ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[CharlieH]

PUBLIC NOTICE

 

The amount of Moderation, reports made and constant attention this thread is requiring is reaching it limits !

 

Certain individuals who appear not to take notice of the warnings issued in this thread  may soon find themselves excluded if this continues.

 

 

 

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

Agreed.

Many Israeli's are appalled at the lurch to right wing extremism ongoing since the turn of the century.

The immediate danger is war favours Netanyahu and therefore he is in no rush to contain it or end it.

Netanyahu's political career ends when this war ends - he will unnecessarily prolong it.

The US has to pull on his leash, sooner rather than later - the problem here though is that they are about to enter the pointy end of their election cycle and appearing to side with Muslim Arabs won't play well with voters so likely won't happen.

Expect more parties to enter the war against Israel if it drags on too long.

Then what?

So, now you know many Israelis, I thought you might.............🙄

[Morch]

1 minute ago, deejai33 said:

You are correct, I do treat the UN and ICC as important international bodies.   I do expect objectivity from them and fairness.

 

The veto powers for selected nations affects its decisions adversly.

 

I think you are saying that is a mistake to have trust in UN, ICC.  Oh well.  

 

 

 

I think you have been shown links, up topic, as to the background and views of the UN official who just quit.

Does he sound 'objective'? 'Fair'? 'Balanced'?

 

I'm saying that on some issues the UN is definitely biased.

The amount of time and energy the UN invests in criticizing Israel is not proportionate.

The composition of UN human rights bodies etc. often include countries who are major violators.

You want to believe it ain't so? Up to you.

[MrMojoRisin]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

So, now you know many Israelis, I thought you might.............🙄

 

I don't know any Israelis's.

 

However,

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I missed this:

 

The White House says Biden conveyed the same message directly to Netanyahu during a telephone call this past week. “It also means that when this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next, and in our view it has to be a two-state solution,” Biden said.

 

The US appears to be legitimately onboard for a two state solution.

If Trump loses in 2024, there will likely be a Palestinian State before 2028.

 

What a crowning achievement that would be for Biden.

 

[deejai33]

21 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You embrace the notion that Zionism equates with colonialism. You treat this as fact.

The reality is that it's an interpretation, and Israel does not see it that way, nor is this globally accepted.

 

So all this 'apologize' bit is not going to go down to well. An obvious question would be why Palestinians do not need to apologize for all their sins. The narratives of the two people are too far apart for this to be easy (or even possible) to agree on. Also, the 'apologize' bit is not exactly a Middle East thing. I don't think that if it happened it would be interpreted the way you (pretend to?) imagine.

You are correct, yes.  I do see the zionist movement of 1890's as a colonial style project. 

 

A variation as the driving forces were not a single nation, seeking to gain new territory.  But a religious themed group from multiple nations trying to make a nation.  Quite different, but with the single 'target' area -palestine.  Which had a significant, 'native', population already.  

 

I would be interested to hear what the israeli view of that was.   How they interpret that era.  You suggest they do not use the word colonise.  Presumably they focus on the creation of a safe space for jews.  But it was a safe space where there were already mainly another people, their homeland.

 

I would be interested to know what is taught in schools.  I can image my interpretation is taught in Palestinian and arab country's schools.   Its easy to teach the idea that a strong foreign group came and pushed us out !   Might not be quite how it was ofcourse.

 

Regarding apologizing. Yes, palestinians need to apologize too and examine how their poor decisions and lack of leadership have contributed.

 

I don't know how guilt and reconcilliation is handled by the arab world.   Maybe its all about revenge, endless war !

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by deejai33

[RanongCat]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

I think you have been shown links, up topic, as to the background and views of the UN official who just quit.

Does he sound 'objective'? 'Fair'? 'Balanced'?

 

I'm saying that on some issues the UN is definitely biased.

The amount of time and energy the UN invests in criticizing Israel is not proportionate.

The composition of UN human rights bodies etc. often include countries who are major violators.

You want to believe it ain't so? Up to you.

If you are unable to concede to the fact that the activities  of the IDF  over even the last calender year have not assisted positive opinion in the minds of a global audience  of the excessive  retaliation inside the Gaza  strip  and/or the West Bank against individuals who rightly or wrongly have lashed out in frustration  ? The  destruction  of family homes in retaliation  for  non lethal attacks on arrogant IDF  enforcers  inside  non Israeli  territory? Illegal  settlers in the West Bank not only granted  impunity for lethal attacks and  destruction of property and then provided IDF protection  from any reaction?

International Press teams coming under deadly IDF sniper  fire to  suppress video reporting  of military actions  against civilians ? 16 Year old  girl taking  refuge on a rooftop gets headshot  by an aspiring IDF  hero ?

Hamas are  extremist and can accurately be  describes as terrorists.

Given the increasing evidence of IDF retaliatory acts  can you  honestly  say there is a difference?

 

[deejai33]

31 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You are missing the fact that his topic is about current affairs, rather than an ideology/history class.

Ok. Sorry.

 

Hard to be organized and find an appropriate thread.  Easier just to respond posts that crop up, some of which are about causes and past events.

 

Maybe this board needs a 'move post' button, so we can keep sub topics structured.

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, deejai33 said:

You are correct, yes.  I do see the zionist movement of 1890's as a colonial style project. 

 

A variation as the driving forces were not a single nation, seeking to gain new territory.  But a religious themed group from multiple nations trying to make a nation.  Quite different, but with the single 'target' area -palestine.  Which had a significant, 'native', population already.  

 

I would be interested to hear what the israeli view of that was.   How they interpret that era.  Yilou suggest they do not use the word colonise.  Presumably they focus on the creation of a safe space for jews.  But it was a safe space where there were already mainly another people, their homeland.

 

I would be interested to know what is taught in schools.  I can image my interpretation is taught in Palestinian and arab country's schools.   Its easy to teach the idea that a strong foreign group came and pushed us out !   Might not be quite how it was ofcourse.

 

Regarding apologizing. Yes, palestinians need to apologize to and examine how their poor decisions and lack of leadership have contributed.

 

I don't know how guilt and reconcilliation is handled by the arab world.   Maybe its all about revenge, endless war !

 

 

 

Considering the level of your indoctrination, allow me to laugh at the notion you're not aware of Israel's positions.

Just more of your dishonest style of posting.

 

I do believe that you are clueless as to many aspects pertaining to cultural, political and social aspects of the people you 'support'.

For the sake of accuracy, in essence it's not so much support of the Palestinians, with most of you guys (you wouldn't want to live in a free Palestine, or an occupied one), but more to do with Israel bashing - whether issues are with the country and people, or whether it's the 'anti-colonialist' nonsense bit.

 

 

[RanongCat]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Considering the level of your indoctrination, allow me to laugh at the notion you're not aware of Israel's positions.

Just more of your dishonest style of posting.

 

I do believe that you are clueless as to many aspects pertaining to cultural, political and social aspects of the people you 'support'.

For the sake of accuracy, in essence it's not so much support of the Palestinians, with most of you guys (you wouldn't want to live in a free Palestine, or an occupied one), but more to do with Israel bashing - whether issues are with the country and people, or whether it's the 'anti-colonialist' nonsense bit.

 

 

Indoctrination  His ? F...ing  laughable.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

If you are unable to concede to the fact that the activities  of the IDF  over even the last calender year have not assisted positive opinion in the minds of a global audience  of the excessive  retaliation inside the Gaza  strip  and/or the West Bank against individuals who rightly or wrongly have lashed out in frustration  ? The  destruction  of family homes in retaliation  for  non lethal attacks on arrogant IDF  enforcers  inside  non Israeli  territory? Illegal  settlers in the West Bank not only granted  impunity for lethal attacks and  destruction of property and then provided IDF protection  from any reaction?

International Press teams coming under deadly IDF sniper  fire to  suppress video reporting  of military actions  against civilians ? 16 Year old  girl taking  refuge on a rooftop gets headshot  by an aspiring IDF  hero ?

Hamas are  extremist and can accurately be  describes as terrorists.

Given the increasing evidence of IDF retaliatory acts  can you  honestly  say there is a difference?

 

 

Yeah, there is a difference.

Not cutting off babies from pregnant moms is a clue.

 

I do not usually defend Israel's actions and policy in the West Bank. I think most of that is wrong.

I do not have as many issues with things Israel does in the Gaza Strip, though.

Not same same.

 

Honestly, didn't go over all the accusation you put up. One reason is your usage of loaded words, the other being that your posts are hard to follow.

It's a language thing.

 

 

[deejai33]

59 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Oh, wow....loses credibility, says poster.

Maybe the 'credibility' on offer is not worth the price of biased investigations.

 

Also - US, Russia, China....none of them are much into the ICC.

On the other hand, the Palestinians are - does it make them 'credible;?

I was surprised the US is not in the ICC.   I read that the US reason is their constitution does not allow it.  Something to do with giving another body juristruction over a US resident.   Maybe they will fix that.

 

I doubt the US is keen on being seen in a group containing russia, china, north korea etc.

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

I missed this:

 

The White House says Biden conveyed the same message directly to Netanyahu during a telephone call this past week. “It also means that when this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next, and in our view it has to be a two-state solution,” Biden said.

 

The US appears to be legitimately onboard for a two state solution.

If Trump loses in 2024, there will likely be a Palestinian State before 2028.

 

What a crowning achievement that would be for Biden.

 

 

This wad discussed earlier on this topic, and on parallel ones.

 

Got to love how some posters criticize and ridicule Biden when it suits, then cheer when something to their liking is said.

Had a lot of that on here with Obama and Kerry, at the time.

 

Biden can say a whole lot of things, and maybe he even means it. But it's not something he could make happen if sides aren't into it.

With both sides supporting respective political divides, mistrust of each other, and licking wounds of the current war - hard to see how this will pan out.

 

As for your 'likely' nonsense - sure....

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

I was surprised the US is not in the ICC.   I read that the US reason is their constitution does not allow it.  Something to do with giving another body juristruction over a US resident.   Maybe they will fix that.

 

I doubt the US is keen on being seen in a group containing russia, china, north korea etc.

 

It's like this - if you were surprised, then maybe go do some reading before coming up with 'ideas'. 

If you weren't - then it's just the same old as earlier. Neither option puts you in much positive light.

 

The US will 'fix' the Constitution to align with your politics? I think not.

Further, if you're not aware of what 'fixing the constitution' entails, you got some extra reading to do.

 

I doubt that what you think the USA is keen on matters much.

[deejai33]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Considering the level of your indoctrination, allow me to laugh at the notion you're not aware of Israel's positions.

Just more of your dishonest style of posting.

 

I do believe that you are clueless as to many aspects pertaining to cultural, political and social aspects of the people you 'support'.

For the sake of accuracy, in essence it's not so much support of the Palestinians, with most of you guys (you wouldn't want to live in a free Palestine, or an occupied one), but more to do with Israel bashing - whether issues are with the country and people, or whether it's the 'anti-colonialist' nonsense bit.

 

 

Ok. I agree I do not know what is taught in Israels schools about zionist movement and founding is israel.   I agree I do not know, my level of knowledge is low. I dont live in israel.

 

So, can you help me and tell me what is taught to israeli kids on this?

 

Maybe I can google it.

[Nick Carter icp]

28 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

I missed this:

 

The White House says Biden conveyed the same message directly to Netanyahu during a telephone call this past week. “It also means that when this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next, and in our view it has to be a two-state solution,” Biden said.

 

The US appears to be legitimately onboard for a two state solution.

If Trump loses in 2024, there will likely be a Palestinian State before 2028.

 

What a crowning achievement that would be for Biden.

 

 

   Both Trump and Biden are quite likely to be pushing up daisy in 2028 and the World will be a different place then , but today USA military are in Gaza trying to free American hostages , held by Hamas 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Ok. I agree I do not know what is taught in Israels schools about zionist movement and founding is israel.   I agree I do not know, my level of knowledge is low. I dont live in israel.

 

So, can you help me and tell me what is taught to israeli kids on this?

 

Maybe I can google it.

Speaking about what is taught in schools.

BTW -- I totally believe this -- that the majority of non Israeli Palestinians do not want two states but instead want the end of Israel, just as Hamas does.

 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, deejai33 said:

Ok. I agree I do not know what is taught in Israels schools about zionist movement and founding is israel.   I agree I do not know, my level of knowledge is low. I dont live in israel.

 

So, can you help me and tell me what is taught to israeli kids on this?

 

Maybe I can google it.

 

You're doing it wrong.

[MrMojoRisin]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

This wad discussed earlier on this topic, and on parallel ones.

 

Got to love how some posters criticize and ridicule Biden when it suits, then cheer when something to their liking is said.

Had a lot of that on here with Obama and Kerry, at the time.

 

Biden can say a whole lot of things, and maybe he even means it. But it's not something he could make happen if sides aren't into it.

With both sides supporting respective political divides, mistrust of each other, and licking wounds of the current war - hard to see how this will pan out.

 

As for your 'likely' nonsense - sure....

 

Israel is too much of a thorn in the US's side in the Middle East.

 

Hard to have any oil rich Arab friends with Israel behaving so badly all the time.

 

As Iran continues to get cosy with Russia and China, the US is stuck with a problem child in Israel that nobody in that part of the world wants a bar of and increasingly the rest of the world is tiring of.

 

The only avenue to peace in the Middle East is via US leadership - it may very well happen.

[coolcarer]

32 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

I missed this:

 

The White House says Biden conveyed the same message directly to Netanyahu during a telephone call this past week. “It also means that when this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next, and in our view it has to be a two-state solution,” Biden said.

 

The US appears to be legitimately onboard for a two state solution.

If Trump loses in 2024, there will likely be a Palestinian State before 2028.

 

What a crowning achievement that would be for Biden.

 

Can you provide a link for that full quoted text. I have found one here and it does not contain this last paragraph.

35 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

The US appears to be legitimately onboard for a two state solution.

If Trump loses in 2024, there will likely be a Palestinian State before 2028.

 

It does however contain this

 

Aaron David Miller, who served as an adviser on Middle East issues to Democratic and Republican administrations, said Biden’s recent emphasis on a two-state solution was an “aspirational talking point.”

“The odds are very, very low,” he said. “It’s essentially mission impossible.”

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/biden-pushes-mideast-leaders-to-consider-two-state-solution-after-israel-hamas-war-ends

 

 

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Both Trump and Biden are quite likely to be pushing up daisy in 2028 and the World will be a different place then , but today USA military are in Gaza trying to free American hostages , held by Hamas 

 

Are they?

Officially it was said they are in Israel.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were in Gaza, but the potential for friendly fire incidents seems way too risky.

[MrMojoRisin]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

BTW -- I totally believe this -- that the majority of non Israeli Palestinians do not want two states but instead want the end of Israel, just as Hamas does.

 

Totally believe it because it's true, or because you want it to be true?

 

Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.

 

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas#:~:text=On the eve of Hamas's,percent of the adult population.

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by MrMojoRisin

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

Israel is too much of a thorn in the US's side in the Middle East.

 

Hard to have any oil rich Arab friends with Israel behaving so badly all the time.

 

As Iran continues to get cosy with Russia and China, the US is stuck with a problem child in Israel that nobody in that part of the world wants a bar of and increasingly the rest of the world is tiring of.

 

The only avenue to peace in the Middle East is via US leadership - it may very well happen.

 

   It could well end up in a World war with the  free Western Countries fighting against  the oppressive regimes of China , Iran and Russia . 

   Some of the Russians , Iranians and Chinese people will side with the free Western Countries , some westerners will side with the oppressive regimes 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Speaking about what is taught in schools.

BTW -- I totally believe this -- that the majority of non Israeli Palestinians do not want two states but instead want the end of Israel, just as Hamas does.

 

 

I think that it depends how the question is framed and what people imagine when they say two-state solution.

 

IMO there are at least as much support for this among Palestinians as is among Israelis - meaning sizeable, but not a majority. Not when it comes to the actual nitty gritty details, that is. The Palestinian version of a two-state solution may include things Israelis would find unacceptable and vice-versa.

 

That said, I do think there's an issue with letting go of claims. As in accepting a two-state solution, but hanging on to the notion that really all belongs to us. This cuts both ways.

 

Regardless of all that, hard to see Israelis having an easy time accepting something like that post 7/10. Not with the rhetoric used by Hamas, anyway.

 

For both sides, the main issue to sort before that is settling respective political divides.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

Israel is too much of a thorn in the US's side in the Middle East.

 

Hard to have any oil rich Arab friends with Israel behaving so badly all the time.

 

As Iran continues to get cosy with Russia and China, the US is stuck with a problem child in Israel that nobody in that part of the world wants a bar of and increasingly the rest of the world is tiring of.

 

The only avenue to peace in the Middle East is via US leadership - it may very well happen.

 

Of course it is.  There, there.

Its amusing to see the almost exact repeat of nonsense tossed about.

Saves a lot of energy.

 

So far it seems like the trend in the ME is to make friends with Israel.

Pop. Sorry about that bubble of yours.

 

Ah, so this is the USA-as-savior phase. Good, good.

Already expecting the anti-USA rant a few days down the line, when something less appealing is said by US officials.

[MrMojoRisin]

5 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   It could well end up in a World war with the  free Western Countries fighting against  the oppressive regimes of China , Iran and Russia . 

   Some of the Russians , Iranians and Chinese people will side with the free Western Countries , some westerners will side with the oppressive regimes 

 

Given the choice between WW3 and allowing Israel to maintain its apartheid state, I think the US cuts Israel loose.

[Yellowtail]

10 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

Yeah, that’s what the Dictators say.

Must be true.

Examples?

Links?

Or just more lies?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, deejai33 said:

Its in the Guardian too.

 

Haven't seen it mentioned on BBC site, maybe it is.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-war-palestine-new-york

 

 

 

 

Oh, and in the Guardian as well. Great story; antisemite Craig Mokhiber resigns from anti-Israeli UN for them not being anti-Israeli enough for his liking.

 

This would be the same UN that appointed Ali Bahreini, Ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Iran to serve as chairman of the UN Human Rights Council’s 2023 Social Forum, causing outrage in Human rights organisations throughout the world; something Craig didn’t seem to have a problem with, despite the Iranian government having slaughtered thousands of its own people recently, mostly women, for either not wearing their hijab correctly, or for being raped.

 

The UN are a pointless dinosaur, similar to the odious, corrupt, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus at the WHO; both organisations in the pocket of China, and staffed by a worthless cartel of freeloaders.   

[coolcarer]

12 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

 

Last paragraph is me (italics went a bit too far)

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV_HsiJg8Io&t=409

You have just linked to a video of Scott Ridder a convicted pedo and you expect me to believe anything you say

[Yagoda]

1 hour ago, deejai33 said:

Yes, you are missing context.  7th october did not occur in a vacuum.  

 

You are right. Hamas freedom fighters were merely acting in self defense and in the interests of their people.

 

Guess you and your fellow Hamas lovers would agree that in light of history, each and every Jew has the right to slaughter Catholics, Germans, Egyptians (slaves in Egypt), Iranians and Hamas apologists. NOne of those self defense acts would not occur in a vacuum.

 

From the Rivers to the Sea, Anti semites will die horribly!