Analysis Israel's options don't look good - but a full-scale military campaign in the near future is inevitable

[MikeandDow]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Meaning Iran probably won't get directly involved.

wait and see !! this will give the yanks the excuse they want

[Yellowtail]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Meaning Iran probably won't get directly involved.

I disagree, I think it will be big. The US state department is pro-Iran and pro-Palestinian, and the US has not been weaker in my lifetime. 

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

wait and see !! this will give the yanks the excuse they want

An excuse for what, to help Iran eradicate the Israelis? 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

wait and see !! this will give the yanks the excuse they want

I can assure you that US does not want a war with Iran.

The aircraft carriers are meant as a deterrent and possibly to send in a specialized force to try to free the American hostages.

I'm not going to ignore US election politics. Biden will be under a lot of pressure to do everything possible to try to free the American hostages.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I disagree, I think it will be big. The US state department is pro-Iran and pro-Palestinian, and the US has not been weaker in my lifetime. 

What a load of hooey.

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I can assure you that US does not want a war with Iran.

The aircraft carriers are meant as a deterrent and possibly to send in a specialized force to try to free the American hostages.

I'm not going to ignore US election politics. Biden will be under a lot of pressure to do everything possible to try to free the American hostages.

One would hope (but only a fool would bet) that's not the only reason. 

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What a load of hooey.

Why do say that? 

[placnx]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:52 PM, Nick Carter icp said:

The day before the 2002 Arab peace summit was revealed , Hamas killed 30 Israelis in a bomb attack in Netanya Israel

   Israel then refused to participate in any discussions or negotiation , because they didn't want to meet and discuss whilst being attacked .

   Half the other Arab Countries also rejected participating in the proposals

I seem to remember that it was later seconded by the Arab League.

[placnx]

On 10/15/2023 at 5:04 AM, Jingthing said:

The Palestinian leadership has a long history of rejecting any deals.

Starting in 1948 when they had the best offer they're ever going to get. 

Israel gets stronger and the offers get worse because if you keep starting wars and keep losing, that's the way it works. 

Now the majority of Israelis and Palestinians don't even want two states.

Hamas is a terrorist group not interested in even helping their own people in THIS LIFE -- they're all about DEATH. 

 

Palestinians in 1947 were driven from their homes at gunpoint. Wkikpedia explains that 250-300K people had already be forced out of the area which became Israel before it's declaration of independence in 1948. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba see section "displacement"

 

It's hard to envision two states now. Even back in 2000 it was unacceptable unless a lot of settlements were removed. Today the pogroms visited on West Bank Palestinians by settlers is pretty ironic. Progroms was the word used by a columnist from Ha'aretz.

 

As for a single state, with the Jewish populace turning further rightward, they want a state without any more Palestinians.

 

Only the eventual severe opprobrium of the world will correct this injustice IMO.

 

 

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, placnx said:

Palestinians in 1947 were driven from their homes at gunpoint. Wkikpedia explains that 250-300K people had already be forced out of the area which became Israel before it's declaration of independence in 1948. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba see section "displacement"

 

It's hard to envision two states now. Even back in 2000 it was unacceptable unless a lot of settlements were removed. Today the pogroms visited on West Bank Palestinians by settlers is pretty ironic. Progroms was the word used by a columnist from Ha'aretz.

 

As for a single state, with the Jewish populace turning further rightward, they want a state without any more Palestinians.

 

Only the eventual severe opprobrium of the world will correct this injustice IMO.

 

 

Wikipedia, that's hilarious.

[placnx]

On 10/15/2023 at 8:29 AM, Nick Carter icp said:

Yes, one really needs to be careful with misinformation these days 

   Could you post a link where Israel/Netanyahu claimed that there were 40 dead decapitated babies ?

   Can you back up your claims ?

  

I heard Biden & Netanyahu and some IDF making this claim - probably on BBC World.

[Yellowtail]

1 minute ago, placnx said:

I heard Biden & Netanyahu and some IDF making this claim - probably on BBC World.

So that's a no then. Thanks.

[placnx]

On 10/15/2023 at 8:46 AM, riclag said:

Its the children too ,hamas is training future terrorist.

And on July 12, the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs sounded the alarm about “Hamas’ Summer Indoctrination Camps for 50,000 Children”, where kids are taught kidnapping techniques and weapons handling and are also instructed in the use of “computer simulators to practice shooting Israeli soldiers and police officers at the Temple Mount and al-Aqsa Mosque”.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/8/2/whos-afraid-of-hamas-summer-camps

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/8/2/whos-afraid-of-hamas-summer-camps

The links which you cite concern Israeli propaganda through MEMRI and other "think tanks". It is not factual.

[Yellowtail]

So how many babies does hamas have to decapitate before it becomes unacceptable? 

 

And why are armed 17-year-olds always referred to a children by the left? 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, placnx said:

The links which you cite concern Israeli propaganda through MEMRI and other "think tanks". It is not factual.

Of course, nothing that puts hamas in a negative light is factual. 

[placnx]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:02 AM, riclag said:

I think its safe to say a majority of Gaza inhabitants support Hamas,after all didn’t they elect them as a governing body!

 

The rocket attacks on the Israel must stop and all the hostages must be released unconditionally!

 Side note ,United Nations is suspect ,as we speak! 

The election was in 2006, and the US & Israel have not permitted another election or the emergence of younger moderates to contest new Palestinian elections.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, placnx said:

The election was in 2006, and the US & Israel have not permitted another election or the emergence of younger moderates to contest new Palestinian elections.

How have the US and Israel disallowed elections? 

[Jingthing]

22 minutes ago, placnx said:

Palestinians in 1947 were driven from their homes at gunpoint. Wkikpedia explains that 250-300K people had already be forced out of the area which became Israel before it's declaration of independence in 1948. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba see section "displacement"

 

It's hard to envision two states now. Even back in 2000 it was unacceptable unless a lot of settlements were removed. Today the pogroms visited on West Bank Palestinians by settlers is pretty ironic. Progroms was the word used by a columnist from Ha'aretz.

 

As for a single state, with the Jewish populace turning further rightward, they want a state without any more Palestinians.

 

Only the eventual severe opprobrium of the world will correct this injustice IMO.

 

 

Nobody is debating there needed to be some displacement of some Arabs during the founding period of Israel. 

That happens anywhere such shifts happen. For example India - Pakistan.

Obviously horrible. No denying that.

Sure mention Nakba. No problema. But I noticed you failed to mention the Jewish Nakba that emptied the Middle East and North Africa of the vast majority (or basically all in some countries) of theirJews.

Haaretz has some extremely radical columnists.

Of course Israel demonizers like to milk that.

I reject the inflammatory use of the word pogroms in that context but agreed the settlement movement on the West Bank makes a two state solution almost impossible.

But these days the majority of Israelis and Palestinians don't even want a two state solution.

Outsiders can't make either side want something they don't want.

As far as Hamas, not only doesn't Hamas want a two state solution, they want a FINAL SOLUTION of the murder of all Jews, the end of Israel in ANY borders. and an Islamic caliphate. 

For there to any hope of some kind of resolution to this mess, the Palestinians including the ones of Gaza are going to need to accept the existence of Israel in at least some borders.

With Hamas having any power at all, there is zero hope.

Not suggesting optimism.

But I find posts like yours very clueless.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, placnx said:

I heard Biden & Netanyahu and some IDF making this claim - probably on BBC World.

It was never said that ALL murdered babies were mutilated.

So you're either lying or you suffer a memory lapse.

[zzaa09]

Allowing the ethnic cleansing, genocide and exterminations to commence. 

Civilised hatred is perfectly acceptable to the dumbed down. 

[Thorgal]

17 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So how many babies does hamas have to decapitate before it becomes unacceptable? 

 

And why are armed 17-year-olds always referred to a children by the left? 

1. no child should be harmed from both sides

 

2. no civil law makes you an adult because you carry a gun

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Allowing the ethnic cleansing, genocide and exterminations to commence. 

Civilised hatred is perfectly acceptable to the dumbed down. 

Israel's goal is to do as much damage to Hamas as possible.

Hamas is a terrorist group favoring the murder of all Jews.

Israel's goal in Gaza is not anything you said. 

[novacova]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

What a load of hooey.

No, not a load of hooey. The current US administration has most certainly created a mess with Iran with ill advised dealings by Rob Malley for starters, that has only emboldened the Iranian zealots. Though if one is so politically bent, then they as well are floating down the River of Denial with some others on this thread but swirling in a different direction.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, novacova said:

No, not a load of hooey. The current US administration has most certainly created a mess with Iran with ill advised dealings by Rob Malley for starters, that has only emboldened the Iranian zealots. Though if one is so politically bent, then they as well are floating down the River of Denial with some others on this thread but swirling in a different direction.

Enjoy your Fox "news" bubble world. 

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I can assure you that US does not want a war with Iran.

The aircraft carriers are meant as a deterrent and possibly to send in a specialized force to try to free the American hostages.

I'm not going to ignore US election politics. Biden will be under a lot of pressure to do everything possible to try to free the American hostages.

The aircraft carriers are there so that things will not go boom on between Israel and the Hezbollah. The situation is already heated, with fire traded and small number of casualties on both sides. Normally, by now Israel would strike there with much greater force.

 

If I got it right the understanding is that Israel will avoid (at least for now) a more massive response in Lebanon, with the USA giving assurance it will have Israel's back in case Hezbollah goes too much out of line. This relates to your first line - that the USA does not want a general regional conflagration.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, placnx said:

The election was in 2006, and the US & Israel have not permitted another election or the emergence of younger moderates to contest new Palestinian elections.

You are making things up. The Palestinian factions cannot even agree on conduct during elections and similar issue. What you offer is a wholesale conspiracy theory. Israel may have had interests in this, sure - but the Palestinians manage their political divide just find without outside help.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

Allowing the ethnic cleansing, genocide and exterminations to commence. 

Civilised hatred is perfectly acceptable to the dumbed down. 

There only genocide and exterminations going on are in your imagination. If this was either, than it's a pretty snail paced inefficient one, as such things go.

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, placnx said:

I heard Biden & Netanyahu and some IDF making this claim - probably on BBC World.

What happened was that a journalist reported that 40 Children (under 18's) had been killed in the attacks and SOME of those has been burnt /decapacitated .

   Pro Palestinians then changed that to falsely claim that Israel claimed that 40 Babies had been decapitated and that was a lie and so nothing bad happened in the attacks .

   Israel/IDF said it couldn't conform ot dent the allegations 

   I must say, I find it personally sickening to keep talking about the children concerned and them being the subject of such interest . 

  Just let them R.I.P and stop using them to score points

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

The aircraft carriers are there so that things will not go boom on between Israel and the Hezbollah. The situation is already heated, with fire traded and small number of casualties on both sides. Normally, by now Israel would strike there with much greater force.

 

If I got it right the understanding is that Israel will avoid (at least for now) a more massive response in Lebanon, with the USA giving assurance it will have Israel's back in case Hezbollah goes too much out of line. This relates to your first line - that the USA does not want a general regional conflagration.

Yes, I really meant Hezbollah as a direct proxy of Iran.

[placnx]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:57 PM, JensenZ said:

Hamas are ok with it. Their attack on Israel was well planned, and they knew exactly how Israel would respond. it was part of their master plan and the death of their own people was part of it.

The expectation was more likely that international outrage would force IDF to halt their ethnic eradication campaign long before it could become a reality.