Geert Wilders' victory in Netherlands election spooks Europe

[RayC]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

That's quite radical. I'm shocked that you could say this!

 

I notice that you don't disagree with the proposal.

 

Maybe I reappraise my assumption that you're not part of the 'send em back' brigade?

 

[Dirk Z]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:35 AM, herfiehandbag said:

He got the biggest share of the vote, and the biggest share of seats, by quite a long way, it would seem.

 

I somehow doubt that means he will be in government- the new Netherlands government will probably look rather like the old Netherlands government!

 

It's not just here!

His party is by far the biggest so by tradition he is now in the lead to form a government. Even though his party is the biggest, it is not big by historical standards. With 23% he is very dependent on at least two other parties, one of which has already declared that they will not join his government but will support measures that are in line with their ideas. But that a cabinet with right wing policy will eventually be formed seems the logic result of these elections.

[Dirk Z]

23 hours ago, jvs said:

A lot of Dutch people have decided 'Enough is enough'!

There are places where normal Dutch citizens can not go out doors any more after dark and there are many more rapes,break inns etc.

Before you accuse me of being a hater you need to have experienced those things yourself.

For a Young couple to rent a house there are waiting lists up to ten years and more.

Crazy!

I am all for helping people who need asylum but over half of those that come in are just

gold diggers.

Should citizens of a country adjust to the whims of the asylum seekers?

Or should the AS adjust to their host country?

I really can understand the sentiment of the Dutch people but i do not think Wilders will or can do anything radical.

 

Please don't spread fake news. The numbers for criminal offenses have gone down over the past ten years:

2013	1.105.565
2014	1.025.630
2015	978.945
2016	930.325
2017	832.950
2018	786.420
2019	821.905
2020	813.150
2021*	757.795
2022*	806.210	(source: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/83723NED)

[RayC]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

And I find it strange that, after my post, you still think that I have dismissed the negative economic consequences of Brexit. 

 

But you don't seem to consider them to be of any particular significance.

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

You are correct in that I think that Brexit was won because of the sovereignty issue but obviously red herrings did not ping back on my sonar. No pups were bought or sold as far as I am concerned. Being (temporarily) poorer was seen by me as part of the expected cost of leaving the EU. 

 

Perhaps you could put some flesh on the bones and give some examples of how this newly won sovereignty has manifested itself and benefitted the UK since we left the EU?

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

Brexit might have been 'done right' if the process had been managed by a strong leader instead of one who basically let the EU author that hopeless withdrawal agreement. We'll never know now.

 

We can agree that there were no end of tactical errors made by the UK side during the negotiations. The underlining reason for this was that there was no plan or strategy and the reason for that was Project Brexit ended when the referendum result was 'Leave'. No thought was given to the consequences. The public embarrassment of the UK during the negotiations was the only natural outcome.

 

In any event, the lack of preparation made no difference to what happened. The UK could have made the best strategic plan and had the world's best negotiators and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. The EU had 4 aces showing and the UK a pair of 2s. The EU were always going to dictate the terms of any agreement (and any future amendments to it). You were sold yet another pup if you believed 'they need us more than we need them' mantra.

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

These "cumulative adverse effects" are mainly due to the rapid rise in the UK population and the associated burden on government services, especially w.r.t. health, housing, schooling and social welfare.

 

Another consequence - at least in part - of Brexit. Many immigrants from the EU left their families in the home nations and returned to them periodically (many weekly). It was pretty easy, quick and inexpensive to do a weekly commute from most EU countries. Those immigrants have left and been replaced by immigrants from further afield who bring their families with them, thus giving rise to the problems which you outline.

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

More acute adverse effects concern the criminality (especially violent) which is an unfortunate and disturbing characteristic of certain immigrant groups.

 

My understanding is that these criminal gangs are mainly Albanian who arrive in the country legally and then overstay. Maybe one solution is to be stricter with the granting of visas for nationals of certain countries. Unfortunate but necessary?

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Now political and civil unrest is increasing in the UK and Europe and years of high immigration rates are the man reason for that. Migrant assimilation has not happened.

 

Or perhaps, immigrants are a convenient peg upon which to hang society's problems. Hasn't it always been so? Firstly, the Jews then the Irish then the Blacks. The Poles and East Europeans were briefly the bad eggs and now it's the Muslims turn 

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

You guys always worry about the growth of the economy rather than the preservation of the nation. Infinite growth in any economy is both impossible and unsustainable, in any case. 

 

 

 

If the economy goes down the pan there will be no nation to worry about. I've never been hunting or foraging for my food and I don't fancy starting now.

[Dirk Z]

20 hours ago, vinny41 said:

EenVandaag Opinion Panel

EenVandaag believes it is important to know what is going on in society. The EenVandaag Opinion Panel was created for this purpose, which now has more than 80,000 members. These members are asked every week to speak out on political and social issues. This makes the EenVandaag Opinion Panel a real indicator of society. All research results can also be found in the Polling app .  

https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/info/over-eenvandaag/

 

Its more likely that this Dutch website is factual correct than rather than someone speaking on a podcast with out any polls to backup what they are saying

The panel has 80.000 members and therefore 80.000 potential votes. In reality only a small number actually votes. And the panel consists of self-applied voters, those interested enough to participate and having some online skills. The group is not representative of the population as a whole.

[jvs]

22 minutes ago, Dirk Z said:

Please don't spread fake news. The numbers for criminal offenses have gone down over the past ten years:

2013	1.105.565
2014	1.025.630
2015	978.945
2016	930.325
2017	832.950
2018	786.420
2019	821.905
2020	813.150
2021*	757.795
2022*	806.210	(source: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/83723NED)

Go tell that to the people who have to deal with that on a daily basis.

I am talking about the crimes committed by asylum seekers,it is not funny at all and naming it is not spreading fake news.

 

[Peterphuket]

45 minutes ago, Dirk Z said:

Please don't spread fake news. The numbers for criminal offenses have gone down over the past ten years:

2013	1.105.565
2014	1.025.630
2015	978.945
2016	930.325
2017	832.950
2018	786.420
2019	821.905
2020	813.150
2021*	757.795
2022*	806.210	(source: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/83723NED)

You know better yourself, if you are honest, advice is given not to report because of lack of manpower. yes logical that the numbers go down then.

 

[Peterphuket]

Just now, Peterphuket said:

You know better yourself, if you are honest, advice is given not to report because of lack of manpower. yes logical that the numbers go down then.

 

And I'm happy I don't have to live there anymore, it loos like more and more Turkey or Morocco....

[Presnock]

On 11/24/2023 at 7:53 AM, sirineou said:

Given what you know, what you said might make sense to you, but unfortunately for you and many others , what you know is not the full picture. 

When trump was elected, I often posted that trump was a danger, but that he was not the real danger. 

The real danger is that the players saw how much more  they can get away with, and how much the electorate would buy.

and players will be players,

I said, "one way of another trump will go away, but trump wannabes will always be around. and now they have a new play, in their play book" 

And we see this play all around the world. 

   Most countries are depopulating, this is a fact, first world women are not having enough children. That is a fact.

The US has an advantage in this paradigm, they have an immigrant culture, and are a desirable immigrant   destination, so they are able to maintain population and grow. 

If they are to survive as viable economies, European countries need to learn from the above lesson. Either have more children or replace your population with immigrants.

It is as simple as that. 

But the immigration issue is a wedge issue that players will use, and "players will be players" they will play every card they have, and Ethnocentrism is a card the hold. 

The Brits shot themselves in the foot by it, the Netherlands will shoot their foots also , and I am afraid that unless the immigration issue is addressed in a sustainable fashion, and a way that it is palatable to all involved, more countries are not far behind. 

That is correct!  Japan has always had a strict immigration policy, Australia used to be that way too until they realized they needed more workers.  Japan has a birthrate of less than 1 per couple.  S. Korea now

has a birth rate of .8 per couple and by the end of the century, the N. Koreans will just be able to walk over the border unless things change I read the other day.  I sure have no idea of the rate in N.Korea but can't imagine that it is very high.  The US problem is that there are way too many now pouring into the country.  It used to be that shortly after arrival, an immigrant would proclaim to being an American and was accepted as that.  They moved to different areas and learned to live in a different society from which they fled.  Nowadays, they tend to flock together with their former countrymen, until they can elect the govt people as they outnumber the old residents and then try to change the society of the Stateside local into their old society from which they fled.  I don't get it?  oh, our government doesn't fight them

for the space as we just turn it all over to them.  Now Europe is experiencing the same thing.  

[Seppius]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:27 AM, JonnyF said:

 

You clearly don't understand what Brexit was about. It wasn't about the past, it was about the future. The EU has morphed from a simple trading bloc into a political project aimed at creating a United States of Europe. A federalist, anti-democratic project which the majority of UK citizens that cared enough to vote, could see and roundly rejected in one of the greatest examples of Democracy in recent history. We got out while the going was good. While we were still able to. 

 

There has been no chaos. Project Fear has been proven to be a lie. In fact, the UK economy is doing well and out performing many of it's European counterparts, including France and Germany. 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/09/29/uk-economy-growth-france-germany-sunak-inflation/#:~:text=The UK economy has performed,a boost to Rishi Sunak.

 

Wilders victory is just more evidence that voters are rejecting the EU. Rightly so. Expect more to come. 

Agree. Give it a few more years and the UK will be outperforming most of Europe by a long way

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, Peterphuket said:

And I'm happy I don't have to live there anymore, it loos like more and more Turkey or Morocco....

 

Better food on offer, then?

[RayC]

52 minutes ago, Seppius said:

Agree. Give it a few more years and the UK will be outperforming most of Europe by a long way

 

Any evidence to support your confidence?

[Sydebolle]

My prayers have been ultimately heard - let the Lord carry on the good work in all the other European countries ;-) 

[Red Forever]

This right wing swivel eyed loon got 23% of the vote.

Come on people: Some perspective maybe?

[youreavinalaff]

On 11/24/2023 at 2:53 AM, RayC said:

Perhaps those of the opinion that the UK has no need of immigrants could explain why - having left the EU and now being fully in control of immigration - the UK government has simply decided to replace the work-shy, lazy EU nationals - who used to take all our jobs and scround off the British state (err ...🤔) - with lazy, scrounging Indians, Nigerians, Pakistanis and Ukrainians?

If you don't know or understand the difference between EU migrants and non EU migrants and the benefits to them of being legally in Britain, you should not be commenting on this thread 

[Seppius]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

 

Any evidence to support your confidence?

Starting already

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/29/uk-economic-recovery-picks-up-steam-overtaking-sick-man-germany.html

 

 

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/uk-economy-to-outperform-germany-this-year-says-international-monetary-fund-4233563

 

The UK economy will outperform Germany this year, according to the International Monetary Fund, after the UN agency’s worst fears for the UK failed to materialise.

 

[JemJem]

Wilders may have won, but the thing is there is a high chance the other seat-winning parties will refuse to enter a coalition with them. So, he probably won't come to power. 

 

This happens also in some other countries. Other parties refuse to join a coalition with the far right. 

 

I could be wrong of course. Maybe for example the center right party will agree to form a coalition with them. 

 

 

 

 

[Gulfsailor]

Im not convinced it’s correct to call Wilders far right. If you look at his political proposals these are a mix between center left and center right. The only real outlier is his position on Islam. Netherlands is a very liberal and tolerant country as a whole, which at times clashes with the views and behavior of some Muslims who are very conservative and intolerant. This group may not be very large but they are very visible in the bigger cities. Take away Wilders’ anti-Muslim ideas and he would be much closer to the center left parties than the center right parties who have been governing the country for the past 2 decades. Every gay person in the Netherlands that I spoke to about this election admitted they voted Wilders, and even a lot of immigrants (Muslims included) did. I think the Dutch tolerance for intolerance has gone too far in many people’s eyes. 

[stevenl]

On 11/24/2023 at 1:47 PM, jvs said:

A lot of Dutch people have decided 'Enough is enough'!

There are places where normal Dutch citizens can not go out doors any more after dark and there are many more rapes,break inns etc.

Before you accuse me of being a hater you need to have experienced those things yourself.

For a Young couple to rent a house there are waiting lists up to ten years and more.

Crazy!

I am all for helping people who need asylum but over half of those that come in are just

gold diggers.

Should citizens of a country adjust to the whims of the asylum seekers?

Or should the AS adjust to their host country?

I really can understand the sentiment of the Dutch people but i do not think Wilders will or can do anything radical.

 

 

5 hours ago, jvs said:

Go tell that to the people who have to deal with that on a daily basis.

I am talking about the crimes committed by asylum seekers,it is not funny at all and naming it is not spreading fake news.

 

That explanation doesn't justify your earlier post.

[Mr Dome]

The VVD, biggest party in the last government has already turned him down. 

 

Mr. Wilders will find it very hard to find a majority:

"Without the liberals, Mr Wilders will struggle to make up the 76 seats needed to form a majority. The only other major potential partners are the newly formed centrist New Social Contract and the centre-right Farmer Citizens Movement."

 

It's not enough to be the well-coiffed bride at the wedding - and he certainly is perfect for that part - you also need the groom or 2nd bride to show up 😏

[stevenl]

12 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

Im not convinced it’s correct to call Wilders far right. If you look at his political proposals these are a mix between center left and center right. The only real outlier is his position on Islam. Netherlands is a very liberal and tolerant country as a whole, which at times clashes with the views and behavior of some Muslims who are very conservative and intolerant. This group may not be very large but they are very visible in the bigger cities. Take away Wilders’ anti-Muslim ideas and he would be much closer to the center left parties than the center right parties who have been governing the country for the past 2 decades. Every gay person in the Netherlands that I spoke to about this election admitted they voted Wilders, and even a lot of immigrants (Muslims included) did. I think the Dutch tolerance for intolerance has gone too far in many people’s eyes. 

Would depend on what you call left and right. Don't forget wilders is a liberal at heart, and I mean traditional liberal, not the US definition.

[RayC]

2 hours ago, youreavinalaff said:

If you don't know or understand the difference between EU migrants and non EU migrants and the benefits to them of being legally in Britain, you should not be commenting on this thread 

 

And which part of my previous (admittedly sarcastic) post leads you to conclude that I don't know the difference between EU and non-EU migrants?

 

Actually forget that last paragraph. I admit that I don't know the difference. Anything to avoid disappearing into another of your 'Alice in Wonderland' type rabbit holes where everything is deniable by use of pedantic semantics. 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Seppius said:

Starting already

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/29/uk-economic-recovery-picks-up-steam-overtaking-sick-man-germany.html

 

 

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/uk-economy-to-outperform-germany-this-year-says-international-monetary-fund-4233563

 

The UK economy will outperform Germany this year, according to the International Monetary Fund, after the UN agency’s worst fears for the UK failed to materialise.

 

 

Data relating to the UK economy has changed; it has been revised downwards.  I imagine that the IMF will also revise their forecast for UK growth downwards.

 

https://obr.uk/efo/economic-and-fiscal-outlook-november-2023/#chapter-1

[Wrwest]

One the one hand, I am sorely disappointed with the Dutch. Historically, they have documented their toleration of those with differing beliefs. They certainly welcomed my Quaker forbears and the English dissidents who came to the British colonies (I acknowledge their own interests were involved). On the other hand, I understand, as a student of history, the reaction across Europe (and the continuing anti-immigrate reaction in the USA), to the influx of those not holding European nations national outlooks. There is the current issue … of course no one wants to deal with the underlying cause of the immigration influx … it takes far too much effort (thought and action).

[mikecha]

Good now Geert Wilders made it lets see what he can do  

Rutter tried for long long years and we all got Poor  except the rich they got more 

 

so now is time to go back to 140 km hr let him see how he makes Netherland wake up.

 if u never try or give someone a chance then u never know .

but like many  they have all the answers but do nothing  

this guy has woken up people for many years 

he irritates many people but he got 37 seats and that didnt come from luck in the lottery 

let him have a go cant be any worse than the crap Nl puts up with now  

[Guitar God]

Great, now the Netherlands has their own white nationalist leader. I can't wait to read his upcoming book "Mijn Gevecht"

[xtrnuno41]

I voted for Geert ! Now to see what he will, can do. 

All other parties are pita. I surely hope, a Timmermans will fade away.

Now he has to prove, he will be there for the Dutch people.

I wondered a lot why a VVD could stay on and destroy the country for 12 years.

 

Since starting the EU all went down hill, so UK leaving a good idea? Well they have own control again.

Changing EEG into EU has almost nothing positive for the people in EU. Yes, you can move around free in the states and there is one coin.

However wrong, as in 2002 the foodbank was a fact ! Prices of goods didnt go down, but up. Guilder prices to Euro price, one on one.

But your salary did go down. In all those years all went up and up. Petrol, gas up in taxes. Petrol we are almost nummer one in price, luckily price will not be raised this January. otherwise we would be nr 2 on the list. Hong Kong will still be nr 1.

A short time we were already nr 2.

Well there are lots of abusing rules and things going on created in the past. PVV has lots to do, dont envy them of correcting all those items.

Also when war started in Ukraine, government said, Dutch people just pay more and eat less, sit in cold and wait.

Dont understand why Dutch people didnt go to war to government. Getting used to be brought down by government?

Slightly they lowered tax a bit.

So that is a government not being there for their own people, they just tell you to rot in hell. And there more things going on, which they say rot in hell. EU system Netherlands.

More kids in the world, no way. The world system, is a piramide game (Ponzi scheme), is thriving on more, then the top will grow better. Thats all. Question is when will this game end. To see population is almost trippelt in my life time. Going down in future?

We MUST. See "10 billion"on youtube

 

Immigrants get out.

They are already behaving bad in doing there asiel! Get out!

We had former Yugoslavian people as refugee, didnt go back after war. Same with Syrian people.

Now we have Ukrainian, but still at war.

In those cases of war I say, yes we provide shelter and help, but when it is over, go back, built your country again.

And now we have an overflow, on any African country, people, to set up criminal organisations.

Not general but there are some way bad people, same as in moslims.

The development money for those countries has gone to wrong people and now they want more and they come in by thousands.

We already have NO houses for our own people, thanks to our former government. They also said "immigrants"will come first !

Lots of young people MUST stay with parents, no houses.

You are in divorce and having  kids? Then you are doomed to live in your car or on the street and thats already a long time.

Will Geert do the impossible? No clue, have to see, but no way any, other up list party for me.

 

 

 

 

[candide]

6 hours ago, Gulfsailor said:

Im not convinced it’s correct to call Wilders far right. If you look at his political proposals these are a mix between center left and center right. The only real outlier is his position on Islam. Netherlands is a very liberal and tolerant country as a whole, which at times clashes with the views and behavior of some Muslims who are very conservative and intolerant. This group may not be very large but they are very visible in the bigger cities. Take away Wilders’ anti-Muslim ideas and he would be much closer to the center left parties than the center right parties who have been governing the country for the past 2 decades. Every gay person in the Netherlands that I spoke to about this election admitted they voted Wilders, and even a lot of immigrants (Muslims included) did. I think the Dutch tolerance for intolerance has gone too far in many people’s eyes. 

Exactly! Take away all his far-right characteristics and he's not that far-right! 

[Capt Rob]

Whilst admiring and supporting the forthrightness of most contributors - i believe a great many issues in 'our' world are due to folk being led away from reality.

Have been encouraged of late by the collective work of "ARC" organisation.

This altruistic themed group are attempting a world reset to reality.

Not sure that this will be popular with all but, a marked improvement for most. It is not nation centric.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:20 PM, sirineou said:

If maintaining the current state of the planet was the criteria then you would be correct, But it is not!

The survival of the Human race is, Because, as far as we know, humans are the only way the the Universe has by which to examine itself. 

Under our current system we weed to maintain the current population or increased to sustain the economic system we live under. Perhaps with a different economic system we will not, but we don't have one , we have the one we have now, and there are no plans to change to a different one. In fact people like you, resist changing to a different socialists system. 

Sp you need people!! I assume you are retired, or some day will be. Who would support you pension system? 

There were 7 working people per retiree, By 2047, there will be just two workers, I want to see what you will say when your pension system goes bust. 

Capitalism is a rotten system and deserves to sent into the sun. Unfortunately the 1% will see it survive, as otherwise they are in the tumbrils.

I lived under a REAL socialist system for a year and it works, but only if the lazy and criminal are absent.

What would be a better system, you ask; certainly not communism.

The best actual society I lived in was in 1970s Singapore under a benevolent dictatorship, but that was a small country with a small population and zero tolerance of lazy or criminal elements.

Perhaps an AI dictatorship would be of benefit to those not lazy or criminal, backed up by police that actually rid society of bad elements.

 

You refer to the pension by which I eke out my remaining years- certainly not a generous one.

Regardless, when I was young it took 5 people working on a farm I know to produce a livable income for all those on it. The same income is generated by 2 people now. For those that are ignorant of farming lives, machinery has replaced people, and soon even those overseas fruit pickers that arrive on our shores every year will be replaced by a machine.

As long as other countries need food and timber, NZ will earn money to pay pensions despite having less people working. What would render us into poverty would be many more unemployable bodies, as every extra unemployed body sucks the available funds into smaller portions. NZ actually needs less people, not more- machines will do the work and the bodies will find work in caring for the aged.

 

 

The survival of the Human race is, Because, as far as we know, humans are the only way the the Universe has by which to examine itself. 

Sorry, you lost me there, but if you think humans are the only "intelligent" species in the universe you should go out on a dark and cloudless night, look at the countless billions of stars in just our tiny portion of the universe, and wonder if we are the only ones that can think about such things.

BTW, I use the term "intelligent" with caution when referring to humans, given the mess we have made of the planet.

 

Also, humans are, like the dinosaurs, just a temporary visitor on planet Earth, and if we keep going the way we are, gone even sooner than expected. Like death, ends are inevitable.