52 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Intersting math / moral question:

 

What is the highest number of civilians deaths allowable to successfully take out a single enemy operative whilst still being able to maintain a legitimate claim to being civilised, humane and within the law?

 

Here's an example to ponder - 

 

Israel say they carried out airstrike that Hamas claim killed more than 50 people at Gaza's Jabalia refugee camp: 'Dozens of bodies' are recovered after site is reduced to giant crater - IDF claim their jets took out senior jihadi commander.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12693827/More-50-killed-Israeli-strike-Gazas-Jabalia-refugee-camp-Palestinian-health-officials-claim.html

 

Is 50:1 acceptable?

 

 

 

Did you even read your own link. If you did then you'd also have read that it was not just one senior Hamas commander but also "numerous Hamas terrorists were hit in the strike"

 

So your 50:1 calculation is immediately false. Now lets look at the actual current casualty figures. Hamas is saying at least 50. Yet the Red Crescent is saying 25 killed. Which do you believe? I wonder how many of those 25 killed were Hamas terrorists? 

The director general of the Palestine Red Crescent Society has told BBC News that 25 civilians were killed in the attack on the Jabalia refugee camp.Earlier, the Hamas-run health ministry and a hospital director said at least 50 people were killed.

 

Again from your link, I don't see one single woman onlooker there do you? Caption to the photo is: Crowds gathered around to see the devastation to the camp with their own eyes. 

 

 

 

 

These are the Terrorists refusing to answer questions about their horrific crimes and also lying, and some posters on here hang on to their every word. 

 

 

More than 400 Americans and their family members blocked from leaving Gaza by Hamas, Blinken says

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said his department is focused on trying to get more than 400 Americans and their families, totaling about 1,000 people, out of Gaza. They're being blocked from leaving by Hamas but are in close communication with the State Department, he said.

"We've had about 5,500 communications that we've initiated, phone calls, emails, WhatsApp, to be in touch with them to try to guide them as best we can and to work for their ability to leave," Blinken said.

He added that roughly 5,000 other foreigners are also seeking to get out.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna122919/rcrd23960?canonicalCard=true

9 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Interesting, thanks. Are the Muslims in Israel Israeli citizens?

Not only citizens, Arab Muslim women are not required to, and often don't, cover their heads. Many appreciate living in a normal society. 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html

 

... back to Hamas ...

1 hour ago, Wobblybob said:

These are the Terrorists refusing to answer questions about their horrific crimes and also lying, and some posters on here hang on to their every word. 

 

 

Nonsense, noone is hanging on to their every word.

Just a question . Can we change the title please. Israel is at war. SB Israel are at war with HAMAS and inadvertently Palestine.

54 minutes ago, rabas said:

Not only citizens, Arab Muslim women are not required to, and often don't, cover their heads. Many appreciate living in a normal society. 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/arab-israeli-citizens-cmd-intl/index.html

 

... back to Hamas ...

 

The 20% of non-Jewish Israeli "citizens" do indeed have some, not all, but some of the rights afforded to Jewish citizens.

 

Why doesn't Israel offer those same rights the existing non Jewish Israeli's have to the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank creating a Greater Israel incorporating all the people's of the area?

 

Surely, the 20% are not just a token minority?

1 hour ago, Wobblybob said:

These are the Terrorists refusing to answer questions about their horrific crimes and also lying, and some posters on here hang on to their every word. 

 

 

 

Merely an exception that proves the rule.

 

Every interview I have seen of somebody representing the Palestinian side the very first question is always - do you condemn Hamas's attack. The same is never asked of the Israeli proponents - do you condemn Israel's wholesale slaughter of civilians.

 

Very, very few decline the opportunity to condemn Hamas.

On occasion there is one or two.

 

It is dishonest to represent outliers as the norm - but I guess what choice have you when the truth is at odds with your opinions.

 

Which posters here are "hanging on their every word?"

5 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

Merely an exception that proves the rule.

 

Every interview I have seen of somebody representing the Palestinian side the very first question is always - do you condemn Hamas's attack. The same is never asked of the Israeli proponents - do you condemn Israel's wholesale slaughter of civilians.

 

Very, very few decline the opportunity to condemn Hamas.

On occasion there is one or two.

 

It is dishonest to represent outliers as the norm - but I guess what choice have you when the truth is at odds with your opinions.

 

Which posters here are "hanging on their every word?"

Perhaps that is because Israel is not slaughtering civilians wholesale. Even using Hamas' inflated figures, about 8,000 Gazans have been killed in 3 weeks of bombing.  "Wholesale slaughter" in a crowded urban area, should Israel choose to do so, would result in 8,000 deaths in an hour.  

 

It is actually a remarkably low number, considering the difficult conditions the IAF has to work with, and a testament to their professionalism and restraint.

2 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Perhaps that is because Israel is not slaughtering civilians wholesale. Even using Hamas' inflated figures, about 8,000 Gazans have been killed in 3 weeks of bombing.  "Wholesale slaughter" in a crowded urban area, should Israel choose to do so, would result in 8,000 deaths in an hour.  

 

It is actually a remarkably low number, considering the difficult conditions the IAF has to work with, and a testament to their professionalism and restraint.

 

If it were your neighbourhood, your family and your friends being bombed, I wonder if you'd still be so dismissive of 8,000 deaths.

Probably not, eh?

Just now, MrMojoRisin said:

Every interview I have seen of somebody representing the Palestinian side the very first question is always - do you condemn Hamas's attack. The same is never asked of the Israeli proponents - do you condemn Israel's wholesale slaughter of civilians.

 

You again do not attribute the necessary actions of the Israelis that caused by the terrorist butchery on the 7th, are you purposely ignoring the catalyst murderous actions of the Palestinian incursions, are you being purposely obtuse by ignoring the very people that started this war. Do you not agree that Israel has every right to defend its country and its citizens and why never any condemnation of the terrorists that created this war. Don't start a war and expect instant forgiveness, it doesn't work like that.

Just now, MrMojoRisin said:

 

If it were your neighbourhood, your family and your friends being bombed, I wonder if you'd still be so dismissive of 8,000 deaths.

Probably not, eh?

"If" my mother had testicles she'd have been my father. 

11 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Perhaps that is because Israel is not slaughtering civilians wholesale. Even using Hamas' inflated figures, about 8,000 Gazans have been killed in 3 weeks of bombing.  "Wholesale slaughter" in a crowded urban area, should Israel choose to do so, would result in 8,000 deaths in an hour.  

 

It is actually a remarkably low number, considering the difficult conditions the IAF has to work with, and a testament to their professionalism and restraint.

This type of disgusting post makes me want to stop reading this thread. 

 

2 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

These are the Terrorists refusing to answer questions about their horrific crimes and also lying, and some posters on here hang on to their every word. 

 

 

Indeed and here's another interview this time by the BBC with a Hamas leader walking out and denying they targeted civilians. The apologists keep on believing the Hamas spoke people in Gaza however.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

This type of disgusting post makes me want to stop reading this thread. 

 

Don't make promises you are unwilling to keep.

 

Otherwise what did I say that was factually incorrect?

20 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

If it were your neighbourhood, your family and your friends being bombed, I wonder if you'd still be so dismissive of 8,000 deaths.

Probably not, eh?

If it were my neighborhood, I would try to get Hamas out of there.

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

If it were my neighborhood, I would try to get Hamas out of there.

We are all heroes in our own heads.

Reality, however, tends to expose people for what they are.

You have no idea what you would do and how you would feel had you been born and raised in Gaza.

Hasta la vista, Yemen you won't be back 🤔

16 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

You again do not attribute the necessary actions of the Israelis that caused by the terrorist butchery on the 7th, are you purposely ignoring the catalyst murderous actions of the Palestinian incursions, are you being purposely obtuse by ignoring the very people that started this war. Do you not agree that Israel has every right to defend its country and its citizens and why never any condemnation of the terrorists that created this war. Don't start a war and expect instant forgiveness, it doesn't work like that.

Huh?

Obtuse indeed.

From what I can decipher:

No, the war did not start on the 7th of October, it merely heated up on the 7th.

Yes Israel has a right to self defence.

Yes, I condemn terrorists - both the Palestinian and Israeli ones.

There has been constant condemnation of terrorists by all those who condemn Israel's actions.

I don't expect instant forgiveness, I expect each side not to commit war crimes

Just now, MrMojoRisin said:

Huh?

Obtuse indeed.

From what I can decipher:

No, the war did not start on the 7th of October, it merely heated up on the 7th.

Yes Israel has a right to self defence.

Yes, I condemn terrorists - both the Palestinian and Israeli ones.

There has been constant condemnation of terrorists by all those who condemn Israel's actions.

I don't expect instant forgiveness, I expect each side not to commit war crimes

This topic started on the 7th and although it suits your narrative to call the Israelis "terrorists" we know that there is only one terrorist organisation and that would be Hamas, remember them, they started this war.

6 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

What caused this war was murderous terrorists!

What caused the murderous terrorists?

Just now, MrMojoRisin said:

What caused the murderous terrorists?

Hatred of Jews, they killed their prophet Muhammad remember. Remember topic is from the 7th.

3 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

"...no other nation would ever be expected to do"?

 

Israel carries on as if they are being singled out when all that is being requested is for them to meet the minimum standards that the rest of the developed world adheres to.

 

Stop the war crimes and apartheid and people will stop demanding that they act civilised.

 

You're welcome to explain, in detail, how other nations comply with such laws on other conflicts.

Your wide brush implication that other countries adhere to rules is not enough

3 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense.

 

Israel was established in 1948, in the preceding 2,000 years there was no Jewish state, anywhere?

 

If I leave my luggage at the airport, after 90 days without pick up - it's gone.

 

Israel has zero claim to any land in the Middle East.

 

That's your opinion.

The UN felt differently.

Most countries in the world have no issues with Israel's existence or claim.

3 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Does that hold for all eras?

 

Any non-Muslim terrorism in the 1940's?

 

Is this topic about 'all eras'? Or were you trying for a lame deflection?

21 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

What caused this war was murderous terrorists!

This is obviously a troll post.

I'll bite, and who are the terrorists who started this war? 

28 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

The fact you can write this with no concern that most of the 8,000 are women and children days a lot about you as a person. 

I understand if you are Jewish, this racism is probably subconscious, but read what you wrote man. A Testament to restraint! 

Yes, restraint. Relative to what they could do if they chose.  So, if the bombing campaign is not the path to victory for Israel, what is YOUR winning strategy for eliminating Hamas? It is easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize, but time to get in the game with your path to victory.

3 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

Exactly the same as Dictators not allowing international observers in during elections.

 

If you have nothing to hide....

 

If you see the body in question and organization tied with it as biased, it may come to this.

Not too hard to understand.

3 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

The difference is whenever a non Israeli apologist is requested to condemn Hamas, they do so immediately and unequivocally.

 

Whenever Israel atrocities are mentioned to the Israeli apologists....crickets.

 

This would require adopting your view that there is no difference between the sides.

Not everyone subscribes to your views.

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

This would require adopting your view that there is no difference between the sides.

Not everyone subscribes to your views.

 

No difference whatsoever.
 

Israel-Hamas conflict: Top commander admits Israel knew civilians were in refugee camp: WARNING: Graphic. A senior Israeli commander has made a stark concession in an interview about the bombing of a refugee camp.

 

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israelhamas-conflict-father-of-shani-louk-says-festival-goer-was-killed-on-the-spot/news-story/03c71e631ef3e5c58a4802075140a598

 

The old “Hamas rocket misfire” ain’t going to have too many buyers this time around.