As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

To state the obvious: stronger.

 

That's great.

[ezzra]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

About that claim that Hamas is using tunnels between it and Egypt to transport weapons:

Not only has Egypt for its own reason been very diligent about patrolling the zone, but even smugglers says that smuggling has stopped thanks to Egypt's strict enforcement. You can read about it in the article I linked to above. 

In fact, Egypt and Israel have been cooperating very closely on enforcement of the Gaza Egypt border.

So pray tell please how DID Hamas got all those tons of weapons and heavy arms? DHL FedEx maybe?

NO, tunnels and surface shipments for Egyptian collaborators...

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, retarius said:

Your total disregard of human life and compassion for humanity disturbs me. 

 

@retarius

 

More faux 'outrage' and moral grandstanding from an openly antisemitic poster, who's also a Putin fan, and got little issues with Hamas's actions.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

What has this got to do with the Egypt's increasing fear of a Gazan refugees flooding into Egypt due to the current Israeli assault on Rafah?

Re read the post.

 

So what do you think? Are they more fearful now? 

 

 

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, retarius said:

Whilst I agree with you that we need a two state solution now, I'd say that the UN erred gravely when they bowed to Jewish terrorism in the post war period and recognised Israel. It is now time to undo that mistake.

 

@retarius

 

The UN did not 'bow' to anything.

And given that you're issues are with Jews, rather than Israel, your comments are to be expected.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

About that claim that Hamas is using tunnels between it and Egypt to transport weapons:

Not only has Egypt for its own reason been very diligent about patrolling the zone, but even smugglers says that smuggling has stopped thanks to Egypt's strict enforcement. You can read about it in the article I linked to above. 

In fact, Egypt and Israel have been cooperating very closely on enforcement of the Gaza Egypt border.

 

Obviously, neither Egyptian diligence nor the fabled cooperation were tight enough.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, retarius said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/jabalia-camp-airstrike-gaza

 

Imaginary? See the photographic evidence. Your blindness disturbs to wilful war crimes me. You are simp[ly a shrill for Israeli war crimes. 

 

@retarius

 

Do you know what a cluster bomb is?

[OneMoreFarang]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:47 AM, Social Media said:

the United States has expressed its most pointed criticism

Bla bla bla.

Don't send weapons worth billions of USD every year to Israel and then the Israeli government might listen. 

[sirineou]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

Bla bla bla.

Don't send weapons worth billions of USD every year to Israel and then the Israeli government might listen. 

Unfortunately , Washington DC is part of the Israeli occupied territories. 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Allow me to doubt that you know what Egypt 'believes'. You can quote what Egypt says, but that's not necessarily the same thing. A whole lot of the various statements made (by all sides involved) are aimed at broadcasting warnings, rather than accurately expressing acute fears, intentions and so on. 

 

What I am sure of is that there were reports (some linked on these topics) discussing Israel and the IDF awareness of the issues, and mulling ways to address it. Several options were outlined, granted none of them seems a fully satisfactory one. And as far as I'm aware, and as others mentioned - Israel trying to convince Egypt to take in Palestinians is something that happened weeks and months ago. Egypt refused, rejected, and that was that. 

 

You want to offer an argument where this got nothing to do with Hamas's choices, tactics, and it's all down to Israel and the IDF's actions - go right ahead. You do not offer anything in support of this, nor much of an alternative. Or even a way of addressing the current situation.

 

I've no idea where you're going with your last nonsense point, sorry.

I did enjoy your comment that none of the options offered by the IDF seemed "fully satisfactory". This looks like an officialese way of saying that the are impracticable. But if not, please explain  not "fully satisfactory" means.

 

If it was just me citing what Egypt believes, you might have a point. But it isn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/egypt-gaza-israel-war.html

And someone would have to be living in a denial of reality to doubt that given the assault on Rafah and Israel pressuring to take over the southern border, Egypt wouldn't feel alarmed.

There is this from that article:

Mr. Netanyahu has said that Israel must control the zone, known as the Philadelphi Corridor, and analysts say Egypt is worried that Israel wants to seize it as a means to push Gazans into Sinai.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/egypt-gaza-israel-war.html

 

And there is an article from Reuters datelined February 9th that says Egyptian fears of a cross border incursion have been sharpened by the refugee crisis in Southern Israel: I can't quote or link to Reuters but since you have the dateline and if you string together the words Egypt Security Israeli Offensive Gaza Reuters together (feel free to copy and paste) that article will pop up.

 

Instead you just assert that the issue of settling Palestinians in Egypt has been settled and laid to rest. As for my response to that, see above.

 

And, of course I argued no arguments absolving Hamas. I criticized Israeli strategy and tactics. A critique hardly offered by me alone. But thanks for setting up the straw man. Any more arguments you would care to falsely ascribe to me?

 

As for the last point that you called nonsense. Do you honestly have no idea what Facts On The Ground Means. I guess I'll have to spell out the obvious to you. If Palestinians do cross the border into Egypt and are settled in refugee camps there, why wouldn't it be a legitimate fear that Israel won't let them back in? That it won't take advantage of this exodus? Because it's unprecedented in Israel's short history?

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Unfortunately , Washington DC is part of the Israeli occupied territories. 

 

@sirineou

 

Unfortunately, some posters are invested in Jews-control-America antisemitic conspiracy theories.

 

Wouldn't occur to you that the ones pushing for this are manufacturers, governors and representatives of states where plants are at? Relevant unions? Nah, let's go for the conspiracy theory.

[simple1]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Your deflection aside, my comment holds anyway.

Most of the criticism, pleas and so on are directed at Israel.

 

I did not "deflect". I made a statement of fact regarding the OP. The OP is in reference to action/s by the US government, not other countries. Pulling other countries making statements or not, is IMO Off Topic

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I did enjoy your comment that none of the options offered by the IDF seemed "fully satisfactory". This looks like an officialese way of saying that the are impracticable. But if not, please explain  not "fully satisfactory" means.

 

If it was just me citing what Egypt believes, you might have a point. But it isn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/egypt-gaza-israel-war.html

And someone would have to be living in a denial of reality to doubt that given the assault on Rafah and Israel pressuring to take over the southern border, Egypt wouldn't feel alarmed.

There is this from that article:

Mr. Netanyahu has said that Israel must control the zone, known as the Philadelphi Corridor, and analysts say Egypt is worried that Israel wants to seize it as a means to push Gazans into Sinai.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/egypt-gaza-israel-war.html

 

And there is an article from Reuters datelined February 9th that says Egyptian fears of a cross border incursion have been sharpened by the refugee crisis in Southern Israel: I can't quote or link to Reuters but since you have the dateline and if you string together the words Egypt Security Israeli Offensive Gaza Reuters together (feel free to copy and paste) that article will pop up.

 

Instead you just assert that the issue of settling Palestinians in Egypt has been settled and laid to rest. As for my response to that, see above.

 

And, of course I argued no arguments absolving Hamas. I criticized Israeli strategy and tactics. A critique hardly offered by me alone. But thanks for setting up the straw man. Any more arguments you would care to falsely ascribe to me?

 

As for the last point that you called nonsense. Do you honestly have no idea what Facts On The Ground Means. I guess I'll have to spell out the obvious to you. If Palestinians do cross the border into Egypt and are settled in refugee camps there, why wouldn't it be a legitimate fear that Israel won't let them back in? That it won't take advantage of this exodus? Because it's unprecedented in Israel's short history?

 

Oh dear, and there is also this from 14th Oct

 

Israeli evacuation call in Gaza hikes Egypt’s fears of a mass exodus of refugees into its territory

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-egypt-sinai-war-894d45535fed1049a0076453ca99c555

 

It was around this time where your last point here was discussed at length in topics.

 

5 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As for the last point that you called nonsense. Do you honestly have no idea what Facts On The Ground Means. I guess I'll have to spell out the obvious to you. If Palestinians do cross the border into Egypt and are settled in refugee camps there, why wouldn't it be a legitimate fear that Israel won't let them back in? That it won't take advantage of this exodus? Because it's unprecedented in Israel's short history?

 

 

[placeholder]

28 minutes ago, ezzra said:

So pray tell please how DID Hamas got all those tons of weapons and heavy arms? DHL FedEx maybe?

NO, tunnels and surface shipments for Egyptian collaborators...

 

Well, for one thing..;.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/egypt-reportedly-steps-up-security-on-border-as-idf-offensive-in-rafah-nears/

For another... Gaza has a border on the Mediterranean. 

For another, it gets some of them delivered by air from a surprising source

Where Is Hamas Getting Its Weapons? Increasingly, From Israel.

The very weapons that Israeli forces have used to enforce a blockade of Gaza are now being used against them.

https://archive.ph/ipeKM#selection-4215.0-4219.109

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@sirineou

 

Unfortunately, some posters are invested in Jews-control-America antisemitic conspiracy theories.

 

Wouldn't occur to you that the ones pushing for this are manufacturers, governors and representatives of states where plants are at? Relevant unions? Nah, let's go for the conspiracy theory.

Apart from the fact that the most uncritical supporters of Israel are Evangelicals who comprise a big portion of the Republican base.

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Oh dear, and there is also this from 14th Oct

 

Israeli evacuation call in Gaza hikes Egypt’s fears of a mass exodus of refugees into its territory

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-egypt-sinai-war-894d45535fed1049a0076453ca99c555

 

It was around this time where your last point here was discussed at length in topics.

 

 

And you think Egypt's level of concern hasn't changed from almost 4 months ago now that there are 1.45 million Palestinians living on the border and actually under threat? That Israel has put increasing pressure on Egypt to take over the Philadelphi border?

[placeholder]

39 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Obviously, neither Egyptian diligence nor the fabled cooperation were tight enough.

Why is that obvious? The claim is that weapons are still getting through the border. The evidence is....? As the Times of Israel article pointed out, Egypt has taken even stronger measures to stop smuggling. The NY Times article also addressed that issue.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

And you think Egypt's level of concern hasn't changed from almost 4 months ago now that there are 1.45 million Palestinians living on the border and actually under threat? That Israel has put increasing pressure on Egypt to take over the Philadelphi border?

I already answered that when you asked me, how many more times?

 

I am still waiting for you to do the same.

 

So what do you think? Are they more fearful now? 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I did enjoy your comment that none of the options offered by the IDF seemed "fully satisfactory". This looks like an officialese way of saying that the are impracticable. But if not, please explain  not "fully satisfactory" means.

 

If it was just me citing what Egypt believes, you might have a point. But it isn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/egypt-gaza-israel-war.html

And someone would have to be living in a denial of reality to doubt that given the assault on Rafah and Israel pressuring to take over the southern border, Egypt wouldn't feel alarmed.

There is this from that article:

Mr. Netanyahu has said that Israel must control the zone, known as the Philadelphi Corridor, and analysts say Egypt is worried that Israel wants to seize it as a means to push Gazans into Sinai.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/world/middleeast/egypt-gaza-israel-war.html

 

And there is an article from Reuters datelined February 9th that says Egyptian fears of a cross border incursion have been sharpened by the refugee crisis in Southern Israel: I can't quote or link to Reuters but since you have the dateline and if you string together the words Egypt Security Israeli Offensive Gaza Reuters together (feel free to copy and paste) that article will pop up.

 

Instead you just assert that the issue of settling Palestinians in Egypt has been settled and laid to rest. As for my response to that, see above.

 

And, of course I argued no arguments absolving Hamas. I criticized Israeli strategy and tactics. A critique hardly offered by me alone. But thanks for setting up the straw man. Any more arguments you would care to falsely ascribe to me?

 

As for the last point that you called nonsense. Do you honestly have no idea what Facts On The Ground Means. I guess I'll have to spell out the obvious to you. If Palestinians do cross the border into Egypt and are settled in refugee camps there, why wouldn't it be a legitimate fear that Israel won't let them back in? That it won't take advantage of this exodus? Because it's unprecedented in Israel's short history?

 

 

Unsatisfactory, as in not providing full or good enough solutions. Not too complicated. Not quite what you presented it as.

 

What you posted got little bearing on my comment - not all statements accurately reflect concrete issues, many are warnings, broadcasts of positions, and so on.

 

Take for example the notion that Israel wishes to control the Philadelphi Corridor as a means to push Gazans into Sinai. Israel would not need to 'control' this in order to make it happen. It's a bogus idea. The issue with that is more about Egyptian sovereignty regarding the border, and the peace agreement details between the countries. The refugee bit is a relatively new addition to this complaint, I think.

 

The issue of settling Palestinians in Sinai has been laid to rest. Won't happen. Even accepting claims regarding Egypt's 'fears' at face value, that's not a thing.

 

You criticize Israeli strategy and actions as if they are taking place in a vacuum, and have nothing to do with Hamas's strategy, choices, and actions. Not a straw man, and no false comments. Try harder.

 

Indeed, I do not see how Israel could deny their return (if such was on the cards, even - so far this is just talk).

 

 

[placeholder]

I already replied to both you and Morch about his. Here's my reply to you:

And for a lagniappe, here's my reply to Morch:

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

I did not "deflect". I made a statement of fact regarding the OP. The OP is in reference to action/s by the US government, not other countries. Pulling other countries making statements or not, is IMO Off Topic

 

You're entitled to your opinion.

My opinion is that you're deflecting.

 

And as said, I think my comment holds regardless.

Most of the focus is on Israel's actions, strategy and so on - relatively little said about Hamas' choices and strategy, how they contributed to this situation, or how they effect Israel's options.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

I already replied to both you and Morch about his. Here's my reply to you:

And for a lagniappe, here's my reply to Morch:

So you missed mine then:

 

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Apart from the fact that the most uncritical supporters of Israel are Evangelicals who comprise a big portion of the Republican base.

 

And ?

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And you think Egypt's level of concern hasn't changed from almost 4 months ago now that there are 1.45 million Palestinians living on the border and actually under threat? That Israel has put increasing pressure on Egypt to take over the Philadelphi border?

 

I think you're intent on seeing things a certain way.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Why is that obvious? The claim is that weapons are still getting through the border. The evidence is....? As the Times of Israel article pointed out, Egypt has taken even stronger measures to stop smuggling. The NY Times article also addressed that issue.

 

Because Egypt 'taking stronger measures' or saying it would is pretty much a meme, in this context.

 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Unsatisfactory, as in not providing full or good enough solutions. Not too complicated. Not quite what you presented it as.

 

What you posted got little bearing on my comment - not all statements accurately reflect concrete issues, many are warnings, broadcasts of positions, and so on.

 

Take for example the notion that Israel wishes to control the Philadelphi Corridor as a means to push Gazans into Sinai. Israel would not need to 'control' this in order to make it happen. It's a bogus idea. The issue with that is more about Egyptian sovereignty regarding the border, and the peace agreement details between the countries. The refugee bit is a relatively new addition to this complaint, I think.

 

The issue of settling Palestinians in Sinai has been laid to rest. Won't happen. Even accepting claims regarding Egypt's 'fears' at face value, that's not a thing.

 

You criticize Israeli strategy and actions as if they are taking place in a vacuum, and have nothing to do with Hamas's strategy, choices, and actions. Not a straw man, and no false comments. Try harder.

 

Indeed, I do not see how Israel could deny their return (if such was on the cards, even - so far this is just talk).

 

 

So what exactlyl does unsatisfactory mean? What plans has Israel offered that could make a significant difference and not force the Palestinians to flee South.

 

You're right. Israel doesn't need to control the border to push them out. But it help them to avoid a confrontation with Egyptian forces.

 

I was afraid for a moment that you wouldn't explain why the issue of settling Palestinians in Egypt has been laid to rest. Egypt doesn't think so. And why, even if it isn't called "settling" but something like "sheltering", why it wouldn't turn into "settling".

 

It's a good thing for your argument that it's just me criticizing Israeli strategy & tactics and not, among others, the US government. Because if that were the case, it would invalidate your critique.

 

As for denying the return of Palestinians. Egypt has built 3 lines of berms and a wall.  And done a quite thorough job on tunnels. And doesn't Israel have such things as robotic machine guns at its disposal? I seem to recall something about that.

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

So you missed mine then:

 

What's your point? What you outlined is not a question.

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I think you're intent on seeing things a certain way.

 Instead of addressing the argument, go to intent. Mind-reading much?

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Because Egypt 'taking stronger measures' or saying it would is pretty much a meme, in this context.

 

You might try reading that Times of Israel article before pronouncing what I posted to be a meme. And the nytimes article, too.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

What's your point? What you outlined is not a question.

 your question below, I showed you where it was already answered

 

22 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And you think Egypt's level of concern hasn't changed from almost 4 months ago now that there are 1.45 million Palestinians living on the border and actually under threat? That Israel has put increasing pressure on Egypt to take over the Philadelphi border?