ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Morch]

1 hour ago, connda said:

"I say to the residents of Gaza: Leave now because we will operate forcefully everywhere."
--Netanyahu

Now the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian civilians begins in earnest.  Goodbye Gaza.  Goodbye West Bank.  Hello 5 million Palestinians ejected out of what will be Israeli-claimed Palestine. Hope the EU has plans for another 5 million displaced people of Arab descent.  This is about to become a human-right crisis of epic proportion.

You reap what you sow. 

No. This is a phrase used almost regularly before any conflagration/attack on the Gaza Strip. It's aim is more for civilians to evacuate, as to lessen casualty figures, and to apply public pressure on Hamas leadership. Also sounds good for the voter base. There were no statements regarding attacks directed at Palestinians in the West Bank, and the comment was made specifically with regard to the Gaza Strip.

 

It's going to get bad, but not quite as you seem to imagine. Think like previous fighting rounds, but a somewhat worse.

[steven100]

destroy Moscow and destroy Hamas.

[MrMojoRisin]

18 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Israel stated that they are going to remove all the Government and military in Gaza

And then what?

 

[Brickleberry]

10 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

You are now going to two different hells for saying that , you are going to the Muslims hell and the Jewish hell 

 For Muslims, hell is temporary. For Jews, hell does not exist.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Maybe not so much among the rising generation:

How Israeli youth helped usher in the farthest right-wing government ever

Over the past month, tens of thousands of Israelis have come out to protest their new government’s proposed judicial reforms, which could weaken the country’s democracy and separation of powers. The crowds are diverse in age, but unlike popular liberal or democratic protests in many countries, attendees say the audience skews older.

Recent polling backs that surprising observation: A joint poll published by the Israel Democracy Institute last month found that 73 percent of Jewish Israelis between ages 18 and 24 identify as right-wing, compared with only 46 percent of Jewish Israelis over 65.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/2/23/23609584/israel-right-wing-young-voters-palestine

 

We've been over this issue on several topics in the past. I agree that there's a shift to the right. And as said, it has a lot to do with government policies. But the underlying long term causes for such are pretty much outside the scope of the current topic, and do not directly relate to either the Hamas attack, or the upcoming Israeli retaliation.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Israel knows that time is on the Palestinian side as their population is increasing faster than the Israelis, so eventually by sheer weight of numbers they can win over Israel. IMO this situation was tailor made for them to try and make the Palestinians leave and go somewhere else, though where that is does anyone know?

On one post it's 'time is on the Palestinan side', on another it's 'genocide'. Not expecting much logic or reason from some posters, but this comes up regularly. If the situation was 'tailor made for them', should not at least partial blame be placed with the 'tailors'?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed. The Israelis should read their own Bible ( the old testament ).

 

10. Proverbs 22:8 Whoever sows injustice will reap calamity, and the rod of his fury will fail.

 

The ones going currently about to reap what they saw are the Palestinians. Or rather, the Gaza populace will reap what the Hamas saws.

[Jeff the Chef]

What we need is a big Asteroid to land on this planet then all these problems will go away, I for one would welcome that with open arms.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Who should we compare Hamas with when judging them?

 

Other terrorist organisations of course.
 

Israel probably belongs in the same bucket.

 

My point was that Hamas is not actively or effectively 'judged'. The 'comparison' bit is irrelevant.

Israel, on the other hand, is  regularly censured for any transgression. So if Israel and the Hamas are both 'in the same bucket', how is it that only one gets blamed?

[kalasiner]

2 hours ago, seajae said:

the terrorists have killed 250 plus and wounded 1500 plus by attacking civillian towns, this is terrrorism at its worst and they need to be wiped out completely, attacking soldiers is one thing but killing hundreds of innocent civillians because of their BS beliefs deserves total annihilation so it never happens again. This shows how backward and demented these terrorists really are, they are still living in the dark ages.

"they need to be wiped out completely".

Because "final solutions" have been so successful e.g. the 1940s ?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The success was in no small part due to the failure of Israel’s Intelligence Services.

 

 

One of the things I'm wondering about is just how accurately the Hamas assessed Israel's intelligence picture regarding the situation. Back in 1973, Egypt and Syria made an effort to disguise their intentions, but even so, were surprised as to the level of Israel's intelligence failure. I think that with the current attack, the Hamas assessed it could pull it through, but maybe with greater investment in the initial assault, and a shorter window of operations. Not sure all them Hamas militants that were killed in Israel during the prolonged fighting yesterday were actually planned to stay that long. More like a situation that evolved during the fighting. Would have made much more sense to grab whomever they can, and head back without massive casualties (reports site hundreds of Hamas militants dead).

[Isaan sailor]

I’ll bet some, if not most of these Hamas will end up as “refugees” in a Western European country, or even in the USA.  Close borders now.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

One of the things I'm wondering about is just how accurately the Hamas assessed Israel's intelligence picture regarding the situation. Back in 1973, Egypt and Syria made an effort to disguise their intentions, but even so, were surprised as to the level of Israel's intelligence failure. I think that with the current attack, the Hamas assessed it could pull it through, but maybe with greater investment in the initial assault, and a shorter window of operations. Not sure all them Hamas militants that were killed in Israel during the prolonged fighting yesterday were actually planned to stay that long. More like a situation that evolved during the fighting. Would have made much more sense to grab whomever they can, and head back without massive casualties (reports site hundreds of Hamas militants dead).

Agreed.

 

But perhaps the objectives were not clear to all, or the initial success was just as much a surprise to the Hamas fighters who then got carried away with a bit of enthusiasm driven mission creep.

 

Hamas commanders are sure aware of how long it takes/how quickly Israel can bring troops to combat an attack.

 

They must also be very aware that Israel will respond with overwhelming force, a clearly understood outcome before the first rockets were launched.

 

Whatever Hamas’ objectives, Palestinian civilians are expendable in their plan.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

I’ll bet some, if not most of these Hamas will end up as “refugees” in a Western European country, or even in the USA.  Close borders now.

Triggered response?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Certainly possible. But given that they must have known that this would invite massive retaliation from the Israelis, I believe that this was basically directed at Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Qatar and whatever other Arab nations are considering a rapprochement with Israel.

Guess I should have elaborated more on the "relevance" bit. It relates to what you posted. So far the Palestinian issue raised in talks about possible Saudi-Israeli normalization was mostly discussed with regards to the PA, rather than the Hamas. With Qatar, it's also to do with the transfer of funds.

 

The consideration of massive retaliation by Israel doesn't seem to be a huge deterrent for Hamas leadership. There is little say for the local populace when it comes to government anyway, and public sentiment is easily maneuvered to focus on Israel. Then there's the reconstruction bonanza....

[Isaan sailor]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Triggered response?

Like open borders much?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Now they have the hostages , what do you think the outcome will be ?

For decades, Israel's state of mind and policy were to bring captives back at almost any cost. But over the years, and especially with recent prisoner swaps, this sentiment was eroded some. When it comes to Netanyahu, it has more to do with perceived political gains.

 

If it were a couple of soldiers, that's one thing. This situation involves multiple captives. many civilians, women, children. And it's not like Hamas will keep the together or anything, so heroic rescue operations are off the table.

 

Uncharted territory, this.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Unfortunately, the Israeli government is jammed full of extremists, haters, and corrupt criminal fools. Highly unreasonable men. 

 

All of Israel’s most dangerous politicians are now in one place—Even before the new Israeli government was officially sworn in on Dec. 29, angry reactions began emerging, not only among Palestinians and other Middle Eastern governments, but also among Israel’s historic allies in the West. As early as Nov. 2, top US officials conveyed to Axios that the Biden administration is “unlikely to engage with Jewish supremacist politician, Itamar Ben-Gvir.”

 

In fact, the U.S. government’s apprehensions surpassed Ben-Gvir, who was convicted by Israel’s own court in 2007 for supporting a terrorist organization and inciting racism.

U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken and National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan reportedly “hinted” that the U.S. government would also boycott “other right-wing extremists” in Netanyahu’s government.

However, these strong concerns seemed absent from the congratulatory statement by the U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Tom Nides, on the following day. Nides relayed that he had “congratulated (Netanyahu) on his victory and told him that I look forward to working together to maintain the unbreakable bond” between the two countries.

In other words, this “unbreakable bond” is stronger than any public U.S. concern regarding terrorism, extremism, fascism, and criminal activities.

 

Ben-Gvir is not the only convicted criminal in Netanyahu’s government. Aryeh Deri, the leader of the ultra-Orthodox Shas party, was convicted of tax fraud in early 2022 and, in 2000, he served a prison sentence for accepting bribes when he held the position of interior minister.

Bezalel Smotrich is another controversial character, whose anti-Palestinian racism has dominated his political persona for many years.

 

While Ben-Gvir has been assigned the post of national security minister, Deri has been entrusted with the ministry of interior and Smotrich with the ministry of finance.

 

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/all-of-israels-most-dangerous-politicians-are-now-in-one-place-the-government/

 

A fair enough review. How does it relate to the Hamas attack, though?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

So you're saying Israel knew about the rocket pile, 7000+ according to Hamas, and did nothing about it. I find that hard to believe.

Massive failure of Israeli intelligence here.

 

Israeli intelligence almost definitely knew that stockpiles were refreshed. There's no surprise here, it happens after each and every round of fighting (or else there's be only one of them). However, Israeli intelligence does not make policy, that's the government's job. The decision whether to attack such stockpiles and other facilities lies with the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defense, and to a lesser degree, other ministers.

 

The intelligence failure is with regard to misreading Hamas intentions, and with not providing enough of an alarm once the ball started rolling.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Israel has all the power, so yes, it is all up to Israel.

If the other side refuses to engage, what should a country do? Realistically, that is, not the usual nonsense.

 

[Hanaguma]

2 hours ago, connda said:

"I say to the residents of Gaza: Leave now because we will operate forcefully everywhere."
--Netanyahu

Now the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian civilians begins in earnest.  Goodbye Gaza.  Goodbye West Bank.  Hello 5 million Palestinians ejected out of what will be Israeli-claimed Palestine. Hope the EU has plans for another 5 million displaced people of Arab descent.  This is about to become a human-right crisis of epic proportion.

You reap what you sow. 

Why does the EU have to plan for the refugees? There is plenty of space and money in the surrounding Muslim countries to take them in easily. Egypt the UAE, etc. Not a European problem in the slightest.  Hell, they can go live in Iran with their buddies. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Yet the critics in the world are very quiet when the Israelis attack Gaza and the Palestinians with their army, its tanks, ground attack aircraft and helicopter gunships.

That is not even remotely true. Each and every round of fighting sees Israel being criticized and censured. The Hamas, as  party to the festivities, much less so.

[tgw]

9 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Netanyahu deliberately left the gates unlocked , sent the soldiers home for Shabbat and then gave Hamas a call and invited them over ?

Iran might want to prevent normalization of relations between Israel and ordered the attack.
I'm not saying that Netanyahu might not also have had a motive, but it seems remote.

 

If we ever know about it, it will be interesting to learn about what led to the attack and how it was organized.

 

Also, I'm doubtful this is a localized attack. There's probably more to come, as it doesn't make much sense to just attack around Gaza.

Edited October 8, 2023 by tgw

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Maybe they ought to reflect on their leadership and choices made. So far, all of their 'struggle' and 'resistance' brought them mostly further misery and hardship. On the other hand, every time they make steps toward embracing less violent positions, their situation improves (some....not saying it's all rosy, obviously). The international community's, or even the Arab World's lack of support is also related to the Palestinian stance and inability to embrace effective means for progress.

Both sides seem to be very low on self reflection.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

I doubt that you actually speak for the whole of your 'lot'. There is no such single minded view within Israel. While rehashing history is all very fine, Israel's own transgression and wrongdoing cannot be ignored, or even be fully excused and justified by it's people's past.

 

There's enough going on without dragging the whole baggage into these 'discussions' (and that goes for the Israel haters on here as well).

Ridiculous. Israel is under a totally unprovoked attack, once more. And strangely the victim seem to be blamed in this thread. There is only one reason for that.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

Israel stated that they are going to remove all the Government and military in Gaza

 

"Following the Meeting tonight of the Israeli National Security Cabinet it was decided that the IDF will soon begin an Operation that will bring forth the Destruction of the Military and Governmental Capability of Hamas in the Gaza Strip."

Sure thing. Unless one recalls that Netanyahu's 2008 election slogan was pretty much the same. Ended up doing the same old fighting rounds, and added Qatari funding to the mix. Everything he says is aimed for home consumption, and with the knowledge that his base will swallow almost any nonsense.

[stevenl]

5 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Ridiculous. Israel is under a totally unprovoked attack, once more. And strangely the victim seem to be blamed in this thread. There is only one reason for that.

3 points in this post, all not true.

[Morch]

58 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

And then what?

 

Even if it happens, which is doubtful, the current thinking in Israel might be that it doesn't matter anymore. The concept that it's better to have the Hamas as a semi-reasonable, and better alternative option to IJ, AQ and IS, seems to have just crumbled. As AQ and IS are less of an issue these days, the threat of a worse player taking control isn't very relevant. The PA could step in, A UN force, whatever.

[Morch]

34 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

I’ll bet some, if not most of these Hamas will end up as “refugees” in a Western European country, or even in the USA.  Close borders now.

Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by many Western countries. Given that Israel, Egypt and European agencies have a pretty good grip on personnel belonging to the organization, wouldn't worry about that much.

[Morch]

34 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Agreed.

 

But perhaps the objectives were not clear to all, or the initial success was just as much a surprise to the Hamas fighters who then got carried away with a bit of enthusiasm driven mission creep.

 

Hamas commanders are sure aware of how long it takes/how quickly Israel can bring troops to combat an attack.

 

They must also be very aware that Israel will respond with overwhelming force, a clearly understood outcome before the first rockets were launched.

 

Whatever Hamas’ objectives, Palestinian civilians are expendable in their plan.

 

 

 

No one mounts such a coordinated attack without clear goals. There were, initially, video clips and pictures of Hamas militants returning to the Gaza Strip on captured IDF vehicles (with or without captives/bodies). Later on coverage changed to them rampaging about Israeli settlements - I think this part was not 100% planned, but came about because of the slow Israeli response.