2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

The tax reciprocity treaties cover retirement money.

Maybe for the US (and even then you could be liable for tax in Thailand if the tax rate is higher here) but UK State & Private pensions are not covered by the UK/TH DTA.

 

I do think you're right in that nobody should be getting stressed about it until we have more clarity but I do think people should consider bringing money over before 1/1/24 and delaying any planned remittances after that date until we have clarification. 

 

(REPOST)

Not only is this probably the dumbest thing any Thai Govt has done to Expats, if they do want retired/married Expats to live here and want more to come, it is also the biggest discrimatory thing they have ever done to non-Thais.  Imposing income taxes on 'visitors' who bring their own money into the country, clearly shows how little regard that the Thai Govt has for Expats. When the Govt Electricity Agency recently announced a big increase in their prices next year, the Thai PM immediately jumped all over them.  But when the Govt Taxation Agency announces that they are going to tax the pensions and savings of all Expats who live in Thailand, when they bring their money into Thailand, there is nothing - crickets.  This is despite the massive amount of social media 'coverage' this matter is getting ever since the announcement in September. 

 

If I have an income tax burden imposed on myself that ends up being what it looks like it will be, then we are leaving Thailand for sure.  I am lucky - we dont own a house and we are not 'locked' into Thailand - I feel sorry for those that are and who also feel 'insulted' and 'offended' by this possible income tax imposition.  All of the Visa impositions are going to remain, but they are not going to give me any additional legal rights, or Govt services, and all the other racist crap like dual-pricing they impose on me will remain.  And let me tell you, my Thai Wife is a lot more angry about it - but being Thai she just keeps that to her self and me. 

 

Maybe for <20K a year I will stay - but only for the Thai Wife and Family. But if my calculations are correct and they demand I pay income taxes on all money remitted into Thailand - unless I can PROVE to Somchai at the local Tax Office that the money has already been taxed or is exempt, then we are out of here and will going forward be visiting - for less than 180 days a year. 

 

Yes these numbers below are worst case scenarios, but as things stand right now, they are valid assumptions and they iuse the current official taxation tables. Sure there is maybe another 100K of allowances I can 'claim', but they make very little difference when the numbers get bigger.  When planning on bringing into Thailand a large amount of money, say 5 million or 10 million Bajht, only an idiot would do so without absolute certainty. This is not a Visa matter that can be easily dealt with one way or the other. If I am hit with income taxes not planned for, I cannot just leave and take my money with me - it is locked in here. 

 

6 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

But when the Govt Taxation Agency announces that they are going to tax the pensions and savings of all Expats who live in Thailand, when they bring their money into Thailand, there is nothing - crickets. 

Ehh, actually they didn't announce that at all. 

What they announced was a change in the way they would deal with foreign remittances or whatever. The fact that foreign tax residents (Expats in your terminology) will be caught up in the change is a consequence but I doubt any sane person would suggest it was specifically aimed at every  "Expat"......

 

You have posted some interesting thoughts/questions on this subject so not sure why you "repost" something which is risible........

14 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

No they're not, the onus is on you to file a return IF you have taxable income (which is exactly how it is today), the Revenue may or may not look at people who make large transfers but I can guarantee they won't look at somebody who sends <60K THB pa as they know there is no tax to pay.

 

FWIW I doubt they'd look at anybody sending <300K as even if there is Tax due it's not worth their effort to collect the <5K tax you might have to pay on it. 

  

 

Ditto - and that is the issue many Expats are missing when being over optimistic (glass half full) about this matter.  Taxation is not like Immigration etc. - the penalties are far more severe and no bride/agent can be used to solve the matter.   Additionally, it is not a year to year matter - the Tax Dept can (if they want) go backwards over many years, and then they can hit you with fines for not lodging a tax return, fines for not paying income taxes, interest of 2% per month on those income taxes not paid, and any additional penalties they think applicable. Plus if the Tax Dept decides to do so, there can be police charges, court appearances, jail time, and deportation.  As Capone found out, you dont screw with the Tax Dept.

 

The Thai Tax Dept will be asking the banks to advise of any account holder who has remitted over a certain amount into Thailand (500K? 1M? 2M?).  Then, over time, they will check that list against their tax lodgement records - they can take as long as they like - several years. So it is not a matter of 'keeping low' and getting away with it - in the end they will likely catch you - and when they do, it will hurt severely. 

 

International Guide on Criminalization of Tax Offenses | Thailand | Global Guide to Criminalization of Tax Offenses | Baker McKenzie Resource Hub

According to section 37 bis of the Revenue Code, any person intentionally fails to file tax return forms to evade tax shall be subject to an imprisonment of up to one year, or a fine of up to BHT 200,000, or both.

 

Yes I am hoping this matter will be resolved in our favour and that the Thai Tax Dept will clearly state that Expats pensions and savings etc. are not taxable income.  But if they do not do that, then only a fool would bring into Thailand any more than is absolutely necessary in 2024.  I plan to do just that (after bringing in extra funds before 31 December), while I wait and see what happens regarding this new taxation rule. Anyone bringing in a large amount of money in 2024, thinking that it will all be fine and good is being very unwise.  Likewise, anyone packing up and leaving Thailand before July 2024 is also being unwise.  

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The average farang retiree lives here on much less than 1 mill, surveys in this forum over the years confirm that.

     I would not rely on an AN forum survey to 'confirm' anything whatsoever.  With many threads, you see the same two or three dozen forum members commenting, with a few others thrown in.  

     With such a small number contributing regularly, you can and do get an unfair take on things.   A good example is real estate, which is almost completely negative on the forum regarding buying vs. renting.  I, and a few others, sometimes try to show the positive side to owning in Thailand but our posts are usually met with derision.  I remember some years ago posting that my partner and I had never lost any money selling properties in Thailand.  The comments were scathing, with some accusing me of lying.   Who needs that? 

    I do still comment because I think it's important to see more than just one, negative side all the time when the topic comes up.  Recently, I had to pipe up when a member posted that condo projects all go falling down at 5 years.   People with a negative experience with something, such as real estate, are far more likely to post on a topic but that can, and does, leave a false impression of a topic. 

   Another good example is Pattaya, itself.   The comments, again often from a relatively small number of regular posters, are far more negative than positive on the forum, which can also leave a false impression.  Not long ago, we had a forum member post that Pattaya was responsible for 90% of the crime in Thailand.  When I called him on it and asked him to provide statistics, he responded that this was his impression, having been reading Asean Now. 

     I don't know what the average income is for expats in Thailand, but I do know an Asean Now survey likely won't know the correct answer, either.

    

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I might worry about that when it actually happens. Until then meh.

 

By focusing on what I do know. Limiting my remitted income to my Government Pension. I might be hit with an annual tax bill somewhere between zero baht and 80,000 baht.

 

To give that some perspective, I could do 179 days in Thailand and save myself somewhere between zero and 80,000 baht.

 

Spend the rest of the year in the UK and fork out,

 

Accommodation costs - zero

 

Emirates return flight - 50,000 baht.

 

Hire car UK - Conservative estimate, 30,000 baht x 6 = 180,000 Baht.

 

Fuel - Almost double the Thai price.

 

Household utilities - At least double Thai prices.

 

Way more than any potential Thai tax bill.

 

Or I could bounce around SE Asia in nearby Countries  - Which is also going to cost way more than any potential Thai tax bill.

 

Or I could save money, by accepting that things have changed, and at about 80,000 baht a year, I still think it is a good deal.

Just wonder what you'd say if your tax liability was between 0 and 800000 ?

28 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Maybe for the US (and even then you could be liable for tax in Thailand if the tax rate is higher here) but UK State & Private pensions are not covered by the UK/TH DTA.

 

I do think you're right in that nobody should be getting stressed about it until we have more clarity but I do think people should consider bringing money over before 1/1/24 and delaying any planned remittances after that date until we have clarification. 

 

The US/Thai  tax agreement clearly states that "State pensions, private pensions and income from annuities can only be taxed at the country where they occurred. These are bulky PDF documents and I have not read any from your countries. I am sure at the very least they contain that any tax paid at your country would be credited toward taxes owned in Thailand.

But as I said Thailand is not about to shoot itself on the foot. The purpose of this is to raise revenue , and mostly directed at Thais who earn income abroad. It is not an unusual or unreasonable policy.

Most every other country has a similar one , and frankly I was surprised that Thailand did not have such tax provisions. 

But at the same time  all these countries  want to increase investment in their country, not to decrease it and as such have made provisions toward that goal. 

. More recently Thailand enacted the Long stay retirement visa to induce investment, taxing such investment would be counterproductive. 

 In many other countries that I looked into retiring in, reduced tax rates are offered toward those who transfer their retirement pension there. In Greece it is 7% , subtract taxes you paid in your country, and you probably pay zero. Greece only one example and not the only one, 

Thailand  is not about to make itself vastly uncompetitive , remember the goal is to increase revenue, not to decrease it.  

42 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

(REPOST)

Not only is this probably the dumbest thing any Thai Govt has done to Expats, if they do want retired/married Expats to live here and want more to come, it is also the biggest discrimatory thing they have ever done to non-Thais.  Imposing income taxes on 'visitors' who bring their own money into the country, clearly shows how little regard that the Thai Govt has for Expats. When the Govt Electricity Agency recently announced a big increase in their prices next year, the Thai PM immediately jumped all over them.  But when the Govt Taxation Agency announces that they are going to tax the pensions and savings of all Expats who live in Thailand, when they bring their money into Thailand, there is nothing - crickets.  This is despite the massive amount of social media 'coverage' this matter is getting ever since the announcement in September. 

 

If I have an income tax burden imposed on myself that ends up being what it looks like it will be, then we are leaving Thailand for sure.  I am lucky - we dont own a house and we are not 'locked' into Thailand - I feel sorry for those that are and who also feel 'insulted' and 'offended' by this possible income tax imposition.  All of the Visa impositions are going to remain, but they are not going to give me any additional legal rights, or Govt services, and all the other racist crap like dual-pricing they impose on me will remain.  And let me tell you, my Thai Wife is a lot more angry about it - but being Thai she just keeps that to her self and me. 

 

Maybe for <20K a year I will stay - but only for the Thai Wife and Family. But if my calculations are correct and they demand I pay income taxes on all money remitted into Thailand - unless I can PROVE to Somchai at the local Tax Office that the money has already been taxed or is exempt, then we are out of here and will going forward be visiting - for less than 180 days a year. 

 

Yes these numbers below are worst case scenarios, but as things stand right now, they are valid assumptions and they iuse the current official taxation tables. Sure there is maybe another 100K of allowances I can 'claim', but they make very little difference when the numbers get bigger.  When planning on bringing into Thailand a large amount of money, say 5 million or 10 million Bajht, only an idiot would do so without absolute certainty. This is not a Visa matter that can be easily dealt with one way or the other. If I am hit with income taxes not planned for, I cannot just leave and take my money with me - it is locked in here. 

 

Would someone know how low these brackets have been applicable, and what the [real] inflation has been since. This is a very dirty trick by ALL governments, who logically should impact yearly inflation rates to the income tax brackets. This is why modest incomes end up paying 30%.

52 minutes ago, topt said:

Just because the US DTA may cover you does not mean all DTA's do......

As one example UK/Thai DTA does not cover the state or Company/private pensions.......

 

I do sort of agree with your last line though 

This is a copy of my reply to someone else on the subject.

"

The US/Thai  tax agreement clearly states that "State pensions, private pensions and income from annuities can only be taxed at the country where they occurred. These are bulky PDF documents and I have not read any from your countries. I am sure at the very least they contain that any tax paid at your country would be credited toward taxes owned in Thailand.

But as I said Thailand is not about to shoot itself on the foot. The purpose of this is to raise revenue , and mostly directed at Thais who earn income abroad. It is not an unusual or unreasonable policy.

Most every other country has a similar one , and frankly I was surprised that Thailand did not have such tax provisions. 

But at the same time  all these countries  want to increase investment in their country, not to decrease it and as such have made provisions toward that goal. 

. More recently Thailand enacted the Long stay retirement visa to induce investment, taxing such investment would be counterproductive. 

 In many other countries that I looked into retiring in, reduced tax rates are offered toward those who transfer their retirement pension there. In Greece it is 7% , subtract taxes you paid in your country, and you probably pay zero. Greece only one example and not the only one, 

Thailand  is not about to make itself vastly uncompetitive , remember the goal is to increase revenue, not to decrease it.  "

 

If some pensions from some countries is taxed, there still remains to be seen at what rate. I am sure if they do it will be at a reduced rate, subtract from that the credit from the taxes you paid at your country and you will probably owe nothing. 

10 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Just wonder what you'd say if your tax liability was between 0 and 800000 ?

 

The same thing, Until I knew for sure what my tax liability was going to be.

 

Doesn't really matter if it is between 0 and 80,000 or 0 and 800,000, it is all relative.

 

You might have noticed ( but probably not ) I made a conscious decision to limit my income remiited after 01 Jan 2024 to a single source that might incur  a Thai tax penalty of between 0 and 80,000 Baht.

 

Nothing stopping anyone else doing the same thing.

DTAs are not the blanket 'get out of jail free' card, that some people think they are in Thailand.

DTAs are a method whereby someone from one country can claim tax exemptions and offsets/credits in another country, in order to avoid Double Taxation being applied.

It is up to the Thai RD to agree with any claim made under a DTA in a tax resident's income tax return.

It not that any taxpayer can give themselves a free pass and not lodge a tax return because of what they read in a DTA. 

There is no guarantee that the Thai RD will accept or agree with any claim using any DTA in any taxpayers income tax return.

The application of a DTA is totally under the authority of the Thai RD - that authority does not reside with a tax resident of Thailand.

 

However. if the Thai RD declares that any form of 'income' remitted into Thailand is not taxable income (such as Pensions or Savings from prior employment years ago), then and only then can a tax resident in Thailand determine that they are not liable for income taxes. 

 

If the Thai RD does not provide a declaration/ruling that the income being remitted into Thailand is not taxable, then the tax resident has to lodge a tax return and claim under a DTA that they are exempt or have offsets/credits - it is then up to the Thai RD to agree or disagree with that claim. 

On 12/6/2023 at 12:40 PM, Dogmatix said:

I took a break from this thread for a few days to regain my sanity.  Now as the year is drawing to a close I am thinking of liquidating some long held shares overseas.  The question is does it seem likely that the RD would accept evidence of capital gains realised in 2023 as 'seasoned' income that can be remitted tax free any time in the future, regardless of what happened to the proceeds after that?

 

Interesting question to which I don't know the answer.It does occur to me to wonder whether honest, English speaking, competent and intelligent firms of tax advisers exist in Thailand who would process expatriates tax returns for a reasonable fee.

 

I also wonder what would be the position if one was able to ring fence investments made prior to 31.12.2023 and only make remittances to Thailand from this source,thus presumably without being liable for Thai tax.But would be the tax status of dividends or interest on cash deposits? Would they count as current income and thus eligible to be taxed?

4 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Interesting question to which I don't know the answer.It does occur to me to wonder whether honest, English speaking, competent and intelligent firms of tax advisers exist in Thailand who would process expatriates tax returns for a reasonable fee.

 

I also wonder what would be the position if one was able to ring fence investments made prior to 31.12.2023 and only make remittances to Thailand from this source,thus presumably without being liable for Thai tax.But would be the tax status of dividends or interest on cash deposits? Would they count as current income and thus eligible to be taxed?

Yes there are honest, English speaking, competent tax experts - but they aint cheap - they mainly deal with businesses in regards to income taxations.  Look through this thread and several names have been mentioned, and there are others too.  

 

There is no anwer to your question - far too many possibilities. One thing is clear though, in the future if the Thai RD believes you should pay income taxes on the money you have remitted into Thailand because you have not lodged any tax returns, then you will have to prove that they are wrong and that will have to be in the format and structure that they require.  IMO if you have investments like yours overseas, I would see a tax expert and disacuss the situation.  Not yet though - they are all waiting for 'clarifications' from the Thai RD - and their rule change is likely to be challenged in Court (at least under the fairness provisions of the Act, because they gave so little advance warning). 

1 hour ago, newnative said:

     I would not rely on an AN forum survey to 'confirm' anything whatsoever.  With many threads, you see the same two or three dozen forum members commenting, with a few others thrown in.  

     With such a small number contributing regularly, you can and do get an unfair take on things.   A good example is real estate, which is almost completely negative on the forum regarding buying vs. renting.  I, and a few others, sometimes try to show the positive side to owning in Thailand but our posts are usually met with derision.  I remember some years ago posting that my partner and I had never lost any money selling properties in Thailand.  The comments were scathing, with some accusing me of lying.   Who needs that? 

    I do still comment because I think it's important to see more than just one, negative side all the time when the topic comes up.  Recently, I had to pipe up when a member posted that condo projects all go falling down at 5 years.   People with a negative experience with something, such as real estate, are far more likely to post on a topic but that can, and does, leave a false impression of a topic. 

   Another good example is Pattaya, itself.   The comments, again often from a relatively small number of regular posters, are far more negative than positive on the forum, which can also leave a false impression.  Not long ago, we had a forum member post that Pattaya was responsible for 90% of the crime in Thailand.  When I called him on it and asked him to provide statistics, he responded that this was his impression, having been reading Asean Now. 

     I don't know what the average income is for expats in Thailand, but I do know an Asean Now survey likely won't know the correct answer, either.

    

Yes, sure, it's anecdotal. But the combination of all anecdotal evidence, surveys, personal knowledge, people I know, myself, all point towards the average being much much closer to 50k per month than 85k a month or 1 million a year. The likes of poster Ben Xioner are in the top couple of percent.

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Even if the income is one million, allowances and deductions reduce that by half, if over 65. That means assessable income is only 500k, from memory that's 15 percent.

Correction, income of 1 million a year will potentially attract Thai Tax at 10% on the 500k that is assessable whilst the other 500k is free of tax.

4 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Am sure there are more but as a single guy my plan is to bring in 235K for me (60K PA + 25K for Health Insurance + 150K taxed at 0%) & 210K for the GF (Wired straight to her account from UK).

Why limiting your GF remittance at 210K? Assuming she's Thai tax resident you can gift her up to 10M THB a year tax-free (then 5% tax on the exceeding amount).

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes there are honest, English speaking, competent tax experts - but they aint cheap - they mainly deal with businesses in regards to income taxations.

 

I know some of them personally, mainly well known firms which are reliable and have integrity.The problem is that, as you note, they are pricey. Having said that biting the bullet and coughing up - at least in the first tax year or so - might well be preferable to using one of the farang bottom feeders.

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Why limiting your GF remittance at 210K? Assuming she's Thai tax resident you can gift her up to 10M THB a year tax-free (then 5% tax on the exceeding amount).

 

It might be a bit difficult proving to the RD that the money was used for

 

Quote

• Income from gifts received by a person who intends to use the gift for education, religion or public benefit purposes according to the intention of the donor is exempt from personal income tax referred to in the Ministerial Regulations

 

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The average farang retiree lives here on much less than 1 mill, surveys in this forum over the years confirm that.

 

Another person who believes this forum represents all retired expatriates.I can assure you there are many retired or partially working expatriates who have investment/pension income far in excess of Baht 1 mill. Most of them wouldn't be members of the forum or even aware of its existence. Look at the advertisers and draw your own conclusions.The blue collar element of expat population is very over represented on this forum.

11 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

It might be a bit difficult proving to the RD that the money was used for

Thais are receiving significant gift remittances daily (and I'm not only talking about "sponsors"), nothing is declared nor taxed.

 

Liability is on the giftee. If ever asked GF can show (international) wire transfer statement labelled "Gift to support Miss GF from Mr Teavee" as evidence.

   

For the people who are bringing in pensions, Your tax liability hasn't changes. Its just the people who were using the loophole who's liability may have changed. I suspect that this is more about showing some globalist institution that they are making efforts to comply with their agenda. They might target a few unlucky peeps but my guess is that most can just carry on as usual and probably nothing will happen.

24 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Thais are receiving significant gift remittances daily (and I'm not only talking about "sponsors"), nothing is declared nor taxed.

 

Sure,  although that could change from the 01 Jan

 

24 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Liability is on the giftee. If ever asked GF can show (international) wire transfer statement labelled "Gift to support Miss GF from Mr Teavee" as evidence.

 

It doesn't matter who the tax liability falls on. Tax will still have to be paid if it is not for 

 

* Education

* Religion 

* Public benefit

 

So I very much doubt that @Mike Teavee would gift his girlfriend 10 million Baht so that she can then donate it to one of the above.

33 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Another person who believes this forum represents all retired expatriates.I can assure you there are many retired or partially working expatriates who have investment/pension income far in excess of Baht 1 mill. Most of them wouldn't be members of the forum or even aware of its existence. Look at the advertisers and draw your own conclusions.The blue collar element of expat population is very over represented on this forum.

I never said anything of the sort, you can't read properly or comprehend or both.

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

It doesn't matter who the tax liability falls on. Tax will still have to be paid if it is not for 

 

* Education

* Religion 

* Public benefit

 

So I very much doubt that @Mike Teavee would gift his girlfriend 10 million Baht so that she can then donate it to one of the above.

 

Your quote is incomplete.

 

From PWC:

Maintenance income derived under a moral obligation or gifts made in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with established custom from persons who are not ascendants, descendants, or spouse, in the amount not exceeding THB 10 million throughout a tax year.

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I never said anything of the sort, you can't read properly or comprehend or both.

 

"The average farang retiree lives here on much less than 1 mill, surveys in this forum over the years confirm that."

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

"The average farang retiree lives here on much less than 1 mill, surveys in this forum over the years confirm that."

If the survey was conducted on this forum then I suggest that you should be saying  "The average farang retiree members of AN lives here on much less than 1 mill".

 

I somehow do not think that AN is representative of all Expat retirees living in Thailand!

55 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Another person who believes this forum represents all retired expatriates.I can assure you there are many retired or partially working expatriates who have investment/pension income far in excess of Baht 1 mill. Most of them wouldn't be members of the forum or even aware of its existence. Look at the advertisers and draw your own conclusions.The blue collar element of expat population is very over represented on this forum.

 Correct, school fees alone can easily be over 1,000,000 easily...

12 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

"The average farang retiree lives here on much less than 1 mill, surveys in this forum over the years confirm that."

"Another person who believes this forum represents all retired expatriates".

 

 

19 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

Your quote is incomplete.

 

From PWC:

Maintenance income derived under a moral obligation or gifts made in a ceremony or on occasions in accordance with established custom from persons who are not ascendants, descendants, or spouse, in the amount not exceeding THB 10 million throughout a tax year.

 

And the point I am trying to get across

 

Maintenance Income.

 

Does the new interepretation of the rules effective from the 01 Jan 2024 not make all income remitted to thailand assessable for income tax  for all tax residents of Thailands ?

 

Perhaps it is just me. But I would think that tax free gifts of up to 20 million baht a year would be exactly the loopholes that they are trying to close.

Just now, Danderman123 said:

It's a bigger problem than just the money - the labor involved in calculating the tax would be enormous. Will the tax forms and instructions be in English? Will the tax forms provide reductions in taxable income due to bilateral tax treaties?

 

I have seen a lot of discussion about the theory of how this new tax would work, but very little about actual practice. The danger is at visa renewal time, the government demands a full accounting of all my income anywhere in the world, and no visa renewal if I don't provide it.

 

Right now, my plan is to remain in Thailand less than 180 days next year, starting January 4. If, as usually happens, the new scheme fails, then I will return to Thailand.

 

It's just remitted income considered for the moment, if it goes global in later years the 179 day limit method may be the go to situation.  Yes, global tax would be like mosquito repellent that works 55% of the time .

 

Thai RD don't seem to have the tax return forms to express things correctly, so we may  do a return to show the Gross pension income (or similar), with what actually gets remitted to Thailand i.e. minus the tax credit relief value claimed. which would be in the Thai bank account (less a wee bit for the Banks after fees).  Then to determine  any  additional tax due in Thailand (or not).

 

They are supposed to be generating a new form apparently, but will it make things simple or not is still a mystery. Will it be like learning to ride a bike, once you've  done it once....??