Israeli Soldier Videos from Gaza Raise International Law Concerns

[OneMoreFarang]

15 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  What the hell are you going on about rocket scientists for ?

My point was that you don't have to personally speak to people to understand their position on matters , not when that person publicly states their opinion and position .

   So you asking me how many Hamas people I have personally spoken to , was a rather unintelligent question to ask 

It's you who pretends to know why they do what they do. 

[Wobblybob]

Just now, OneMoreFarang said:

It's you who pretends to know why they do what they do. 

'Keep digging' as the Palestian terrorist said to the builder.

[OneMoreFarang]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

Some soldiers obviously do. Does that allow for wide brush comments?

If it was a policy, or really widespread, or denied - maybe you'd have a point.

But it's not.

Thanks for finally admitting that such soldiers exist.

I don't know how many are like that. And I guess Israel won't investigate and publish how widespread that is.

Fact is, some exist. And it seems enough of them think their behavior is something they want to publish and show the world. 

[Morch]

54 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Israel could bring the perpetrators to justice. That isn't the same as murdering them together with innocent Palestinians who got in the way.

 

Any realistic suggestion on how to bring thousands of terrorists holding hostages and holed up among civilians to justice?

[The Fugitive]

44 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

Oh I see, all clear now, what you are saying is that the Palestian terrorists will hand themselves in without Israel having to go looking for them, why didn't anybody else think of that.

I've previously seen footage on TV news of Israel 'responding' to a suicide bomb attack. They knew exactly which house the now deceased bomber lived in. They sent a helicopter armed with missiles and destroyed his house from the air. Israeli intelligence, surveillance and technology is top notch. No excuse for slaughtering women and children in the numbers they have/are doing.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It's you who pretends to know why they do what they do. 

 

   I have read the Hamas  charter and know what they want and I have listened to their interviews.

You haven't read their charter have you ?

You don't know what they want and you form an opinion  through ignorance 

[Brickleberry]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Any realistic suggestion on how to bring thousands of terrorists holding hostages and holed up among civilians to justice?

 

I'd start by acknowledging that they are freedom fighters, fighting their oppressors - the people who steal their land, lock up their kids whilst pretending to the world they are a beacon of light in a dark corner of the world. Their tactics are disgusting, but they are what they are. An oppressed people fighting for freedom. 

[Morch]

41 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

With how many Hamas members did you discuss this issue? 

 

You opine on Israeli and Palestinian points of view. I kinda doubt you know many. Or spend much time there. The Middle East, even.

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I understand that is the idea.

But do you think Israel will be able to kill all Hamas members? 

And while they try to do that, they kill tens of thousands of ordinary people. How many of those people do you think will join Hamas later or any other freedom fighter group?

 

Hamas are 'freedom fighters' now?

Earlier you said terrorists.

 

 

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

It never ends whilst Israel keeps stealing and occupying Palestinian lands.

 

No IDF troops in the Gaza Strip on 6/10.

[OneMoreFarang]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

These topic are mostly about ongoing events. Some posters feel that each and every topic requires a full rehashing of the history of the conflict - obviously with bias narratives on show and so on.  Context is not unimportant, but when it serves as a constant deflection, a way to normalize actions like 7/10, or justify them - it loses it's relevance.

 

This topic is about something rather specific. A whole lot of posters comment on anything but. Same on many other topics.

 

Some topics are specific, some more general in nature. Time and place. Some order needed for the possibility of discussion.

 

I think with some topics, like this one, it can't be seen or understood without looking at history.

And sometimes this history is a long history, and sometimes a very long history.

Just looking at the last couple of months or even years reveilles only a small part of that history.

 

And for the record: I know that with Israel and Palestine there is a very long history. I know some of it, but all in all very little.

Palestinians can explain why they think what they think and do what they do, and Israelis can do the same.

We all know it shouldn't go on like this.

But we also know it is just too difficult and there is no easy solution. 

[Brickleberry]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Hamas are 'freedom fighters' now?

Earlier you said terrorists.

 

 

Hamas literally translates as resistance fighters - ergo freedom fighters. They are classified as a terrorist organization, but then again so was Nelson Mandela and his organization.

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

I think with some topics, like this one, it can't be seen or understood without looking at history.

And sometimes this history is a long history, and sometimes a very long history.

Just looking at the last couple of months or even years reveilles only a small part of that history.

 

And for the record: I know that with Israel and Palestine there is a very long history. I know some of it, but all in all very little.

Palestinians can explain why they think what they think and do what they do, and Israelis can do the same.

We all know it shouldn't go on like this.

But we also know it is just too difficult and there is no easy solution. 

 

Actually it is not complicated or difficult at all.

 

Israel needs to leave all occupied territories and return the land that was stolen. Withdraw to its 1948 border plan.

 

Hamas, Palestinians and the Arab league have all been singing from the same page: do this, and we will have peace.

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, bannork said:

And all the time Israel continues its wholesale slaughter of innocents, it's creating new martyrs, a new Hamas 

 

Whereas Hamas's actions (like holding on to the hostages) generate goodwill among Israelis?

Also, do you think all Gazans will blindly follow Hamas after that?

 

[Morch]

14 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Dead people can't join any club. I thought that is obvious also for the mentally challenged.  

But how many family members and friends of those killed will want revenge?

I don't know how many. But I am pretty sure a lot more than zero. 

 

A whole lot of them would have joined anyway.

[The Fugitive]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Any realistic suggestion on how to bring thousands of terrorists holding hostages and holed up among civilians to justice?

Israel knows who the Hamas commanders are who orchestrated the 07th October 2023 operation. The key is Rafah crossing. They've tried to insist upon taking control but Egypt refuses. Personally, I hope Mohammed Deif and his deputy Marwan Issa have long gone and can fight another day.

[Brickleberry]

Just now, The Fugitive said:

Israel knows who the Hamas commanders are who orchestrated the 07th October 2023 operation. The key is Rafah crossing. They've tried to insist upon taking control but Egypt refuses. Personally, I hope Mohammed Deif and his deputy Marwan Issa  have long gone and can fight another day.

 

Egypt is going to suspend the peace treaty is has with Israel, if they go in to Rafah. The world has had enough. The world can see what is going on.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-10-2024-2d80dc890a5030757e2ae76684fa75da

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks for finally admitting that such soldiers exist.

I don't know how many are like that. And I guess Israel won't investigate and publish how widespread that is.

Fact is, some exist. And it seems enough of them think their behavior is something they want to publish and show the world. 

 

Admitting? Finally? You should really give it a rest. I never denied such things. The positions you attribute to me are products of your imagination.

 

In the past, Israel was not big on investigating such allegations and cases. That's true. Not that there weren't investigations - but not every time, and not with (generally) concrete results. But two elements change that - one is the advent of social media (allowing 'bad' soldiers to share stuff, and critics to find it), and the current international legal situation (both with regard to the ICJ, and BIden's latest move). So I think there are chances we may see more 'action' or actual consequences.

 

On 7/10 and I started receiving clips from two Gazans I was in touch with (not friends, not colleagues). The stuff on display was way out there relative to anything shown with regard to IDF soldiers acting badly. You can go on and say terrorists vs. army. But still. Some proportions are in order. Take the OP, for example. One of them, by the way, was one of them freelance photographers working for several Western media outlets. He was on the list of those whom such agencies cut ties with right after that. And was bombed to oblivion on the 9th or 10th. May he rot in hell.

[Nick Carter icp]

23 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Dead people can't join any club. I thought that is obvious also for the mentally challenged.  

 

 

   Yes, it is obvious to me  that dead people cannot join Hamas , but YOU did ask that question .

How many of the people who got  killed will join Hamas , join Hamas because they got killed ?

[Bkk Brian]

37 minutes ago, bannork said:

And all the time Israel continues its wholesale slaughter of innocents, it's creating new martyrs, a new Hamas 

The UNRWA teachers did a very good job of creating new martyrs and new Hamas don't worry about that.

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

I've previously seen footage on TV news of Israel 'responding' to a suicide bomb attack. They knew exactly which house the now deceased bomber lived in. They sent a helicopter armed with missiles and destroyed his house from the air. Israeli intelligence, surveillance and technology is top notch. No excuse for slaughtering women and children in the numbers they have/are doing.

 

Israeli intelligence was caught with pants down on 7/10. Obviously, not as top notch as thought. If Israel had that kind of intelligence, it would have been acted upon.

 

5 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Israel knows who the Hamas commanders are who orchestrated the 07th October 2023 operation. The key is Rafah crossing. They've tried to insist upon taking control but Egypt refuses. Personally, I hope Mohammed Deif and his deputy Marwan Issa have long gone and can fight another day.

 

Oh, so you think this is just about the commanders? All the rapists and murderers who participated get a free pass? How about all them mobs of Gazans who joined in later on?

 

And yes, I'm aware that you're a Hamas fanboy, a terrorist supporter. Thanks for making it clear again - just for the next time someone will claim that 'no one...'

 

 

You made a bogus proposition, you cannot support it.

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Egypt is going to suspend the peace treaty is has with Israel, if they go in to Rafah. The world has had enough. The world can see what is going on.

 

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-10-2024-2d80dc890a5030757e2ae76684fa75da

 

   Stop misrepresenting reports , the link says no such thing , 

 

 

"would threaten the four-decade-old peace treaty between Israel and Egypt."

[Morch]

25 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I'd start by acknowledging that they are freedom fighters, fighting their oppressors - the people who steal their land, lock up their kids whilst pretending to the world they are a beacon of light in a dark corner of the world. Their tactics are disgusting, but they are what they are. An oppressed people fighting for freedom. 

 

@Brickleberry

 

Sure. Because that's how countries react to major terrorist attacks. They stop and embrace the terrorists narrative, appease them, and then commit national suicide.

 

Calling Hamas 'freedom fighters' is a choice. That's usually a label held up by such countries as Russia, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, North Korea etc. Western countries tend designate them as terrorists. You choose to go with the former. Interesting.

 

 

[Morch]

24 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

I think with some topics, like this one, it can't be seen or understood without looking at history.

And sometimes this history is a long history, and sometimes a very long history.

Just looking at the last couple of months or even years reveilles only a small part of that history.

 

And for the record: I know that with Israel and Palestine there is a very long history. I know some of it, but all in all very little.

Palestinians can explain why they think what they think and do what they do, and Israelis can do the same.

We all know it shouldn't go on like this.

But we also know it is just too difficult and there is no easy solution. 

 

The topic we're on is: Israeli Soldier Videos from Gaza Raise International Law Concerns.

I think it can be discussed without rehashing the entire history of the conflict.

 

Same goes for many of the more specific topics on hand.

There are wider topics, where such references are more fitting.

 

Regardless, one of the constant reminders from staff here is to refrain from such history lessons.

More often then not, such 'discussions' turn into arguments about details, with posters entrenched in respective narratives.

Maybe if this was a different kind of website, there would be more room for that, as it stands....pffft.

 

The 'for the record' is waffle.

 

 

 

 

[Brickleberry]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No IDF troops in the Gaza Strip on 6/10.

 

You can attempt to deflect by saying "Gaza is not West Bank, there have been no IDF troops or settlers since 2005" but that fails for two reasons.

 

1) The international community has said that Gaza is occupied by Israel. Fact. 

 

2) Palestinian lands. Palestinian lands that Israel is occupying, and has been since 1967. Gaza is not some separate entity with different people. West Bank is not a separate entity with different people, East Jerusalem is not a separate entity with different people.

 

You cannot separate the different parts of Palestinian lands and say "well, we're only occupying some of it, we aren't occupying that part - so these people here have no reason to fight against us." Seriously, who thinks like that? If the French invaded London and started building settlements, I'm sure people in other UK cities would have something to say about it, and would fight back. Would they be terrorists? To the French, yes. To the British, they would be freedom fighters. 

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/

Quote

Specifically, experts from the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory found “noting” positions held by the UN Security Council, UNGA, a 2014 declaration adopted by the Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, the ICRC, and “positions of previous commissions of inquiry,” that Israel has “control exercised over, inter alia, [Gaza’s] airspace and territorial waters, land crossings at the borders, supply of civilian infrastructure, including water and electricity, and key governmental functions such as the management of the Palestinian population registry.” They also point to “other forms of force, such as military incursions and firing missiles.”

 

For the Gaza-Egypt border, they hold that while the Palestinian Authority operates the crossing under the supervision of EU monitors, Israel ultimately has control. Israeli security forces supervise the passenger lists—deciding who can cross—and monitor the operations and can withhold the “consent and cooperation” required to keep the crossing open. In that vein, experts note that Israel’s “coercive measures” have further “impeded efforts to build proper democratic institutions,” and that Israel still has not transferred sovereign powers and instead maintains control over “the [Palestinian Authority]’s ability to function effectively.” Based on the actual exercise of effective control, they, therefore, find that Israel has occupied Gaza since the broader occupation of Palestine began in 1967.

 

 

 

 

[Brickleberry]

18 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Stop misrepresenting reports , the link says no such thing , 

 

 

"would threaten the four-decade-old peace treaty between Israel and Egypt."

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/egypt-threatens-to-suspend-camp-david-accords-if-israel-pushes-into-gaza-border-town/ar-BB1i6DGf

Quote

Egypt threatens to suspend Camp David Accords if Israel pushes into Gaza border town

 

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Egypt is threatening to suspend its peace treaty with Israel if Israeli troops are sent into the densely populated Gaza border town of Rafah, and says fighting there could force the closure of the territory’s main aid supply route, two Egyptian officials and a Western diplomat said Sunday.

 

Here are some more links, they all say the same thing.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-egypt-threatens-to-suspend-key-peace-treaty_n_65c8c7d5e4b0fb721d617599

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-threatens-suspend-key-peace-treaty-israel-pushes-107136333

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-11/ty-article/egypt-threatens-to-suspend-key-peace-treaty-if-israel-pushes-into-rafah-officials-say/0000018d-97e0-d443-a19f-fff1e5c50000

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-02-11/egypt-threatens-to-suspend-key-peace-treaty-if-israel-pushes-into-gaza-border-town-officials-say

[Morch]

33 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Hamas literally translates as resistance fighters - ergo freedom fighters. They are classified as a terrorist organization, but then again so was Nelson Mandela and his organization.

 

@Brickleberry

 

You tried that one before, and was corrected. Let's do it again.

 

Hamas does not translate into anything, it's a popularized version of an acronym.

The official name translation from Arabic would be Islamic Resistance Movement.

I get it that you don't want to mention the Islamic part, but that's no reason to make up things.

 

As for them being about 'freedom' - sure, because they demonstrated exactly that through their rule of the Gaza Strip.

Or not so much, eh?

 

Was Nelson Mandela into murdering kids and raping women?

 

Spin it how you like, you're siding with the worst regimes on this score. And Hamas, of course.

 

 

 

[Brickleberry]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

You tried that one before, and was corrected. Let's do it again.

 

Hamas does not translate into anything, it's a popularized version of an acronym.

The official name translation from Arabic would be Islamic Resistance Movement.

I get it that you don't want to mention the Islamic part, but that's no reason to make up things.

 

As for them being about 'freedom' - sure, because they demonstrated exactly that through their rule of the Gaza Strip.

Or not so much, eh?

 

Was Nelson Mandela into murdering kids and raping women?

 

Spin it how you like, you're siding with the worst regimes on this score. And Hamas, of course.

 

 

 

 

I'm certainly not going to side with a far right wing government that has brought their country so low, that they are now found to be plausibly committing genocide. Hamas might indeed make genocidal comments about its oppressors, but they are unable to do it. Israel is making the same disgusting comments, has the power to do it, and is actually doing it. 

 

So again, what was wrong with my statement? Resistance is what I said. Resistance from their oppressors, ergo freedom fighters.

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Actually it is not complicated or difficult at all.

 

Israel needs to leave all occupied territories and return the land that was stolen. Withdraw to its 1948 border plan.

 

Hamas, Palestinians and the Arab league have all been singing from the same page: do this, and we will have peace.

 

@Brickleberry

 

Hamas did not offer peace. Hamas's agenda (as appearing in their Charter) is about a Palestinian State replacing Israel.

The Palestinians (assuming you mean the PA) cannot deliver (see the first line) and not all members of the Arab League are on board either (never mind other players like Iran).

 

Mind, both the PA and them Arab countries took decades to come to that positions - something you gloss over again and agian.

 

It is not 'difficult' in your imagination, perhaps- but then you possibly believe the rest of the nonsense  in your post as well.

 

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

Was Nelson Mandela into murdering kids and raping women?

 

 

Chopped because I forgot to respond to this ridiculous part.

 

0 evidence of any rape at all. Zilch, nada, nothing. In fact, hostages that have been returned to Israel have spoken about how well they were treated.