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Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I


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Posted
On 11/8/2023 at 7:56 PM, Dah fahrang said:

Hi,  UK State Pension recipients. You will never get a P60 from HMRC! Don't hold your breath!

Reason is that the UK State Pension is not taxable. It is considered by HMRC as a state benefit.

Example: if you are lucky to receive the full basic UK State Pension - about £200 per week, that is about £10,400 a year. It is below the £12,570 2023 HMRC Personal Income Tax Allowance threshold. 

However... your UK State Pension is counted as income. So, if you receive additional UK sourced private pension(s), the UK State Pension of £10,400 is added to whatever ££ you receive from your UK sourced private pension(s).

If the aggregated money from the UK State Pension plus private pension(s) exceeds the 2023 Personal Income Tax Allowance of £12,570, then any/all income you receive above the £12,570 is liable to UK tax at the relevant current tax rates. HMRC, via a 'Notice of Coding' will instruct your private pension provider(s) to deduct tax at source from any amount above £12,570 from your private pension but definitely never from the UK State Pension. Your private pension provider will receive the relevant tax code from HMRC for the tax year, and will deduct tax at the source. It is your private pension provider(s) that must, by law, issue an annual P60, but never HMRC!

 

You may find link this helpful. I was quite astonished by it. If you register to use the UK Government Gateway, you will find both notice of coding and tax deducted information from all your private pension(s). The information goes back several years, and is downloadable. 

https://www.gov.uk/check-income-tax-current-year

 

It is taxable and is counted as income if it takes you over the personal allowance.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

It is taxable and is counted as income if it takes you over the personal allowance.

The state pension is still under the PA threshold, even after the increase in April.

Posted
19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The state pension is still under the PA threshold, even after the increase in April.

Interesting article on Frozen Personal Allowances (Frozen until 2027/28) & the impact on State Pension.... 

https://theprogenygroup.com/blog/how-the-personal-allowance-freeze-might-impact-you/#:~:text=If the OBR's projections are,personal allowance in 2027%2F28.

 

If the OBR’s projections are accurate, then by 2027/28 the difference between the new state pension and personal allowance will be about £360 – less than a tenth as much. The OBR’s estimate only needs to undershoot by 0.8% a year for the new state pension to be larger than the personal allowance in 2027/28

 

 

 

I think it would make too much "Noise" if the government allowed the State Pension to go above the Personal Allowance & pensioners started to be taxed on it, so if the OBR did get their predictions wrong & it looked like it was going to go over it, I'd expect them to either limit the Pension increase OR increase the allowance. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted
28 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Interesting article on Frozen Personal Allowances (Frozen until 2027/28) & the impact on State Pension.... 

https://theprogenygroup.com/blog/how-the-personal-allowance-freeze-might-impact-you/#:~:text=If the OBR's projections are,personal allowance in 2027%2F28.

 

If the OBR’s projections are accurate, then by 2027/28 the difference between the new state pension and personal allowance will be about £360 – less than a tenth as much. The OBR’s estimate only needs to undershoot by 0.8% a year for the new state pension to be larger than the personal allowance in 2027/28

 

 

 

I think it would make too much "Noise" if the government allowed the State Pension to go above the Personal Allowance & pensioners started to be taxed on it, so if the OBR did get their predictions wrong & it looked like it was going to go over it, I'd expect them to either limit the Pension increase OR increase the allowance. 

 

 

 

 

Exactly, and you know which it will be.

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Posted
21 hours ago, Terek said:

Exactly these obstacles, all system with it's rates are aimed for not prosperity but to keeping poor in these miserable profit amounts and kill any desire to earn more. All this system is rigged in favour or already rich people who pays mostly small capital gains tax. Rates should be fixed for everyone with some big zero tax allowance. But I  would go even further and dismantle all personal income tax altogether and focus on different taxes, because it's too much hassle for everyone, a lot of people are waisting their time on all it, including all the consulting  business, instead of doing some real productive job.

Have to say I agree with Terek. The amount of wasted time and energy spent shuffling bits of paper around by civil servants amounts to little more than jobs for the boys in many areas. I'm referring here to personal taxation on individuals, not corporate or wealth taxes. Think of the cost to the state of running this whole system. I've tried looking for figures, but with no success. If anyone can find some hard numbers I'd like to see them.

 

High personal income taxes are an obstacle to employment. Many people in western nations see no point in taking a job when - after tax deduction - it earns them only a few quid more than they'd make on the dole.

 

The personal tax system is convoluted and opaque, and as Terek rightly said, it helps create more jobs for 'tax advisors' and 'specialists'. Just read the comments in this thread and you'll see how well liked and trusted they are.

 

Have you guys ever heard of the 'Robin Hood Tax'? It was a UK campaign inspired by the scandals of the global banking crisis in 2010, where big banks were bailed out by taxpayers, and the bankers continued paying themselves million pound bonuses throughout.

The campaign proposed a small tax on all banking transactions that did not include members of the public (Bonds, Derivatives, Currency speculation etc). The tax amount proposed was a piffling .005% of the banks revenues on these transactions. The sum it would raise was reckoned to be in excess of 100 Billion GBP per annum. Almost half the total UK Income tax intake.

 

If you doubled it to .010% (and fired all the income tax collectors and paper pushers) it would  probably approach the total income tax take in the UK, meaning wages could be zero rated for tax.

 

Of course the proposal was met with derision and disgust from the bankers, and eventually ran out of support. Even the website the campaigners set up is dead. But there's still one great video left on Youtube, featuring Bill Nighy as a banker being grilled about the proposal. One of my all time faves.

Check it out here;

 

In a world where AI is predicted to replace all jobs in the not too distant future, and where Universal Basic Income (UBI) is again being proposed for that scenario - perhaps Income Tax is a dead duck anyway.

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Posted
8 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Anurak has a positive meaning something like conservation.

Maybe in Thai.

But in the UK/IRL it has a rather different translation.

Maybe you're not a Brit and don't get that.

Lighten up FFS.

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Posted
15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The state pension is still under the PA threshold, even after the increase in April.

 

What does PA mean in the context of your post? (Not all countries use the same terminology and acronyms in matters of income taxation and this topic is not specific to one country)

Posted
1 hour ago, Puccini said:

 

What does PA mean in the context of your post? (Not all countries use the same terminology and acronyms in matters of income taxation and this topic is not specific to one country)

Sorry, PA = Personal Allowance.

Posted
3 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

Maybe in Thai.

But in the UK/IRL it has a rather different translation.

Maybe you're not a Brit and don't get that.

Lighten up FFS.

 

Why lighten up?

 

He simply explained to you what Anurak means, without any ill will. 

 

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Posted
13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

An interesting perspective.

Expats are confused?

You think? 

 

 

 

Yep that's a perspective all right. interesting? Uh no.... Did Twinkle Toes tell me anything I didn't already know? Uh no.... Imagine what kind of hero you could be if you had clear and distinct information about a certain subject that people could actually use? then you have Youtube. 

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Posted

This may have been posted before, in which case SORRY.

 

But I thought that many European countries have a "no double taxing" treaty with foreign countries?

Which is how most rich Europeans / companies escape high home taxes, in favor of low foreign taxes?

Posted
7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

An interesting perspective.

Expats are confused?

You think? 

 

 

 

I get this guys emails on a near daily basis. That's really too often IMHO.

Last week he sent one out reccomending Malaysia as a retirement destination - fair enough. But one of the points made was 'Pensions are not taxed in Malaysia'.

If you're a Malaysian receiving a Malaysian pension that may be true. But his emails are aimed at Expats. Expat pensions being remitted to Malaysia are NOT tax exempt, as he sweepingly stated. They MAY be tax exempt under certain conditions, primarily if they've ALREADY been taxed in a DTA partner nation.

I wrote to him pointing this out.

Still waiting on a retraction or correction.

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Posted
7 hours ago, hondoelsinore said:

Yep that's a perspective all right. interesting? Uh no.... Did Twinkle Toes tell me anything I didn't already know? Uh no.... Imagine what kind of hero you could be if you had clear and distinct information about a certain subject that people could actually use? then you have Youtube. 

Twinkle toes?

  • Haha 1
Posted
23 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

A real long read about the changes that are happening

 

Hey thanks for this, very interesting and it shows that it won't be that bad as the previous 149 pages are predicting. 

Posted

My take is at the very least eventually most Thailand tax resident expats are going to at least be required to FILE a Thai tax return even if they will owe nothing.

I find this very not thrilling. 

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Posted
55 minutes ago, WhatsNext said:

 

Hey thanks for this, very interesting and it shows that it won't be that bad as the previous 149 pages are predicting. 

I read the same thing and really don't get why you think  that post is so positive.

  • Like 2
Posted
1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

My take is at the very least eventually most Thailand tax resident expats are going to at least be required to FILE a Thai tax return even if they will owe nothing.

I find this very not thrilling. 

 

 

I disagree - if you are describing full time expats as 'tax residents'.

 

DTA's protect the vast majority - and can you really imagine the Thai authorities can handle a million? new tax returns in 2024?

Posted
5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I read the same thing and really don't get why you think  that post is so positive.

 

I got as far as

 

Quote

An article in yesterday's Prachachart Thurakit suggests the RD is starting to walk this back a bit but not giving up on

 

The word ' suggests ' was enough for me.

Posted
3 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I disagree - if you are describing full time expats as 'tax residents'.

 

DTA's protect the vast majority - and can you really imagine the Thai authorities can handle a million? new tax returns in 2024?

That's ridiculous!

The definition of Thailand tax resident is very simple.

At least 180 days or more of the year being in Thailand.

Having a DTA is a thing but it's not magic.

The Thai tax authorities would need to see your foreign details to see in which way you qualify or not.

Each nation that has one has a different one.

This is going to be a field day for expat tax consultants here.

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Posted
Just now, hotandsticky said:

 

 

DTA does not need to be magic  -  it is the law.

 

I repeat, I will never pay tax in Thailand - and nothing that I have read tells me  that I will need to.

You're conflating paying tax in Thailand with being required to FILE a tax return in Thailand. 

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Posted
10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

This is going to be a field day for expat tax consultants here.

 

Why ?
 

The forms for filing a tax return are available in both Thai and English. They are currently ammending the forms to include an extra Section to list income that is covered by a DTA.

 

Where people might need the services of a tax consultant is if they are having difficulty with certain aspects of the income that they remit to Thailand. I'll leave you to work out what those difficulties might be.

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