Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[mran66]

4 hours ago, Felton Jarvis said:

Many of us will be saying “Hello” to Hun Manet. Cambodia has looked good for quite a while. Easy terms, minimal paperwork.

 

Anyone actually know how the taxation in Cambodia is for the non-Cambodia source income, esp capital income?

 

If indeed the worst case would happen i.e Thailand suddenly would start taxing residents of global income, need to start looking for new tax residence.  If only for the part of income sent to Thailand, maybe could handle as in reality can circumvent for large part, but if indeed they would require tax on all income regardless of whether sent here or not, that would be a bummer.

 

China at least used to be  good, only taxing China source income, but don't really fancy going back there, thus would need to look at other places with good tax regime for non-local source income

[JimTripper]

11 hours ago, seajae said:

so does this mean all incoming money transfers from abroad, if so will they will be taxing pensions as well when they are transferred from other countries, sounds more like a huge money grab by the government if it does, they should only be able to tax money earnt from Thailand not savings etc that were/are earned in other countries. This will be challenged as it is outright theft if the money has nothing to do with Thailand earnings, only the country where it is earned or banked have the right to any taxes from it, the finer details are needed to make sure what they plan to do is legal and not jut a way to rip farangs off 

May be the reason they want money transferred to a Thai account for the income method on the retirement visas. I used to think it was to help Thai banks, but taxation is a much better reason.

 

New people using the 800k method would be taxed also. I wonder if people with existing deposits will be grandfathered in, or will they do some sort of retroactive taxation.

Edited September 18, 2023 by JimTripper

[Gknrd]

The screws keep on tightening, won't be long now..  Like the old saying" what are treaties good for". to be broken. 

Or in Thailand re-written.

[Kalasin Jo]

10 hours ago, jvs said:

On the other hand,if you have to pay tax here it should also give you some rights?

Quite. But most of us neither have rights nor an immigration status as resident. A permission to stay that has to be renewed every year satisfying the same conditions as previous years and even then being at the discretion of whichever IO you are dealing with is not a status of residency.

Europe, including even after brexit the UK, does offer residency as a foreigner living in one of those countries after a number of years, including for their family members. I'm a Brit and my wife, who is Thai, was granted French residency with the right to work in France because I had met the conditions and been a " permanent resident" for some years.. Here there is no chance of me being granted permanent residency although married to a Thai citizen.

 

Of course with that residency comes an obligation to join the French healthcare system AND register with the French tax authorities and make tax declarations there paying any tax assessed as due.

 

The other issue is that you don't have to have immigration status as resident to be considered tax resident. In ,ost countries the basic rule is that if you live in the country for more than 180 days a year you are considered tax resident

 

To me this seems grossly unfair. Tax status should mirror immigration status. 

 

So Thailand if you want to tax us on income wherever it arises I urge you to give us residency for immigration purposes and stop requiring us to apply each and every year for extensions of stay, the forever 90 day reporting throughout each and  every year that we live here and the requirement that our Thai spouses must register us as an alien residing in the homes that usually we have provided and share with them. Also give us the right to ownership of the land on which those homes are built.

 

I will end with a question: does Thailand have a double taxation treaty with the UK, which is where my ( pension ) income arises so that we will only be taxed in one of them? That was the case between France and the UK, so I was only required to declare and be taxed by France. Now, as I no longer live in France, I am declaring in and subject to UK taxation by HMRC.

[JimTripper]

14 minutes ago, bob smith said:

Another thing. If forced to pay tax on money earned from abroad in Thailand does that mean we can access the healthcare system free of charge? As my hard earned money will be supposedly going directly to fund it. 
 

also national parks, will I be getting in free or at subsidized rates with all the other tax paying Thais? 
 

so many questions that will need to be answered, and if I don’t like the answers then I will be hopping on a plane with all my riches. Thailand can kiss my behind! 

No, you won’t be getting any of that. That would make you equal. The whole point is you pay more.

[bob smith]

3 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

No, you won’t be getting any of that. That would make you equal. The whole point is you pay more.

Well it shall be a case of the flying v’s if that day ever does come to pass.

 

the world is my oyster and Thailand ain’t nuthin but a side dish, baby.. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by bob smith

[phetphet]

11 hours ago, freeworld said:

Its not a money grab if it follows the law or new laws are implemented for govt to get new sources of income.

 

No doubt foreigners residing in Thailand and making use of govt services and infrastructure should be paying tax in Thailand, this is a fuction of the world order.

 

I thought everyone is agreeable to paying their fair share? This is the mantra spewed by many.

 

Its all about being free.

Why should foreigners be paying tax in Thailand if their home country has a double tax agreement with Thailand?

Government services and infrastructure?  What a laugh. The electricity blacks out all the time, We have water trucks to deliver water because water pressure is too low to reach us, the roads are full of potholes, and flood every time it rains. They want to charge you double to enter National Parks

 

It's alright paying a fair share if you are getting something for it.

 

They'll probably get more revenue from expats because many Thais don't pay tax anyway.

 

I wonder if they will change the rule on not taxing income brought in if earned the year before?

Because that could also be a way around it.

Also. Bringing a lump sum in readies each time  someone returns from home, could put them under any earnings limit.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by phetphet

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, Gknrd said:

The screws keep on tightening, won't be long now..  Like the old saying" what are treaties good for". to be broken. 

Or in Thailand re-written.

This is a Pheu Thai move (Srettha confirmed it on BP), just like they do to others, they love backstabbing people. They have to pay for their massive future vote buying scheme, best choice of people to tax to pay for it? Obviously screwing the foreigners is the easest choice. They want us out? That's fine with me. I can't see any scenario where they come out ahead, but good luck.

[TravelerEastWest]

9 hours ago, malt25 said:

"for tax residents "  Am I missing something or does this not qualify the situation ?  An expat residing here who is not earning any income & not paying tax should not be involved.

He would still likely be tax resident

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

11 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Could be they claim it & force you to reclaim it via a Tax Return in Thailand or your home country or both. 

So, does that mean all money transfers will see a "deduction for tax" on it as the banks collect the money to pass on the the Tax Department?

[mran66]

13 minutes ago, phetphet said:

Why should foreigners be paying tax in Thailand if their home country has a double tax agreement with Thailand?

Government services and infrastructure?  What a laugh. The electricity blacks out all the time, We have water trucks to deliver water because water pressure is too low to reach us, the roads are full of potholes, and flood every time it rains. They want to charge you double to enter National Parks

 

It's alright paying a fair share if you are getting something for it.

 

They'll probably get more revenue from expats because many Thais don't pay tax anyway.

 

I wonder if they will change the rule on not taxing income brought in if earned the year before?

Because that could also be a way around it.

 

well, Thailand could not care less about fairness, they take all they can if they can. Especially so from foreigners, but basically they treat their own nationals pretty much the same, taking advantage whenever/wherever there is a chance.

 

The only question is whether they conclude that they could get more overall by changing tax policies, for sure they know there will be downsides as well if they change the policy - question is if they assess upsides be more than downsides overall.

 

As commented earlier in this thread, very very interesting to see what e.g property developers will comment on the proposal. Also, don't forget that the government is heavily influenced by the wealthy, who for sure make much of their income outside of Thailand (I would actually assume that the reason the policy is as it is, is that the wealty have influenced govt to keep it that way so that their overseas investment income would be tax free). Thus, govt will get a lot of resistance from the powerful too...

[Thorgal]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

Where do you get this idea from?

Which country in the world has the right to convert private money transfers into taxable income ?

 

You can be a tax resident in Thailand after 180 days on foreign sourced income, but only if this income derived from abroad is remitted to Thailand in the same year it is received.

 

While submitting a Thai income tax declaration form you also need to submit a legalized (foreign) bank statement from where the money was transferred. If it's from a private bank, no problem.

If it's directly from your employer or pension fund it's classified as taxable Thai income derived from abroad that is remitted to Thailand in the same year as it is received. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Thorgal

[mran66]

4 hours ago, BE88 said:

Don't forget that there is also an increase in deposits bank planned as Big Joke declared to the press.

We have happy days ahead.

...don't forget that I recall it was Mr Big Joke who was behind changing the retirement visa requirement from "800k for 2mo" to "800k for 2+3 mo + 400k for 7mo".

 

As far as I can see, the primary if not only reason for that change was to encourage more retirees to skip the legal route, and get the 10+k bribe per renewal to immigration officers.

 

Seems Big Joke still thinks too many people skipping the agency approach, and sticking to legal way, thus he need to increase the requirements further to get more people to bribe the immigration staff and forget the bank approach

[Kalasin Jo]

11 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

Thailand to tourists—please come.

Thailand to expats—please leave.

Wasn't it always? I've become ever more conscious how Thailand is very happy to welcome tourists but is institutionally rather xenophobic when it comes to foreigners wishing to live here, make homes, marry Thais. Those who do, often supporting not just a Thai spouse who may already have children and with whom they may have children together too, but their Thai families too and I don't mean just financially. There are many things we do for our Thai relatives by marriage, including emotional support and encouragement, not just provide financial  support. Do we get any institutional recognition? No, we are treated as perpetual foreign visitors, farangs ( a term which I understand  is fair skin and hairy specific with an implication that we are in some way unclean because of that and is not used for other non Thai Asians ). We are lesser beings than Thais, from our immigration status to dual pricing. It doesn't make a jot of difference how long we've been here or that we have family and demonstrated commitment over many years.

[thaibreaker]

9 hours ago, Quit said:

If you are in the 65 K pm category, you pay 25 percent income tax here. So it might actually be better than at home.

Far, far from it. In my country, the taxes on a 65.000 baht monthly pension, is under 2 %.

Yes, you read that correctly.

 

The question I might ask, is if these new rules will make you have to pay the dividend. That would be devastating for most foreigners.

[Kalasin Jo]

42 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

No, you won’t be getting any of that. That would make you equal. The whole point is you pay more.

Sad isn't it. But to be expected. Thailand wants to take but give nothing in return on every level in regard to foreigners.

[Startmeup]

20 minutes ago, mran66 said:

As commented earlier in this thread, very very interesting to see what e.g property developers will comment on the proposal

The new PM is the founder of Sansiri group if im not mistaken which is one of the countries most renowned and successful property developers. He has also been accused of tax evasion and as one of the richest men in the country is very concerned about inequality he said in a recent article relating to this change.

[bob smith]

7 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

Wasn't it always? I've become ever more conscious how Thailand is very happy to welcome tourists but is institutionally rather xenophobic when it comes to foreigners wishing to live here, make homes, marry Thais. Those who do, often supporting not just a Thai spouse who may already have children and with whom they may have children together too, but their Thai families too and I don't mean just financially. There are many things we do for our Thai relatives by marriage, including emotional support and encouragement, not just provide financial  support. Do we get any institutional recognition? No, we are treated as perpetual foreign visitors, farangs ( a term which I understand  is fair skin and hairy specific with an implication that we are in some way unclean because of that and is not used for other non Thai Asians ). We are lesser beings than Thais, from our immigration status to dual pricing. It doesn't make a jot of difference how long we've been here or that we have family and demonstrated commitment over many years.

I agree with everything that you said.

 

Thailand is indeed a horribly xenophobic place for long term residents. They only like it when they are getting our money. Well they won’t be getting another dime from me if these ridiculous policies do come to pass. It’s their loss, not mine.

[TheAppletons]

"The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand."

 

Shouldn't be an issue for most retired expats.  

[Dust]

2 hours ago, dannyb123 said:

Where exactly does it say this, I've not been able to find it

It probably came from this site thailandelitevisas.com: 
 

Quote

Elite Visa holders are exempt from paying taxes on their foreign income, providing significant savings, especially in Thailand’s progressive tax system, where higher earners pay a higher tax rate.

But thats not the official thailand elite website and I can't find this claim on the official site so take his claim with a huuuuge grain of salt.  

 

[Jenkins9039]

9 hours ago, h3ith said:

The Google translation refers to "income due to work duties or business conducted abroad" or "because of property".

 

No it doesn't 

Clause 1 applies to the new tax setting.

Which references section 41 paragraph 3 here : https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

 

Basically 180 days = creamed 

 

 

[Jenkins9039]

6 minutes ago, Dust said:

It probably came from this site thailandelitevisas.com: 
 

But thats not the official thailand elite website and I can't find this claim on the official site so take his claim with a huuuuge grain of salt.  

 

They scrubbed it, was on the old site back in 2019.

[Jenkins9039]

9 minutes ago, Startmeup said:

The new PM is the founder of Sansiri group if im not mistaken which is one of the countries most renowned and successful property developers. He has also been accused of tax evasion and as one of the richest men in the country is very concerned about inequality he said in a recent article relating to this change.

He's resolving equality, by making us all equally miserable. 

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, bob smith said:

Another thing. If forced to pay tax on money earned from abroad in Thailand does that mean we can access the healthcare system free of charge? As my hard earned money will be supposedly going directly to fund it. 
 

also national parks, will I be getting in free or at subsidized rates with all the other tax paying Thais? 

1. No.

2. No.

[khunjeff]

8 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Maybe, but the LTR/WP differs from other visas such as Thailand Elite in that tax exemption is advertised as one of its main benefits.

It's not just advertised as a benefit, it was also legally implemented - Royal Decree no. 743, gazetted on 23 May 2022 ("Decree Issued in Accordance with the Revenue Code Concerning the Reduction of Tax Rates and Exemptions (No. 257") made the exemption official.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by khunjeff

[Gknrd]

2 hours ago, bob smith said:

I think it’s just another case of little Thailand flexing it’s muscles and thinking they are bigger than they actually are on the world stage.

 

just wait for the inevitable flip flop in the coming days once they see just how negatively this has been received by the expat community. 

They are doing it because of China loosing its manufacturing Jobs that are being relocated to other countries. IMHO.. Doesn't have much to do with retiree's. The problem is the retiree's will get caught up in it as a by product. Thailand will squeeze all they can get out of the people and companies coming into Thailand. The retiree's are a throw away non essential part of this equation. With rich companies and employees in Thailand the coffers will top up and the retiree's will be pushed out. Win , Win for Thai elite.  

Won't be long now, a few more years and 95% of all retiree's will be pushed out or driven out because of discrimination and fearful of their lives..  

Just like China..

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Gknrd

[Jenkins9039]

1 minute ago, khunjeff said:

It's not just advertised as a benefit, it was also legally implemented - Royal Decree no. 743, gazetted on 23 May 2022 ("Decree Issued in

Accordance with the Revenue Code Concerning the Reduction of Tax Rates and Exemptions (No. 257") made the exemption official.

Elite was sold as tax free also...

[Dogmatix]

35 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

Which country in the world has the right to convert private money transfers into taxable income ?

 

You can be a tax resident in Thailand after 180 days on foreign sourced income, but only if this income derived from abroad is remitted to Thailand in the same year it is received.

 

While submitting a Thai income tax declaration form you also need to submit a legalized (foreign) bank statement from where the money was transferred. If it's from a private bank, no problem.

If it's directly from your employer or pension fund it's classified as taxable Thai income derived from abroad that is remitted to Thailand in the same year as it is received. 

 

 

That is not what the RD is saying. They are saying that any overseas sourced income parked in a bank account for a number of years and remitted to Thailand is potentially taxable in the year it comes in. 

[Jenkins9039]

Ref Elite (2019)

 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20230608060701/https://www.thailandelite-direct.com/en/faqs

 

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, GeorgeCross said:

this would mean you would be liable for tax on all income for ALL of the time you have spent in thailand and would have to pay all of it before you could actually get a single $ into your thai bank account!! for some that could be many $100Ks. yikes. that would be madness, all transfers would stop immediately, people would spend down their thai balances, sell up and leave.

Yes. It seems to mean that income earned abroad since you became a tax resident of Thailand from anything, including bank interest, will be taxable whenever remitted to Thailand. Presumably if already taxed in a double tax treaty country, the onus is on you to prove that.  How would you do that? No one knows because it is not a new law.  It is merely a new interpretation or a misinterpretation of an existing law.  All existing supporting regulations don't help because they support the interpretation that only the previous years remitted income is taxable.  So probably you will need tax documents from overseas for the exact amount that you remit showing you have paid tax on that.  Documents of course to be certified by the overseas tax authority, legalized by a Thai embassy in that country and then translated by a certified translator and notarized by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.