thaibeachlovers Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 12 hours ago, Brian Hull said: Israel has no propriety rights to Gaza or the West Bank and so Netanyahu's objection to a Palestinian State should carry no weight. The world at large should endorse a Palestinian State with or without the cooperation of Israel (just as it endorsed the creation of Israel in 1948). Israel will have to learn to accept it or lose the financial and military backing of the US, and risk an international boycott. The land grabbing Jewish settlers who have set up home in the West Bank and might choose to remain will come under the authority of Palestine. While you are 100% correct, who will enforce it? The western nations will not, the Arab states likely will not, the PA would be unable to. Ideals are great, but need to be realistic. IMO eventually all Palestinians will leave or die, in the face of western hand wringing, and Arab state indifference, Middle East chaos will continue and no israeli will ever be safe outside israel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 13 hours ago, John Drake said: I think what we're seeing here is Joe Biden squirm. His unfreezing Iranian money and taking the Houthis off the terror list has blown up in his face. Combine that with putting the Taliban back in power in Afghanistan and there is no way he can come off as soft on Hamas. IMO Biden has been shown to be either an israeli glove puppet or completely irrelevant in the Middle East. The US has destroyed forever the notion it can be a neutral mediator there, and the script is being written by israel and Iran, not the US. The US has been reduced to the status of reacting to events, and trying to cobble together some sort of alliance. I can't even imagine them ever being able to get the sort of allied force together like Bush the elder got against Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jingthing Posted January 20 Popular Post Share Posted January 20 15 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: The 12,000 or so children the israelis blew to bits with American bombs were not trying to kill anyone. However, IMO the kids that are left when it's all over will grow up with the desire to kill israelis. The israelis are sowing the wind and will reap the whirlwind. You sound positively excited about that. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 1 hour ago, Hawaiian said: Do you really think Putin is upset over the loss of 16 Russian lives? One nuclear weapon over Tel Aviv would also wipe out the West Bank and poison Gaza. In other words there would be no Israel left for anyone including Hamas. There would be no Iran left either. Absolutely Putin cares nothing about the lives of ordinary Russians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 12 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: While you are 100% correct, who will enforce it? The western nations will not, the Arab states likely will not, the PA would be unable to. Ideals are great, but need to be realistic. IMO eventually all Palestinians will leave or die, in the face of western hand wringing, and Arab state indifference, Middle East chaos will continue and no israeli will ever be safe outside israel. Again neither side even wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 52 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: IMO Biden has been shown to be either an israeli glove puppet or completely irrelevant in the Middle East. The US has destroyed forever the notion it can be a neutral mediator there, and the script is being written by israel and Iran, not the US. The US has been reduced to the status of reacting to events, and trying to cobble together some sort of alliance. I can't even imagine them ever being able to get the sort of allied force together like Bush the elder got against Iraq. I don't think the U.S. has ever been considered a neutral mediator in the Middle East or just about anywhere else. The U.S. will say and do what is in America's best interest. In many cases, these interest coincide with the rest of the free world. No matter who writes the script, the U.S. always seems to get into the act. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Off topic obfuscation posts and replies contravening our Community Standards have been removed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said: The 12,000 or so children the israelis blew to bits with American bombs were not trying to kill anyone. However, IMO the kids that are left when it's all over will grow up with the desire to kill israelis. The israelis are sowing the wind and will reap the whirlwind. @thaibeachlovers Children, in this instance, are anyone under 18. You try to make them all like primary school age or something. I don't think Hamas got a strict policy about not recruiting/using teens. And let's face it - it's not as if these kids would have grown up to be anything but hate-filled vs. Israel - not under prevailing conditions, and Hamas rule/propaganda. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said: While you are 100% correct, who will enforce it? The western nations will not, the Arab states likely will not, the PA would be unable to. Ideals are great, but need to be realistic. IMO eventually all Palestinians will leave or die, in the face of western hand wringing, and Arab state indifference, Middle East chaos will continue and no israeli will ever be safe outside israel. @thaibeachlovers Whines about 'hand wringing', make a 'hand wringing' post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 5 hours ago, Jingthing said: You sound positively excited about that. I'll leave the speculation about other posters state of mind to your crystal ball. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 In relentlessly pursuing his own agenda, the prime minister has lost the trust of Israelis and isolated his country https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/20/observer-view-benjamin-netanyahu-israel-needs-a-change-of-course-and-leadership 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: I'll leave the speculation about other posters state of mind to your crystal ball. I think it's relevant because it indicates a bias towards Palestinian terrorism. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 31 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said: In relentlessly pursuing his own agenda, the prime minister has lost the trust of Israelis and isolated his country https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/20/observer-view-benjamin-netanyahu-israel-needs-a-change-of-course-and-leadership The Guardian failed to mention that whether Netanyahu is PM or not the polls in Israel show consistently high support for its military offensive in Gaza. It also failed to mention the new EU resolution demanding an immediate and unconditional release of the hostages and dismantling of Hamas before any ceasefire. "Thanks to all reasonable and moderate politicians from left to right who voted for my amendment on the Gaza resolution. All of us want the conflict to end but the release of the Israeli hostages and the desmantling of Hamas are necessary conditions for peace." 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeranam Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said: In relentlessly pursuing his own agenda, the prime minister has lost the trust of Israelis and isolated his country https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/20/observer-view-benjamin-netanyahu-israel-needs-a-change-of-course-and-leadership Israelis are good people, the government are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yardrunner Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 On 1/20/2024 at 7:16 AM, Bkk Brian said: Well I guess this topic is obviously about Netanyahu and his goals or rather solutions for the end of the war. I also don't agree with him nor do I agree with many of his statements. Its clear that if there was an election today he would be ousted pretty quickly as without looking I think his popularity is down to around 20% or so, maybe a little more. He should obviously step down when this is over or before simply because he was at the helm when this massive security blunder allowed the attack to take place. That said, there is overwhelming support in Israel from the population to carry on the war until it is finished, with Netanyahu there or not. Whatever happens the 2 state solution remains elusive and if it happens which I hope it does, it will not be for a long time yet and only after the current phase of the hostilities are over. The two-state solution is presented publicly by the world's diplomats and politicians as a silver bullet to end a conflict which has raged - one way or another - for decades. But, despite taking part in this dance, most privately know it is dead, or is at best on life support. https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-leaders-love-to-talk-of-a-two-state-solution-but-middle-east-silver-bullet-feels-further-away-than-ever-13051510 I also agree with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas who says there can be “no security and stability in the region” without a Palestinian state. Dismantling Hamas and returning hostages are still the goals however and as the new EU Parliament resolution released just a couple of days ago stated: In a resolution that showed significant support for Israel, the European Parliament calls for a permanent ceasefire after all hostages are “immediately and unconditionally released” and “the terrorist organization Hamas is dismantled.” The resolution was adopted by 312 votes in favor, 131 against and 72 abstentions. At the same time, the MEPs denounce “the disproportionate Israeli military response, which has caused a civilian death toll on an unprecedented scale.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/european-parliament-backs-ceasefire-resolution-contingent-on-hostages-release-hamass-ouster/ I am with the above resolution at the moment, everything else at this stage to me is noise. The resolution seems fair and is also hard hitting for Israel with not just the above conditions, those are for the ceasefire, here is a little more detail, that includes demands for 2 state solution etc. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20240112IPR16776/israel-hamas-war-meps-call-for-a-permanent-ceasefire-under-two-conditions Perhaps it is time that the IDF is designated a terrorist operation. Why should a modern state be allowed to attack a population of different ethnicity without sanctions, this is not now a case of self defense but of naked aggression. The events of the 1930,s and 1940,s during the holocaust were terrible but they should not be used as an excuse by Israel to behave as they are in Gaza 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 8 minutes ago, yardrunner said: Perhaps it is time that the IDF is designated a terrorist operation. Why should a modern state be allowed to attack a population of different ethnicity without sanctions, this is not now a case of self defense but of naked aggression. The events of the 1930,s and 1940,s during the holocaust were terrible but they should not be used as an excuse by Israel to behave as they are in Gaza 🥱 Perhaps not. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmer Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 An off topic personal attack and all the posts because of it have been removed and now also a totally off topic post about Natural Gas 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Guy Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Since what time in WORLD HISTORY has Israel existed on a world map(atlas) At the same time from what time has Palestine existed on a world map (atlas) If you don't see something wrong with this scenario, YOU are part of the problem. Simple 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Carter icp Posted January 21 Popular Post Share Posted January 21 3 minutes ago, This Guy said: Since what time in WORLD HISTORY has Israel existed on a world map(atlas) At the same time from what time has Palestine existed on a world map (atlas) If you don't see something wrong with this scenario, YOU are part of the problem. Simple Israel from 1948 Palestine , not yet, never been a Country 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 3 hours ago, yardrunner said: Perhaps it is time that the IDF is designated a terrorist operation. Why should a modern state be allowed to attack a population of different ethnicity without sanctions, this is not now a case of self defense but of naked aggression. The events of the 1930,s and 1940,s during the holocaust were terrible but they should not be used as an excuse by Israel to behave as they are in Gaza Hamas attempted a continuation of the Holocaust on October 7 th , the IDF are trying to put a stop to Hammas's genocide attempts . The IDF are hunting down the Nazis/Hamas 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billd766 Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 On 1/20/2024 at 7:59 AM, Hawaiian said: At the conclusion of this conflict, whenever that is, Netanyahu should step down before being soundly defeated. Instead of being hammered with accusations of a disastrous security lapse on his watch he can claim how he destroyed Hamas. He can also announce that his job is over and will now leave it to someone else to lead Israel forward. I can hear the snickers now. Never happen. Comments welcome. IMHO both sides leadership are as bad as each other. Again IMHO Netanyahu and his entire war cabinet and whoever is in charge of Hamas and all of his war mongering leadership should both be brought before the ICC in the Hague and charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity. I think it may be possible for President Biden to pull the plug on the Israelis and get the Iran leadership to do the same on Hamas. The downside to that is that IF Trump can stay out of jail long enough, the spineless yapping dogs of the gop, may back him to win the next election in the USA, or they may not, as a new younger generation of voters are coming along and from what I can gather, are not too happy with either big party. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 28 minutes ago, billd766 said: IMHO both sides leadership are as bad as each other. Again IMHO Netanyahu and his entire war cabinet and whoever is in charge of Hamas and all of his war mongering leadership should both be brought before the ICC in the Hague and charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity. I think it may be possible for President Biden to pull the plug on the Israelis and get the Iran leadership to do the same on Hamas. The downside to that is that IF Trump can stay out of jail long enough, the spineless yapping dogs of the gop, may back him to win the next election in the USA, or they may not, as a new younger generation of voters are coming along and from what I can gather, are not too happy with either big party. @billd766 Out of this mess of a post, there's one especially puzzling 'point' - Quote ... and get the Iran leadership to do the same on Hamas. You assert that this is 'possible'. How so? What supports this? There's no cooperation on easier stuff, so why this? What would Iran 'gain'? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post retarius Posted January 21 Popular Post Share Posted January 21 On 1/20/2024 at 1:29 PM, Hawaiian said: Agree. The pro-Palestinians demonstrators making the news are not representative of the general American population. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/ On 1/20/2024 at 1:29 PM, Hawaiian said: Agree. The pro-Palestinians demonstrators making the news are not representative of the general American population. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/ I read recently that the younger populations Gen Z and Millenials are far less convinced of Israel's moral right to destroy Palestine. It tends to be the younger group that demonstrate. Overall I am glad that the US has woken up to Israeli atrocities in the name of self defence. The Holocaust does not provide impunity for this genocide. 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 1 hour ago, retarius said: I read recently that the younger populations Gen Z and Millenials are far less convinced of Israel's moral right to destroy Palestine. It tends to be the younger group that demonstrate. Overall I am glad that the US has woken up to Israeli atrocities in the name of self defence. The Holocaust does not provide impunity for this genocide. Other than in your post where does 'moral right to destroy Palestine' comes from? As for 'genocide', what 'genocide'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 7 hours ago, retarius said: I read recently that the younger populations Gen Z and Millenials are far less convinced of Israel's moral right to destroy Palestine. It tends to be the younger group that demonstrate. Overall I am glad that the US has woken up to Israeli atrocities in the name of self defence. The Holocaust does not provide impunity for this genocide. Morality work both ways. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have their on own justifications for their action in this conflict. While they may be similar, different cultures and religions have their own standards of morality. No where in my post and the link provided was the Holocaust mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 10 hours ago, billd766 said: IMHO both sides leadership are as bad as each other. Again IMHO Netanyahu and his entire war cabinet and whoever is in charge of Hamas and all of his war mongering leadership should both be brought before the ICC in the Hague and charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity. I think it may be possible for President Biden to pull the plug on the Israelis and get the Iran leadership to do the same on Hamas. The downside to that is that IF Trump can stay out of jail long enough, the spineless yapping dogs of the gop, may back him to win the next election in the USA, or they may not, as a new younger generation of voters are coming along and from what I can gather, are not too happy with either big party. Now that Ron DeSantis has quit and is endorsing Donald Trump, the probability of him being reelected seems more probable. It is also looking like the various prosecutors will not stop Trump from running. Even the U. S. Supreme Court has indicated that the decision should be up to the voters and not the courts. It still remains to be seen how much support Israel will get from Trump if he wins, as he often reverses course midstream. As an independent voter all my life, I take issue with your labeling GOP supporters as "spineless yapping dogs." In conclusion, I still haven't figured out exactly what your yapping is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 11 hours ago, retarius said: I read recently that the younger populations Gen Z and Millenials are far less convinced of Israel's moral right to destroy Palestine. It tends to be the younger group that demonstrate. Overall I am glad that the US has woken up to Israeli atrocities in the name of self defence. The Holocaust does not provide impunity for this genocide. Biden is losing the younger generation over his support of israel. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/09/israel-hamas-war-ceasefire-young-democrat-voter Since the start of Israel’s war in Gaza nearly two months ago, outraged young Americans have been at the forefront of a growing Palestinian solidarity movement. They have led protests in Washington DC and across the country to demand a permanent ceasefire and to voice their disapproval of Joe Biden’s support for Israel’s military campaign, which has killed thousands of Palestinians, mostly women and children, and plunged Gaza into a humanitarian catastrophe. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said: Biden is losing the younger generation over his support of israel. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/09/israel-hamas-war-ceasefire-young-democrat-voter Since the start of Israel’s war in Gaza nearly two months ago, outraged young Americans have been at the forefront of a growing Palestinian solidarity movement. They have led protests in Washington DC and across the country to demand a permanent ceasefire and to voice their disapproval of Joe Biden’s support for Israel’s military campaign, which has killed thousands of Palestinians, mostly women and children, and plunged Gaza into a humanitarian catastrophe. Repeating the 1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said: Biden is losing the younger generation over his support of israel. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/09/israel-hamas-war-ceasefire-young-democrat-voter Since the start of Israel’s war in Gaza nearly two months ago, outraged young Americans have been at the forefront of a growing Palestinian solidarity movement. They have led protests in Washington DC and across the country to demand a permanent ceasefire and to voice their disapproval of Joe Biden’s support for Israel’s military campaign, which has killed thousands of Palestinians, mostly women and children, and plunged Gaza into a humanitarian catastrophe. So they are outraged. They found something new to demonstrate about. Most of them are rabble-rousers looking for attention and they are getting it from the news media. Biden has gradually been losing support on other issues, like his illegal immigration mess at the U.S. southern border. Why aren't these young people concerned about the security of America? If they are, they sure aren't expressing it. Edited January 22 by Hawaiian Correction 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said: Biden is losing the younger generation over his support of israel. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/09/israel-hamas-war-ceasefire-young-democrat-voter Since the start of Israel’s war in Gaza nearly two months ago, outraged young Americans have been at the forefront of a growing Palestinian solidarity movement. They have led protests in Washington DC and across the country to demand a permanent ceasefire and to voice their disapproval of Joe Biden’s support for Israel’s military campaign, which has killed thousands of Palestinians, mostly women and children, and plunged Gaza into a humanitarian catastrophe. @thaibeachlovers Must be very confusing for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 On 1/21/2024 at 3:16 PM, Morch said: @thaibeachlovers Must be very confusing for you. Maybe he doesn't know that Americans overwhelming support Israel over Hamas by 80%. In older Americans it rises to over 90%. Much ado over nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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