tax ratios -- but this thread has already become too unbearable to elaborate).

[stat]

1 hour ago, BE88 said:

Wrong, if you are resident in Thailand all your income is taxable unless you can demonstrate that your income has already been taxed in another country that has an agreement with Thailand

Pls add a souce for your claim, my understanding is different but I could be wrong. I agree there is a risk that it could turn out that way but currently there is no indication of said happening I know of.

Edited October 9, 2023 by stat

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, Sheryl said:

But if no tax due, no return required, yes?

You would think so......

 

But here's a quaint quote re do you have to file, or not:

Quote

All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons)

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/thailand/individual/tax-administration

 

[noobexpat]

20 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Negative. You're not required to file a Thai tax return if you don't have income that's taxable. 

Whether its taxable is irrelevant...its assessable. So why wouldn't a tax return not be needed?

 

DTA is not the answer. That is the outcome, after the tax return.

 

[jerrymahoney]

10 minutes ago, JimGant said:

You would think so......

 

But here's a quaint quote re do you have to file, or not:

Yes and from PwC:

 

Individual - Foreign tax relief and tax treaties
Last reviewed - 12 July 2023
Foreign tax relief
Foreign taxes cannot be taken as a credit against Thai taxes unless permitted under a double tax treaty (DTT).

 

[JimGant]

8 minutes ago, noobexpat said:

Whether its taxable is irrelevant...its assessable. So why wouldn't a tax return not be needed?

'Cause assessable equals taxable -- and income excluded under a DTA is no longer assessable, for taxation purposes -- nor taxable, for assessable purposes. Thus, no tax return needed. Phew.

[Mangotango]

For all you people arguing about who has to file a tax return, anybody with assessable income of more than 60,000 baht has to file a tax return.  Assessable income is defined as taxable income.