Usufruct registration problem by corrupt land department - lawyer firm confirmed they can

[john donson]

but a bribe will need to be paid

 

well they formulated it as money/donation to facilitate the land department

 

but they did not want to say how much bribe and how much their services cost

 

maybe the foreign owner of the Thai lawyer office is active here recognize our conversation

 

off course no name given...

[Screaming]

The Land Department of Thailand is very, very corrupt. I know of a person who just submitted a petition to the National Anti-Corruption Commission of Thailand:

 

https://www.nacc.go.th/english

 

This petition was concerning bribes taken by the Land Department. I would be more interested in finding out what you concern is about. I might be able to point you in the right direction. There is an NGO in Thailand that helps Thais and foreigners with problems like this.

[john donson]

refusal for usufruct registration for farang and girlfriend, they claim it is for married only, which is false

[carlyai]

Just be nice and persist. Ask to see the top guy and you stay away and let your Thai wife do the negotiation.

Contributions between Thais to make things run smoothly sometimes helps. 🙂

 

[brianthainess]

Did you not get a letter from your lawyer to present to the land office which should show what section of the law applies? Did you actually pay or was it just a talk on the phone?, I hear it's about 4k for the letter that a Lawyers in Issan will send you.

Edited February 3 by brianthainess

[Mike Lister]

I don't know how much of a good idea it is to have lawyers writing letters to the Land Office, that sounds like an accident waiting to happen. We bought some land ten years ago that had a klong running through it, the surrounding land that we purchased comprised four different chanottes. Two years ago we asked the LO to consolidate the four titles into one so they sent out their survey team to confirm the boundaries. It turns out a branch of the klong existed at one point but was filled in by the land owner and a new chanotte issued, illegally. We took the matter to a well regarded solicitor in these parts who advised us to wait five years and then reapply, using a back door contact. Under no circumstances we were told, should we try to take the matter up with the LO because we wouldn't win and would probably lose in the process.

[Sharp]

A " fee" is common place even with all relevant documentation and "official fees" 

 

To hand 

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, Sharp said:

A " fee" is common place even with all relevant documentation and "official fees" 

 

To hand 

No additional 'fee' needed at non corrupt land offices.  Usufruct fee cost <100 baht to register.  I've done 8 at two different LOs (6 @ UT / 2 @ PKK).

[couchpotato]

3 hours ago, carlyai said:

Just be nice and persist. Ask to see the top guy and you stay away and let your Thai wife do the negotiation.

Contributions between Thais to make things run smoothly sometimes helps. 🙂

 

Read above. He is not married!!

[carlyai]

47 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

Read above. He is not married!!

Sorry. Thai person not Thai wife.

[topt]

12 hours ago, john donson said:

refusal for usufruct registration for farang and girlfriend, they claim it is for married only, which is false

 

21 hours ago, john donson said:

well they formulated it as money/donation to facilitate the land department

 

but they did not want to say how much bribe and how much their services cost

So to be clear they are saying you cannot have one as not married but they can break their rule if you pay a facilitation cost......

 

If coming from the head of your LO I suggest your partner go and find out (probably indirectly from a lower ranked person) what amount is viable. 13 years ago in Pattaya I had to pay 10k in an envelope and that was with a lawyer's rep present.....The amount was "suggested" by a third party.

 

 

[JeffersLos]

12 hours ago, john donson said:

refusal for usufruct registration for farang and girlfriend, they claim it is for married only, which is false

 

I don't believe that there is a uniform law with regards to usufruct registration, and many land offices will treat it as an illegal way of a foreigner owning land by proxy.

 

I know some that have had no problem, some needed to pay 5,000 THB. Offices will often refuse to grant it immediately after the transfer, as it indicates that the foreigner is trying to own the land by proxy. 

[digger70]

3 hours ago, brianthainess said:

Did you not get a letter from your lawyer to present to the land office which should show what section of the law applies? Did you actually pay or was it just a talk on the phone?, I hear it's about 4k for the letter that a Lawyers in Issan will send you.

I can tell you it cost Nothing to register for a Usufruct and one doesn't need a Lawyer. 

We done it ourself at the Land Office no probs .

[VocalNeal]

About 70 -100 baht

[brianthainess]

19 minutes ago, digger70 said:

I can tell you it cost Nothing to register for a Usufruct and one doesn't need a Lawyer. 

We done it ourself at the Land Office no probs .

I'm aware of that but if a rogue corrupt office won't do it, then the letter could help, I have found that with most authorities here they don't even know the laws that relate to their own job, like some DLT not wanting to change car ownership with yellow house book and pink card, and insist on LoR. Immigration, and Amphurs. 

[Wrwest]

I have not faced this as yet. My experience was having the attorney draw up my Will and a Prenup Agreement. I was told the Prenup needed to be registered at the time the marriage was registered at the Amphor Office. At the Amphor Office the official refused to attach the Prenup stating that this was against Thai Marriage Law. I called the agency where the Attorney worked and they sent a rep to state it was a legal document. Refused ... as most will know witnesses were neighbors to be present at the marriage recording. Out of consideration for them, I made my statement about a Licensed Thai Attorney drew up the agreement but I did not decline from registering our marriage. I do not think it was attempt at payment for facilitating, rather I think it was a matter of ignorance not knowing the law. 

[JeffersLos]

7 hours ago, digger70 said:

I can tell you it cost Nothing to register for a Usufruct and one doesn't need a Lawyer. 

We done it ourself at the Land Office no probs .

 

 

Some offices do it, some refuse saying that they view it as a foreigner trying to own the land via proxy. 

 

It is similar to getting a yellow book, some offices do it with no issues, others don't.

 

Before getting lawyer, the people involved should go to talk to the land office and tell them that they want it, and gauge what they say. 

[john donson]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:39 AM, JeffersLos said:

 

I don't believe that there is a uniform law with regards to usufruct registration, and many land offices will treat it as an illegal way of a foreigner owning land by proxy.

 

I know some that have had no problem, some needed to pay 5,000 THB. Offices will often refuse to grant it immediately after the transfer, as it indicates that the foreigner is trying to own the land by proxy. 

 

usufruct is not owning, not the land, but the building upon the land

 

and ends at the death and is not inheritable

 

[JeffersLos]

2 hours ago, john donson said:

 

usufruct is not owning, not the land, but the building upon the land

 

and ends at the death and is not inheritable

 

 

Usufruct is not owning the building.

 

The word literally means to enjoy the fruits of another. 

 

If a person has a usufruct in Thailand, it gives them control of the land and any buildings on it for a set amount of years (up to 30) if specified or until they die.

 

Some land offices (and officers) view it as a means for a foreigner to own Thai land by proxy (they don't own it, but they pay for it and have full legal right to it for the rest of their lives, the Thai owner has no right to use the land or the buildings on it as long as the foreigner has a usufruct on it) and refuse to grant them because of that. 

[Sharp]

On 2/3/2024 at 9:12 AM, KhunLA said:

No additional 'fee' needed at non corrupt land offices.  Usufruct fee cost <100 baht to register.  I've done 8 at two different LOs (6 @ UT / 2 @ PKK).

Unfortunately every loan ,mortgage or Usufruct has come with a grease the native clause in my experience 🥴

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, Sharp said:

Unfortunately every loan ,mortgage or Usufruct has come with a grease the native clause in my experience 🥴

People need to learn how to say 'NO'.  It's actually pretty easy.

[john donson]

20 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

 

Usufruct is not owning the building.

 

The word literally means to enjoy the fruits of another. 

 

If a person has a usufruct in Thailand, it gives them control of the land and any buildings on it for a set amount of years (up to 30) if specified or until they die.

 

Some land offices (and officers) view it as a means for a foreigner to own Thai land by proxy (they don't own it, but they pay for it and have full legal right to it for the rest of their lives, the Thai owner has no right to use the land or the buildings on it as long as the foreigner has a usufruct on it) and refuse to grant them because of that. 

 

I meant, definitely NOT owning the land, but farang could own house

 

usufruct, lifetime use of the house, ends at death

 

update: was drafting contract with lawyer

 

thai person became greedy and demanded I could not lease out the property, as it was my right by law, unless you put it in a contract that you can't

 

good, the greedy thai person will get nothing as owner now

 

and lost what I thought was a friend, but the greed showed up

 

people killed for less or a hotel dive or road accident...

 

lesson learned...

[connda]

Been there.  Just saying...

[proton]

On 2/2/2024 at 9:48 PM, john donson said:

refusal for usufruct registration for farang and girlfriend, they claim it is for married only, which is false

At samut prakan they said they did not do them at all married or not!

[connda]

On 2/3/2024 at 11:43 AM, digger70 said:

I can tell you it cost Nothing to register for a Usufruct and one doesn't need a Lawyer. 

We done it ourself at the Land Office no probs .

Like immigration offices, your experiences will differ from offices to offices.
Speaking from direct experience.  Some will require a lawyer and a brown envelope.  Just saying..... 

[connda]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:39 AM, JeffersLos said:

 

I don't believe that there is a uniform law with regards to usufruct registration, and many land offices will treat it as an illegal way of a foreigner owning land by proxy.

 

I know some that have had no problem, some needed to pay 5,000 THB. Offices will often refuse to grant it immediately after the transfer, as it indicates that the foreigner is trying to own the land by proxy. 

The Land Office tried to talk my wife out of granting a Usufruct.  My wife isn't your typical shy, sensitive, and deferential Thai woman.  She is highly assertive for a Thai woman.  However, my lawyer said we needed to grease the wheels so to speak.  It didn't require much grease. 

[connda]

On 2/3/2024 at 8:48 AM, Sharp said:

A " fee" is common place even with all relevant documentation and "official fees" 

 

To hand 

"Facilitation Fees."  Do you know why I didn't even blink?  Because they do the same thing in the US at places like DMV. 

Normal processing time for processing a license plate renewal.  Something like a week or more.  But - pay a "facilitation fee" and get your renewed plate the same day.  That was back in 2006 in my home state. 

So.  Look at it like a "facilitation fee" or "rapid-processing fee" in order to cut through the bureaucratic red-tape.  

 

[JeffersLos]

1 hour ago, connda said:

The Land Office tried to talk my wife out of granting a Usufruct.  My wife isn't your typical shy, sensitive, and deferential Thai woman.  She is highly assertive for a Thai woman.  However, my lawyer said we needed to grease the wheels so to speak.  It didn't require much grease. 

 

Yes, each office is different. Most view it as a way for a foreigner to buy Thai land via proxy, even though they aren't. Others view it as a way to make some tea money. Others have no problem. 

[john donson]

On 2/6/2024 at 10:19 AM, proton said:

At samut prakan they said they did not do them at all married or not!

 

you tried

 

how come lawyer not only say it is legal and possible, but probably CORRUPTED as hell and demanding bribe...

[BenStark]

In Thailand, in any government office or whatever other public company, the rules are made up on the spot by the person at the other side of the desk.