As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

[Yellowtail]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:24 AM, Morch said:

I find it interesting that in all this, there is little by way of pleas or pressure on Hamas to stop the war, care for the civilians under its rule, and so on. Not a whole lot of that from the international community, specifically from Arab countries.

 

When it suits, Hamas is a 'terrorist organization' so no expectations, no accountability demanded. Other times, it's a legit representative of the people.

I think a big portion of the $9.2B in US aid will going to Hamas Gaza and the West Bank to make them more accountable. 

[metisdead]

A post contravening our fair use policy has been removed:

 

27. You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Only post a link, the headline and three sentences from the article. Content in the public domain is limited to the same restrictions.

 

Some off topic posts and replies were removed as well. 

 

[Yellowtail]

58 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I believe he is Israeli, hence the bias. 

It is shocking how the people that stand to be eradicated by Hamas are biased against Hamas, while the people that share Hamas' hatred of Jews/Israelis/Zionists are completely unbiased. 

[Bkk Brian]

Video inside his luxury tunnel hideout. Serious amounts of cash left in the safe. 

 

Watch: IDF forces have discovered and entered Hamas's leader Sinwar's very own luxurious hideout tunnel, fully loaded with food, bathrooms and showers, a kitchen, huge amounts of cash and of course, UNRWA's food bags. Sinwar, a mass murderer, will be caught.

 

https://twitter.com/ofirgendelman/status/1757627203313910049

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Video inside his luxury tunnel hideout. Serious amounts of cash left in the safe. 

 

Watch: IDF forces have discovered and entered Hamas's leader Sinwar's very own luxurious hideout tunnel, fully loaded with food, bathrooms and showers, a kitchen, huge amounts of cash and of course, UNRWA's food bags. Sinwar, a mass murderer, will be caught.

 

https://twitter.com/ofirgendelman/status/1757627203313910049

 

 

Have a 'butchers' at all that foreign aid money he had stashed; and enough room there to accommodate many families, rather than leaving them on the surface as his personal protection ..... what a stain on humanity 

 

[WDSmart]

What I fear now, as the IDF prepares to invade and devastate Rafah, is what Hamas and its local allies will do with any hostages they still hold. I think there are now 34. These hostages are, as it should be evident, virtually the only bargaining chips Hamas has in its negotiations with the Israelis. The recent recovery of the two hostages cost the lives of about 67 Palestinians (the latest figure from CNN - and no, CNN did not present a breakdown of this number into Hamas militants vs. Palestinian civilians), and, of course, reduced Hamas's bargaining power. I suspect Hamas will start guarding the hostages they still have more tightly. That would mean keeping them in more secure places, which would probably be less accomodating. Also, I wouldn't doubt that Hamas would make some kind of arrangements (I won't suggest them here so I won't be accused of justifying them) to make sure no more hostages can be rescued, even if the IDF does fight their way through the forces and structures that hold them.

So far, everything I've predicted (projected) has come true for the most part. I now predict that if the IDF moves forward with their plans for this onslaught of Rafah, the number of hostages will indeed be reduced, but not in the way the Israelis would like. 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

4 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

(the latest figure from CNN - and no, CNN did not present a breakdown of this number into Hamas militants vs. Palestinian civilians)

 

And where did the ever reliable CNN get those figures from ? ......

 

rhetorical 

 

Every single statistic you quote comes from Hamas, either directly, or indirectly, but you keep presenting them as facts; you are the most disingenuous poster on this thread, and that is against some stiff opposition  

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

And where did the ever reliable CNN get those figures from ? ......

 

rhetorical 

I don't know for sure. Probably from the local health agencies in Rafah. Here is another source that has the same number and quotes that source. At least 67 Palestinians killed in Rafah in wake of Israeli hostage rescue in Gaza | CBC News

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

don't know for sure. Probably from the local health agencies in Rafah

 

 

And who controls the local health agencies in Rafah .... have a guess, go on; if you get it wrong you can have a second go. 

[WDSmart]

4 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

 

And who controls the local health agencies in Rafah .... have a guess, go on; if you get it wrong you can have a second go. 

Okay, so whose figures would you believe? The IDFs? How would they know how many were killed? I couldn't find any IDF estimate of numbers killed in an Internet search. They did claim there were two hostages rescued, though. They claimed that over and over and over again, but no mention of how many Palestinian lives that cost . Much like the traffic here on this Topic. 

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Okay, so whose figures would you believe? The IDFs? How would they know how many were killed? I couldn't find any IDF estimate of numbers killed in an Internet search. They did claim there were two hostages rescued, though. They claimed that over and over and over again, but no mention of how many Palestinian lives that cost . Much like the traffic here on this Topic. 

How many Hamas lives lost, and how many Palestinian civilian lives lost do you think would be acceptable to retrieve the two hostages?  

[WDSmart]

5 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How many Hamas lives lost, and how many Palestinian civilian lives lost do you think would be acceptable to retrieve the two hostages?  

That's an EXCELLENT question and goes to the heart of this matter.

I think NO LIVES LOST on either side would be the only ACCEPTABLE figure to retrieve not only these two hostages but the other 34 also.

I think that could be done with an agreement that includes Hamas returning the hostages unharmed for a permanent ceasefire and other agreements on both sides. I've posted my suggested outline for such an agreement before, and it was deleted, so I won't post it again. But I'll say any agreement has to include not only a hostage return and a ceasefire but also a UN peacekeeping force and an eventual two-state solution. 

And, no more lives lost on either side.

[scottiejohn]

44 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How many Hamas lives lost, and how many Palestinian civilian lives lost do you think would be acceptable to retrieve the two hostages?  

As many as it takes!

They should never have been taken hostage in the first place.

If you were a hostage would you say to your potential rescuers that they must not kill more than.....(insert your number) and once they reach that number they should stop?

[WDSmart]

This upcoming IDF attack on Rafah just may be the last step of the culmination the goals of BOTH Hamas and Israel.

 

Here is how that might be the case…

Israel may have aided/allowed the Oct 7 terrorist attack to have a reason to invade and Gaza.

-          There have been reports that Israel may have known about the funding of this attack and allowed them to continue. I don’t necessarily believe these. I don’t think Israel, even the most militant Zionists, would have gone that far, but some do. How Israel Secretly Propped Up Hamas - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

-          There have also been reports that Israel knew about the preparation for this attack, and did nothing to prevent it. I believe these allegations. Israeli intelligence leak details extent of warnings over Hamas attack | Israel | The Guardian But I believe they did not realize Hamas’ attack would be as widespread and as devastating as it was.

 

I believe if either or both of these are true, Israel may have done this to give them the justification for launching a full-scale bombing and destruction of Gaza, with the end goal of either killing or driving all Palestinians out, or at least gaining complete control of Gaza and forcing a one-state solution.

Hamas may have launched their Oct 7 terrorist attack to provoke the Israelis into attacking Gaza.

-          They also took around 200 hostages.  Hamas Took More Than 200 Hostages From Israel. Here’s What We Know. - WSJ All but 34? of those have been recovered at this time. Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages as airstrikes kill around 100 Palestinians in Rafah (msn.com) I believe Hamas did this believing these hostages would be important bargaining chips (or so they thought) in what they hoped would be their negotiations with Israel. 

-          Also, they did this knowing Israel with the IDF would go overboard in their attacks on Gaza, and this would eventually weaken the support they had, up to now, been given by the UN and important allies, like the USA, forcing Israel to negotiate a two-state solution.

If I am correct in my assumptions above, both sides have accomplished the first parts of their plan, and it could very likely be the upcoming IDF attack on Rafah that will decide whose plan will succeed in the end.

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

What I fear now, as the IDF prepares to invade and devastate Rafah, is what Hamas and its local allies will do with any hostages they still hold. I think there are now 34. These hostages are, as it should be evident, virtually the only bargaining chips Hamas has in its negotiations with the Israelis. The recent recovery of the two hostages cost the lives of about 67 Palestinians (the latest figure from CNN - and no, CNN did not present a breakdown of this number into Hamas militants vs. Palestinian civilians), and, of course, reduced Hamas's bargaining power. I suspect Hamas will start guarding the hostages they still have more tightly. That would mean keeping them in more secure places, which would probably be less accomodating. Also, I wouldn't doubt that Hamas would make some kind of arrangements (I won't suggest them here so I won't be accused of justifying them) to make sure no more hostages can be rescued, even if the IDF does fight their way through the forces and structures that hold them.

So far, everything I've predicted (projected) has come true for the most part. I now predict that if the IDF moves forward with their plans for this onslaught of Rafah, the number of hostages will indeed be reduced, but not in the way the Israelis would like. 

 I think there are now 34. 

 

Think again and add another figure onto the 2 you have there.

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 I think there are now 34. 

 

Think again and add another figure onto the 2 you have there.

I don't understand what your objection is. I said I "thought" (last read) that there were 34 remaining hostages and 67 dead during this recent hostage recovery. Do you have a source that has different figures than this? 

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I don't understand what your objection is. I said I "thought" (last read) that there were 34 remaining hostages and 67 dead during this recent hostage recovery. Do you have a source that has different figures than this? 

Where is your source that there is only 34 remaining hostages first? 

[WDSmart]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Where is your source that there is only 34 remining hostages first?

Here is what I read and my source, dated today, which I posted a link to above, giving the 34 remaining hostages.
"After Monday’s rescue, the total number of hostages left in Gaza is 134, Hagari said. Of that number, 130 hostages are from the October 7 attack – with 29 dead and 101 believed to be alive. The other four had been held in Gaza prior to the attack."
Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages as airstrikes kill around 100 Palestinians in Rafah (msn.com) 

How many do you think is left? And what is your source? I have no doubt there could be differences. I doubt if even Hamas knows how many they and their local allies have. And the Israelis might think some of those missing have been taken as hostages, but they were not. 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

Here is what I read and my source, dated today, which I posted a link to above, giving the 34 remaining hostages.
"After Monday’s rescue, the total number of hostages left in Gaza is 134, Hagari said. Of that number, 130 hostages are from the October 7 attack – with 29 dead and 101 believed to be alive. The other four had been held in Gaza prior to the attack."
Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages as airstrikes kill around 100 Palestinians in Rafah (msn.com) 

How many do you think is left? And what is your source? I have no doubt there could be differences. I doubt if even Hamas knows how many they and their local allies have. And the Israelis might think some of those missing have been taken as hostages, but they were not. 

It tells you in your own link. 101 alive and the bodies of 29 that are dead!! Those dead have been dead for a long time, they are still keeping the bodies and will not return them.

[WDSmart]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

14 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Here is what I read and my source, dated today, which I posted a link to above, giving the 34 remaining hostages.
"After Monday’s rescue, the total number of hostages left in Gaza is 134, Hagari said. Of that number, 130 hostages are from the October 7 attack – with 29 dead and 101 believed to be alive. The other four had been held in Gaza prior to the attack."
Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages as airstrikes kill around 100 Palestinians in Rafah (msn.com) 

How many do you think is left? And what is your source? I have no doubt there could be differences. I doubt if even Hamas knows how many they and their local allies have. And the Israelis might think some of those missing have been taken as hostages, but they were not. 

It tells you in your own link. 101 alive and the bodies of 29 that are dead!! Those dead have been dead for a long time, they are still keeping the bodies and will not return them.

@Bkk Brian: Why are you going on and on about this? If you only want to say there are 101 LIVE hostages (plus 4 others), and not count the bodies of the dead hostages, just say so. That's all I asked. I say there are 134, just as Hagari said above. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

@Bkk Brian: Why are you going on and on about this? If you only want to say there are 101 LIVE hostages (plus 4 others), and not count the bodies of the dead hostages, just say so. That's all I asked. I say there are 134, just as Hagari said above. 

What? This started because you said there was only 34 remaining, make your mind up!

 

32 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I don't understand what your objection is. I said I "thought" (last read) that there were 34 remaining hostages and 67 dead during this recent hostage recovery. Do you have a source that has different figures than this? 

 

[WDSmart]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

What? This started because you said there was only 34 remaining, make your mind up!

 

 

Okay, so that was a typo. I've said over and over again there were 134. 

If you want to engage with me, why don't you engage with me over some important points? And, in the end, it really doesn't matter if there are 134, 101, 34, or just 1 hostage. It still presents the same problem in this scenario. Hamas is holding them and Israel wants them back.

[Bkk Brian]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Okay, so that was a typo. I've said over and over again there were 134. 

If you want to engage with me, why don't you engage with me over some important points? And, in the end, it really doesn't matter if there are 134, 101, 34, or just 1 hostage. It still presents the same problem in this scenario. Hamas is holding them and Israel wants them back.

Well that's the second typo you made and the second time you claimed it was correct. No this is not about points but it is about facts where numbers matter, they matter a lot the the families waiting at home. 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Video snippet here on an interview with an expert and the realities of urban warfare. Full vid about 12 mins long here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erw8GSvr9Tw

 

 

Maj. (Ret.) John Spencer (@SpencerGuard), Author  of “Understanding Urban Warfare” speaks with i24NEWS about the IDF’s ground operation from an expert’s perspective

 

 

[mooping20Baht]

21 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, I do understand and see the entire picture. You don't, and that, and at least the following four reasons, is why you believe I am supportive of Hamas.
1. The first and most potent is that you are so biased in favor of the Zionist and/or Israeli positions that you judge any post that questions or challenges that perspective is supportive of Hamas and/or Palestinian positions.

2. The second is that there is no need for me to post supportively of the Zionist and/or Israeli positions since you and several others constantly deluge this Topic with those.

3. The third is I am not supportive of the Zionist position, which is focused on gaining control of all of the land in question by any means necessary. I am supportive of the more moderate Israeli positions, like wanting the hostages returned unharmed and wanting assurance that there will never be another Oct 7th-like attack, but without relying on the carnage caused by the continuing Zionist-led attacks on Gaza.
4. The fourth is I am not supportive of the Hamas position, which is also focused on gaining control of all of the land in question by any means necessary. I am supportive of the more moderate Palestinian position, which is focused on reaching some agreement with the Israelis on how both of them can live on this same land in peace, which most likely implies some kind of two-state solution.

 

IMO, Zionist will never allow 2 states, just listen to them. Their mission has never really been to "get rid of Hamas", it is to take all the land by any means necessary.

 

This is the best explanation for the behavior of The Israel State, since the beginning.

[Nick Carter icp]

 

   Looks like Isreal have pulled out of ceasefire talks in Egypt 

 

 

Israel Media Report Netanyahu Has Pulled Out of Cease-fire Talks in Egypt

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/14/world/middleeast/israel-egypt-netanyahu-negotiate.html

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 hours ago, mooping20Baht said:

hard as they try they will find no excuse for genocide.

 

just as Lady MacBeth, they will scrub scrub scrub, but the damn spot of murder& blood will not come off their hands (and brains)

 

Try putting the word ‘genocide’ into google, or any other search engine of your choice, to find out the meaning of the word, because you obviously have no idea whatsoever of its meaning; maybe then you will stop throwing it around like a mindless, shouty, student protester.

 

[WDSmart]

18 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

Try putting the word ‘genocide’ into google, or any other search engine of your choice, to find out the meaning of the word, because you obviously have no idea whatsoever of its meaning; maybe then you will stop throwing it around like a mindless, shouty, student protester.

 

Here is the result of my Bing search for "genocide" and the definition provided by the online Oxford Language Dictionary:

"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group" genocide definition - Search (bing.com)

If you think that's not a 100% accurate description of what Israel is doing in Gaza, you're just refusing to accept the facts like an arrogant, know-it-all, wanna-be professor.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

15 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Here is the result of my Bing search for "genocide" and the definition provided by the online Oxford Language Dictionary:

"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group" genocide definition - Search (bing.com)

If you think that's not a 100% accurate description of what Israel is doing in Gaza, you're just refusing to accept the facts like an arrogant, know-it-all, wanna-be professor.

 

You can voice as many of your myriad warped, biased, antisemitic opinions as you like; what you cannot do however, is change the meaning of words in the English language.

 

Israel are 100% not attempting genocide in Gaza, and if you really don’t understand that, you have a good case to take legal action against whichever authority was responsible for your English language education; but keep up the personal insults, I thoroughly enjoy the exposure of your true colours.

 

[WDSmart]

7 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

You can voice as many of your myriad warped, biased, antisemitic opinions as you like; what you cannot do however, is change the meaning of words in the English language.

 

Israel are 100% not attempting genocide in Gaza, and if you really don’t understand that, you have a good case to take legal action against whichever authority was responsible for your English language education; but keep up the personal insults, I thoroughly enjoy the exposure of your true colours.

 

My opinions are not warped, biased, or anti-Semitic. My opinions are well-thought-out, unbiased, and neither anti-Hebrew(Jew) nor anti-Arab(Muslim). That's the basis of your problem with them. They are not pro-Israeli, so you judge them to be biased because of YOUR extreme, biased, anti-Semitic perspective.

I have a BA with an English Major, have authored nine published books, and have edited and helped publish over 200 other books (in English), so, I think my use of the English language should be good enough for posting in this Forum and Topic.

My post above, to which you are referring, merely pointed out that your objection to the use of the word "genocide" was not warranted and did so by using the very method you suggested - looking it up online. I could also add that the pending charges against Israel that are being considered by the UN's International Court of Justice (ICJ) include the very charge of "genocide."

And my insult at the end of my post was done only to mirror your insult. Your posts usually contain some sort of insult. Mine, with the exception of this last one, usually don't.