Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[ozimoron]

17 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Part of Jerusalem. 

Sorry but every sovereign nation has the right to determine their capitol.

 

 

Why Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel

 

No country in the world recognises Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

 

In the 1948 war, following the UN’s recommendation to divide Palestine, Zionist forces took control of the western half of the city and declared the territory part of its state.

 

During the 1967 war, Israel captured the eastern half of Jerusalem, which was under Jordanian control at the time, and proceeded to effectively annex it by extending Israeli law, bringing it directly under its jurisdiction, in a breach of international law.

 

In response, the UN Security Council passed Resolution 478 in 1980, declaring the law “null and void”. The illegal Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem violates several principles under international law, which outlines that an occupying power  does not  have sovereignty in the territory it occupies.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2017/12/10/why-jerusalem-is-not-the-capital-of-israel

[coolcarer]

Among others

 

On December 6, 2017, the United States of America officially recognized Jerusalem as the capital city of the State of Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_recognition_of_Jerusalem_as_capital_of_Israel

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

Among others

 

On December 6, 2017, the United States of America officially recognized Jerusalem as the capital city of the State of Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_recognition_of_Jerusalem_as_capital_of_Israel

 

On December 8, U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson clarified that Trump's statement "did not indicate any final status for Jerusalem" and "was very clear that the final status, including the borders, would be left to the two parties to negotiate and decide" in reference to the recognition's impact on the Israeli–Palestinian peace process.

 

Trump's decision was rejected by the vast majority of world leaders; the United Nations Security Council held an emergency meeting on December 7, where 14 out of 15 members condemned it, but the motion was overturned by U.S. veto power.

[Neeranam]

36 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Part of Jerusalem. 

Sorry but every sovereign nation has the right to determine their capitol.

 

Do you think Palestine should also be a Sovereign nation -  if not, why?

[Hummin]

58 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

. Roughly for that a Jew is a person who had a Jewish mother but there are other ways for converts, non Jewish spouses including same sex spouses, etc.

I waited a bit to see if anyone came with the correct answer.

 

Anyone who have converted, have equal right to emigrate to Israel.

 

"The Law of Return, 1950 (hereinafter - the Law of Return), and the Citizenship Law, 1952, give a Jew - defined as anyone born of a Jewish mother or who converted, and is not a member of another religion - and his family members the right to immigrate to the State of Israel and get citizenship"

 

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/about/aboutconversion

 

 

[coolcarer]

When asked what country the Western Wall is in, State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said "We're not taking any position on the overall boundaries. We are recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."[34]

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I waited a bit to see if anyone came with the correct answer.

 

Anyone who have converted, have equal right to emigrate to Israel.

 

"The Law of Return, 1950 (hereinafter - the Law of Return), and the Citizenship Law, 1952, give a Jew - defined as anyone born of a Jewish mother or who converted, and is not a member of another religion - and his family members the right to immigrate to the State of Israel and get citizenship"

 

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/about/aboutconversion

 

 

There is an interesting wrinkle which excludes a person born a Jew who is practicing another religion.

As far as I know Jewish atheists do qualify though it would likely be more diplomatic to say non-religious or secular Jew. 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

There is an interesting wrinkle which excludes a person born a Jew who is practicing another religion.

As far as I know Jewish atheists do qualify though it would likely be more diplomatic to say non-religious or secular Jew. 

Rather discriminatory law? 

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do you think Palestine should also be a Sovereign nation -  if not, why?

With conditions such as accepting the right of Israel to exist and proper security guarantees so that it doesn't result in a neighboring state developing a strong military that will destroy Israel.

The Arabs had their chance to accept the UN partition in 1948. Instead the Arab world attacked Israel. That was before a specific Palestinian Arab idenitity developed.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Rather discriminatory law? 

Oh please.

Every country has a right to set their own immigration policies.

Don't be so bigoted against the one Jewish state.

There are many Islamic states but Jew hating bigots can't seem to ever accept the existence of one quite tiny Jewish state. Such hypocrisy.

Many countries have immigration rights based on descent, for example having an Italian grandparent for Italy, etc.

To add, it is my understanding that the right of return is not the only way to migrate to Israel. Such as desirable high skilled people similar to how Australia screens applicants.

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

With conditions such as accepting the right of Israel to exist and proper security guarantees so that it doesn't result in a neighboring state developing a strong military that will destroy Israel.

The Arabs had their chance to accept the UN partition in 1948. Instead the Arab world attacked Israel. That was before a specific Palestinian Arab idenitity developed.

Do you understand why the Arabs attacked them? 

 

 

[Jingthing]

Just now, Hummin said:

Do you understand why the Arabs attacked them? 

 

 

I understand they made a mistake. Of course they could have won, they were expected to win, and then all the Jew hating bigots would be happy because there never would have been an Israel. 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Oh please.

Every country has a right to set their own immigration policies.

Don't be so bigoted against the one Jewish state.

Many countries have immigration rights based on descent, for example having an Italian grandparent for Italy, etc.

 

But this is purely dependent on religion, no other country does this - non-Jewish Palestinians, including descendants of Palestinians who were living in the territory that became Israel prior to 1948, do not have an automatic right to citizenship under the Law of Return.

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I waited a bit to see if anyone came with the correct answer.

 

Anyone who have converted, have equal right to emigrate to Israel.

 

"The Law of Return, 1950 (hereinafter - the Law of Return), and the Citizenship Law, 1952, give a Jew - defined as anyone born of a Jewish mother or who converted, and is not a member of another religion - and his family members the right to immigrate to the State of Israel and get citizenship"

 

https://www.gov.il/en/departments/about/aboutconversion

 

 

This discriminatory policy grants automatic citizenship and preferential treatment to Jews from around the world, while denying the same rights to Palestinians who were born in Israel or forcibly displaced during the creation of the state. This means that a Palestinian non-Jew born in Israel faces significant barriers to citizenship and equal rights, despite being a native to the land, while a Jew born in the United States or any other country is granted immediate citizenship upon arrival in Israel. This obviously  hinders any peace process or reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians. 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

 

But this is purely dependent on religion, no other country does this - non-Jewish Palestinians, including descendants of Palestinians who were living in the territory that became Israel prior to 1948, do not have an automatic right to citizenship under the Law of Return.

It is NOT based on religion. It is based on being a Jew. 

Jewish mother. The Jewish mother could have been an atheist.

Also as I said non Jewish spouses including gay ones.

Try to find that in the Islamic world. 

If Israel granted right of return to Palestinian Arabs which has been a demand from Palestinians, Israel would no longer exist. It's crystal clear that's what you and other obsessive Israel demonizers want. So nice try, no cigar. 

[Hummin]

Just now, Jingthing said:

It is NOT based on religion. It is based on being a Jew. 

If Israel granted right of return to Palestinian Arabs which has been a demand from Palestinians, Israel would no longer exist. So nice try, no cigar. 

And therefor state of Israel should never existed in the first place, because the establishing state of Israel, automatically excluded people who lived there, and came from the area.

 

The only way Israel could exist, was because of massive deportation of people who had lived there for centuries and longer.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

And therefor state of Israel should never existed in the first place, because the establishing state of Israel, automatically excluded people who lived there, and came from the area.

 

The only way Israel could exist, was because of massive deportation of people who had lived there for centuries and longer.

No it didn't!

The Arabs that stayed became part of the 20 percent Arab Israeli citizens today.

Israel was never seeking 100 percent Jews. You're thinking of the Arabs that want Jew free states. 

But Israel can't continue to exist without a MAJORITY Jewish demographic.

If that offends you, so be it. That's the way it is. Israel won't commit national suicide to people to please the likes of you.

 

[Hummin]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I understand they made a mistake. Of course they could have won, they were expected to win, and then all the Jew hating bigots would be happy because there never would have been an Israel. 

Do you understand, it could had been the Palestinians who got the right of the land now called Israel? 

 

A tragic coincidence made it possible for the Jews to establish Israel, and here we are. 

 

 

[Jingthing]

Just now, Hummin said:

Do you understand, it could had been the Palestinians who got the right of the land now called Israel? 

 

A tragic coincidence made it possible for the Jews to establish Israel, and here we are. 

 

 

The Arabs HAD a state based on the UN charter.

You have the right to your opinion that Israel should never have been allowed to exist.

But too late. It does and it isn't going anywhere.

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

No it didn't!

The Arabs that stayed became part of the 20 percent Arab Israeli citizens today.

Israel was never seeking 100 percent Jews. You're thinking of the Arabs that want Jew free states. 

But Israel can't continue to exist without a MAJORITY Jewish demographic.

If that offends you, so be it. That's the way it is. Israel won't commit national suicide to people to please the likes of you.

 

You have to understand, Im not the one to please! I see and reasoning whats happening. It is not personal for me, and once more, no matter which ethnic groups, religion or politics, I recognize suffering and criminal acts.

 

Especially when kids is involved. The kids form our future, and kids and grandchildren of palestinians is a product of the generations who constantly have being suppressed. 

 

Should not be suprised really how it all turned out.

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Hummin said:

And therefor state of Israel should never existed in the first place, because the establishing state of Israel, automatically excluded people who lived there, and came from the area.

 

The only way Israel could exist, was because of massive deportation of people who had lived there for centuries and longer.

You conveniently forget to mention the large waves of Arabs from all over the Arab world that migrated to the British Mandate to take advantage of the economic opportunities related to Zionist pioneers. Those Arabs were certainly not "Palestinians" and were certainly not there for centuries. I'm hearing from you that don't accept that Jews are indigenous to Israel, but too bad for your narrative, they most definitely are.

[Jingthing]

Just now, Hummin said:

You have to understand, Im not the one to please! I see and reasoning whats happening. It is not personal for me, and once more, no matter which ethnic groups, religion or politics, I recognize suffering and criminal acts.

 

Especially when kids is involved. The kids form our future, and kids and grandchildren of palestinians is a product of the generations who constantly have being suppressed. 

 

Should not be suprised really how it all turned out.

The trouble with your narrative is that it's simple minded.

It blames ONE side when actually the conflict is incredibly complex. 

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think you are allowed to say that 🙂

It is a conclusion without colors. The other way around would had been wrong to.

 

If the Arab states had more power after the ww2 supporting the Palestinias, it would had been the scenario where there where no more jews left. 

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The trouble with your narrative is that it's simple minded.

It blames ONE side when actually the conflict is incredibly complex. 

So Im simple minded now? 

 

At least we both agree on the complexity and for sure one way or the other there will be suffering. 

 

The peomised land, truly makes their people suffer. Meaning all people and religions. 

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, Hummin said:

It is a conclusion without colors. The other way around would had been wrong to.

 

If the Arab states had more power after the ww2 supporting the Palestinias, it would had been the scenario where there where no more jews left. 

The Arab world wasn't supporting Palestinians because Palestinian identity didn't exist back then. They were opposing the creation of a Jewish state in a small part of the land that was the British Mandate, no matter how tiny.

Keep in the mind what the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem did. He exiled to Berlin and got a promise from Adolph Hitler to exterminate all the Jews in the Middle East after he was done with Jews in Europe.

Painting the Arabs as innocents in this sitation is a total crock!

[WDSmart]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

They?

It's not current Israeli government policy.

"They," the [censored], who is in charge of the Israeli government right now.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

So Im simple minded now? 

 

At least we both agree on the complexity and for sure one way or the other there will be suffering. 

 

The peomised land, truly makes their people suffer. Meaning all people and religions. 

I agree it's a big mess and I'm not one to suggest that I have the solutions to fix it.

[Jingthing]

Just now, WDSmart said:

"They," the [censored], who is in charge of the Israeli government right now.

I can't read your mind. 

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The Arab world wasn't supporting Palestinians because Palestinian identity didn't exist back then. They were opposing the creation of a Jewish state in the land that was the British Mandate, no matter how tiny.

Keep in the mind what the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem did. He exiled to Berlin and got a promise from Adolph Hitler to exterminate all the Jews in the Middle East after he was done with Jews in Europe.

Painting the Arabs as innocents in this sitation is a total crock!

If you paid attention, I never painting anyone in that area innocent, except women and children. Civilians who suffering, and also to mention, being abused and used by and for world politics. 

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

If you paid attention, I never painting anyone in that area innocent, except women and children. Civilians who suffering, and also to mention, being abused and used by and for world politics. 

It's not necessarily about you just because I responded to your post.

I agree totally of course that civilian suffering especially children is horrible.