Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

 

I've wondered about this.You are right about the number but doesn't it have to be registered at the RD before it can be used? Or is it the case when one is filing the tax return for the first time one just bungs in the number and the system just deals with it as a TIN? I just don't know.

 

If you want to file online, then your pink ID number must first be registered in the system.  Our district office was unable to do this, office manager had to contact provincial tax office in Korat.

 

Otherwise, trying to log in to file tax or to set up an online account with TRD e-file will result in an error message.  Maybe paper returns filed in person would be accepted.

[Mike Teavee]

25 minutes ago, stat said:

Correct but then you only pay on your UK income and cap gains on UK property and you can not use the allowances to my understanding. So UK tax rules should only bother those that are still tax resident in the UK. When I moved to TH the german IRS did not bother me at all as I made sure I had no German income.

In the UK you can still use your £12,570 Personal Allowance although in some cases it might be better for you to forgo this as it can reduce your overall tax bill (I don't understand it enough to get into it & most people, including myself, still use their UK personal allowance). 

 

But you cannot use things like your annual £20,000 ISA allowance.   You can keep anything that you have in an ISA & still benefit from no tax on interest but you cannot add anything more to it whilst being non-UK Tax resident. 

 

UK CGT for Expats is limited to Property & even then, if you're selling your primary property then there is no CGT to pay (E.g. for my 1st 3 years of being non-UK resident for Tax because I was working overseas & kept my house empty the UK still considered it my Primary property, it was only when I started to rent it out that it stopped being my "Primary Property" & so I have to pay CGT when it comes to selling it). 

 

 

Edited July 23 by Mike Teavee

[stat]

5 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

In the UK you can still use your £12,570 Personal Allowance although in some cases it might be better for you to forgo this as it can reduce your overall tax bill (I don't understand it enough to get into it & most people, including myself, still use their UK personal allowance). 

 

But you cannot use things like your annual £20,000 ISA allowance.   You can keep anything that you have in an ISA & still benefit from no tax on interest but you cannot add anything more to it whilst being non-UK Tax resident. 

 

Thanks! Good for the UK guys then, in GER you lose all your allowances + you are supposed to detail your ww income and pay 40% plus on your german income when your ww income is over 60k EUR even if you only earn 5K eur in GER.

Edited July 23 by stat

[Mike Teavee]

19 minutes ago, stat said:

Thanks! Good for the UK guys then, in GER you lose all your allowances + you are supposed to detail your ww income and pay 40% plus on your german income when your ww income is over 60k EUR even if you only earn 5K eur in GER.

Ouch, but didn’t you (or somebody else) post that a German can choose to be taxed in Thailand instead of Germany on their pension which sounds like a good deal. 
 

UK Pensions are taxed in the UK, no choice. 
 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, UKresonant said:

But if they do move to ww basis it would be a bit of a negative.

Of course it would, however it is better to deal with the devil we know before fantasising about the Balrog that doesn’t exist yet.

[stat]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Ouch, but didn’t you (or somebody else) post that a German can choose to be taxed in Thailand instead of Germany on their pension which sounds like a good deal. 
 

UK Pensions are taxed in the UK, no choice. 
 

 

German DTA with TH states that TH has the sole right to tax but TH so far did not tax any german government pension, so tax "free". Should still work as long as you are able to not transmit your pension and live off other savings. Germany taxes some german company pensions however. Anyway pensions in Germany have been built by investment of already taxed money until 2015 or thereabout.

Edited July 23 by stat

[Guavaman]

11 hours ago, jwest10 said:

I have looked via Google the forms PND 90 and only in 2006 can I find the subject Personal Income Tax and only the 60k is listed.
On the form PND 91 the subject Personal Income Tax from Employment Income and the 120K single and 220K Joint is listed.

Yes at the moment in Thai we are still entitled to all the allowances and exempt ones like the first 150K zero tax and yes we can claim this as an allowance and all the ones listed above by Adam and agreed by Mike Lister.

Dear jwest10:

 

It is imperative to obtain an understanding of the basic concepts of the Thai Tax Code and its' implementation in filing a tax return.  You are loosely using terms related to exemptions, deductions, and allowances, that are specific technical terms in the Thai Tax Code.

 

I suggest that you re-read the Guide:

 

TAX EXEMPTIONS DEDUCTIONS & ALLOWANCES (TEDA)

 76) The Thai tax system contains a series of Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances (TEDA) that will help you reduce your tax bill and they are very generous. It is easily possible for the average expat foreign retiree to reduce their taxable income by 500,000 baht or more each year. For example, a retiree aged 65 years of age, married and living here full  time, supporting a Thai wife and receiving only pension income, is allowed the following TEDA, identified by the corresponding RD code: 

 a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR) 

 

77) Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand, along with a range of other things. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found in the links below:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below.

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Here is an example of a tax filing for 500,000 remitted assessable income for a single filer over age 65 with a wife and claiming the maximum allowance of 25,000 Baht for health insurance.

premium with a Thai company. I hope that this example might be helpful. 

 

You really need to get clear on the basic concepts/terms in the Thai Tax Code before you try to communicate with TRD officials to overcome the confusion in your own mind and in their minds.

 

Exemptions, deductions, and allowances are like apples, mangos, and durians -- they are all fruits, but very different.

 

[AdamWest1974]

GuavaMan,

 

You wrote -  "...I hope that this example might be helpful."

 

It certainly is very helpful.

 

In fact it is pretty much the same as I would fill mine in as the profile of the filer and the amounts are very much like mine.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[jwest10]

12 hours ago, Guavaman said:

Dear jwest10:

 

It is imperative to obtain an understanding of the basic concepts of the Thai Tax Code and its' implementation in filing a tax return.  You are loosely using terms related to exemptions, deductions, and allowances, that are specific technical terms in the Thai Tax Code.

 

I suggest that you re-read the Guide:

 

TAX EXEMPTIONS DEDUCTIONS & ALLOWANCES (TEDA)

 76) The Thai tax system contains a series of Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances (TEDA) that will help you reduce your tax bill and they are very generous. It is easily possible for the average expat foreign retiree to reduce their taxable income by 500,000 baht or more each year. For example, a retiree aged 65 years of age, married and living here full  time, supporting a Thai wife and receiving only pension income, is allowed the following TEDA, identified by the corresponding RD code: 

 a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR) 

 

77) Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand, along with a range of other things. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found in the links below:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below.

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Here is an example of a tax filing for 500,000 remitted assessable income for a single filer over age 65 with a wife and claiming the maximum allowance of 25,000 Baht for health insurance.

premium with a Thai company. I hope that this example might be helpful. 

 

You really need to get clear on the basic concepts/terms in the Thai Tax Code before you try to communicate with TRD officials to overcome the confusion in your own mind and in their minds.

 

Exemptions, deductions, and allowances are like apples, mangos, and durians -- they are all fruits, but very different.

 

Thanks indeed and yes still looking at the tax form you kindly attached and yes aware of all the allowances and tax exemptions and total od 560K  but well above my income and do not work Thailand.

 

[jwest10]

4 hours ago, AdamWest1974 said:

GuavaMan,

 

You wrote -  "...I hope that this example might be helpful."

 

It certainly is very helpful.

 

In fact it is pretty much the same as I would fill mine in as the profile of the filer and the amounts are very much like mine.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

The forms can not find on the system as yet unless I am missing a link but many thanks indeed.
The forms you mentioned above I can not seem to be able to download but forms for 2024 not yet available and assume when they are can get them from the local Revenue Tax Office?
Thanks, GuavaMan and Adam

Edited July 24 by jwest10

[jwest10]

12 hours ago, Guavaman said:

Dear jwest10:

 

It is imperative to obtain an understanding of the basic concepts of the Thai Tax Code and its' implementation in filing a tax return.  You are loosely using terms related to exemptions, deductions, and allowances, that are specific technical terms in the Thai Tax Code.

 

I suggest that you re-read the Guide:

 

TAX EXEMPTIONS DEDUCTIONS & ALLOWANCES (TEDA)

 76) The Thai tax system contains a series of Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances (TEDA) that will help you reduce your tax bill and they are very generous. It is easily possible for the average expat foreign retiree to reduce their taxable income by 500,000 baht or more each year. For example, a retiree aged 65 years of age, married and living here full  time, supporting a Thai wife and receiving only pension income, is allowed the following TEDA, identified by the corresponding RD code: 

 a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR) 

 

77) Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand, along with a range of other things. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found in the links below:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below.

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Here is an example of a tax filing for 500,000 remitted assessable income for a single filer over age 65 with a wife and claiming the maximum allowance of 25,000 Baht for health insurance.

premium with a Thai company. I hope that this example might be helpful. 

 

You really need to get clear on the basic concepts/terms in the Thai Tax Code before you try to communicate with TRD officials to overcome the confusion in your own mind and in their minds.

 

Exemptions, deductions, and allowances are like apples, mangos, and durians -- they are all fruits, but very different.

 

Yes trying to look these forms up and yes, I can see the blank one you so kindly sent and yes it is entitled Personal Income Tax Return 91 - Income from Employment under section 40 (1) of the Revenue Code.
to Thailand I realise the first line included pensions and all income whether earned in the UK and sent to Thailand is included in that box, Correct?
The rest is straightforward forward but I can not download these forms or copy them but have been told by NY local Revenue Office that these forms arein the process of being updated and November/ December will be printed.
One wonders if they will be in the same forms you kindly attached.

Thank you so much  Guavaman and Adam and very useful and helpful but await until these new forms come out?

 

[jwest10]

Hi  Mike Lister

Yes think I am getting confused  (yes easily done lol)
I saw old Income Tax forms 91 kindly attached by Guavaman yesterday and have been calculating these allowances and exemptions  560k in my estimated figures and my wife does not work ie any employment and I can claim the 60K for her if when these new forms do arise and if we do need to file a tax form.
This 150k first assessable income ie tax-free I have included in the 560K as the most I can claim for is this correct, please?
Thanks and getting confused
One final query what exchange rates are they going to use?
New forms around November/December from the local Revenue Office and once again could not clarify all the other queries and think this is going to be getting very complicated for them as well !!!
 

Edited July 24 by jwest10

[beammeup]

16 hours ago, Guavaman said:

Dear jwest10:

 

It is imperative to obtain an understanding of the basic concepts of the Thai Tax Code and its' implementation in filing a tax return.  You are loosely using terms related to exemptions, deductions, and allowances, that are specific technical terms in the Thai Tax Code.

 

I suggest that you re-read the Guide:

 

TAX EXEMPTIONS DEDUCTIONS & ALLOWANCES (TEDA)

 76) The Thai tax system contains a series of Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances (TEDA) that will help you reduce your tax bill and they are very generous. It is easily possible for the average expat foreign retiree to reduce their taxable income by 500,000 baht or more each year. For example, a retiree aged 65 years of age, married and living here full  time, supporting a Thai wife and receiving only pension income, is allowed the following TEDA, identified by the corresponding RD code: 

 a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR) 

 

77) Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand, along with a range of other things. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found in the links below:

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below.

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Here is an example of a tax filing for 500,000 remitted assessable income for a single filer over age 65 with a wife and claiming the maximum allowance of 25,000 Baht for health insurance.

premium with a Thai company. I hope that this example might be helpful. 

 

You really need to get clear on the basic concepts/terms in the Thai Tax Code before you try to communicate with TRD officials to overcome the confusion in your own mind and in their minds.

 

Exemptions, deductions, and allowances are like apples, mangos, and durians -- they are all fruits, but very different.

 

So if you have greater than 200000, you will be able to deduct (from A4above) - expenses 100000? Do you need to prove these expenses?

[4myr]

Any feedback on my current tax filing strategy at the moment is welcome.

About how I see it at the moment:

- still 5-6 months till end 2024, and no real new and practical direction from Thai RD or from this forum gained
- my income are director fees, no pension yet, and capital gains on property in home country. According to my tax treaty, no tax credits allowed for these income, but tax exemptions yes. This is confirmed by Dutch tax consultants.
- in April I gauged my local RD office incl the lawyer at that office. They wrongly advice me to apply tax credits for my income and that I cannot apply tax exemption according to my Dutch tax treaty

- I wrote an email to the lawyers dept of Thai RD in Bangkok to ask for clarifications, no answer.
- Dutch RD will not deliver a tax certificate, as Thai RD asked in their English online leaflet.  It is not part of their service. Around Q3 2025 a final tax assessment report will be provided on tax year 2024.

- i asked 4 tax consultants on tax filing of tax exempted income. One gave a clear yes that they can file tax for me without paying tax. A second one needs to talk to RD officer, before it can commit. Both hover around 30k fee.

 

My current tax filing strategy. This is a moving target as new info comes:

 

- I'll stay tax resident and not escape the 180 day rule, as paying tax consultant is cheaper and more convenient. PS. capital gains on property is not yet taxed in my home country
- the first few years I'll file tax the easy stuff by myself: pre-2024 savings and income. Advantage is I have pre-2024 records at hand, due to the lag of reporting by Dutch RD
- if ww income is not yet introduced, I'll hire a tax consultant to file tax wrt to tax exempted income. The more remitted, the cheaper the fee per baht remitted

 

[sometimewoodworker]

.

Edited July 24 by sometimewoodworker

[Raindancer]

2 hours ago, beammeup said:

So if you have greater than 200000, you will be able to deduct (from A4above) - expenses 100000? Do you need to prove these expenses?

What expenses?  I cannot find anything under this as a deduction.   The table that Mike Lister provided comes to 560000 in my case.  But I don't see " expenses" as a deductible.

[redwood1]

3 hours ago, 4myr said:

Any feedback on my current tax filing strategy at the moment is welcome.

About how I see it at the moment:

- still 5-6 months till end 2024, and no real new and practical direction from Thai RD or from this forum gained
- my income are director fees, no pension yet, and capital gains on property in home country. According to my tax treaty, no tax credits allowed for these income, but tax exemptions yes. This is confirmed by Dutch tax consultants.
- in April I gauged my local RD office incl the lawyer at that office. They wrongly advice me to apply tax credits for my income and that I cannot apply tax exemption according to my Dutch tax treaty

- I wrote an email to the lawyers dept of Thai RD in Bangkok to ask for clarifications, no answer.
- Dutch RD will not deliver a tax certificate, as Thai RD asked in their English online leaflet.  It is not part of their service. Around Q3 2025 a final tax assessment report will be provided on tax year 2024.

- i asked 4 tax consultants on tax filing of tax exempted income. One gave a clear yes that they can file tax for me without paying tax. A second one needs to talk to RD officer, before it can commit. Both hover around 30k fee.

 

My current tax filing strategy. This is a moving target as new info comes:

 

- I'll stay tax resident and not escape the 180 day rule, as paying tax consultant is cheaper and more convenient. PS. capital gains on property is not yet taxed in my home country
- the first few years I'll file tax the easy stuff by myself: pre-2024 savings and income. Advantage is I have pre-2024 records at hand, due to the lag of reporting by Dutch RD
- if ww income is not yet introduced, I'll hire a tax consultant to file tax wrt to tax exempted income. The more remitted, the cheaper the fee per baht remitted

 

 

So whats 4myrs goal in this post?

 

His goal is to pay ZERO tax....

 

And what is every single poster in this threads goal?

 

Also to pay ZERO tax.....lol

 

I would say this tax is a complete failure before they have collected so much as a single non-baht of all this future ZERO tax....

 

In truth it will cost a fortune to collect all this ZERO tax... 

Edited July 24 by redwood1

[Guavaman]

7 hours ago, jwest10 said:

The forms can not find on the system as yet unless I am missing a link but many thanks indeed.

Here is the link to the forms for 2023 on the RD site, including the guides in English.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

[Raindancer]

5 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Here is the link to the forms for 2023 on the RD site, including the guides in English.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/65308.html

Thanks.  I already have that,  and again, I have read it all through, but no classification of expenses or what they entail.

[sometimewoodworker]

25 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

In truth it will cost a fortune to collect all this ZERO tax...

Since, so far, every tax official has said that they do not want returns filed where there is either no tax due or to refund I totally fail to see where the purported extra cost comes from. Do please explain?

[Guavaman]

10 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

no classification of expenses or what they entail.

These are standard deduction amounts with no need to provide details.

Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.90) For taxpayers who received incomes not only from employment

No. 1 item 5.

Enter allowable expense equal to 50% of the amount stated in item 4. but not exceeding 100,000 baht. If you and your spouse both have income and you are filing jointly, you and your spouse can each deduct expense as stated above. Thus, the maximum allowable expense is 200,000 baht in this case. 

 

See https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

[Raindancer]

6 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

These are standard deduction amounts with no need to provide details.

Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.90) For taxpayers who received incomes not only from employment

No. 1 item 5.

Enter allowable expense equal to 50% of the amount stated in item 4. but not exceeding 100,000 baht. If you and your spouse both have income and you are filing jointly, you and your spouse can each deduct expense as stated above. Thus, the maximum allowable expense is 200,000 baht in this case. 

 

See https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Thank you for clarifying that and the link.

 

But as my wife and I are not earning an income, this doesn't apply in my case, as far as I can see.

 

Notwithstanding that, I guess I will just wait and see how all this TRD proposal takes effect, if at all.

 

 

[bkk6060]

Many talking about leaving before 180 and listing off several countries they will go to when they leave.  I hope those are figuring the cost of airfare, hotels/rooms, transportation, etc.  I did this and came to the conclusion it would be less expensive to stay here and just pay the tax. And, places like Cambodia and Phillipines are a big downgrade in lifestyle in my opinion. Hopefully not, but I am happy here paying some menial tax in my situation is no big deal.

Edited July 24 by bkk6060

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, bkk6060 said:

Many talking about leaving before 180 and listing off several countries they will go to when they leave.  I hope those are figuring the cost of airfare, hotels, transportation, etc.  I did this and came to the conclusion it would be less expensive to stay here and just pay the tax.  Hopefully not, but I am happy here paying some menial tax in my situation is no big deal.

Agreed.  Why not just wait and see how this all pans out.

 

I have no tax liability and even if I did, I would wait out until everything is officially announced and promulgated. 

 

Then and only then, would I consider my options.  

 

But each to their own.

[sometimewoodworker]

35 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

But as my wife and I are not earning an income

Are you sure? Pensions are considered income are they not? 
Thus if you have assessable income you have an allowance for expenses do you not?

[Raindancer]

7 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Are you sure? Pensions are considered income are they not? 
Thus if you have assessable income you have an allowance for expenses do you not?

Not as far as I can see.  My assessable allowances are:

 

Me:   60k

Wife: 60k

Over 65:  190k

50% of pension 100k

Ist 150k earnings before any tax is paid.

Plus wife's medical insurance. 

 

Therefore, total allowances 560k, plus wife's health cover payments.

 

So, I don't see where I can apply " expenses" as another deductible.

 

Total

Edited July 24 by Raindancer

[Guavaman]

5 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

My assessable allowances are:

We need to use the TRD terms to avoid confusion.

Me:   60k = personal allowance

Wife: 60k = personal allowance

Over 65:  190k = income exemption

50% of pension 100k = deduction of expenses

Ist 150k earnings before any tax is paid. = income taxed at 0%

Plus wife's medical insurance. = allowance

[Raindancer]

1 minute ago, Guavaman said:

We need to use the TRD terms to avoid confusion.

Me:   60k = personal allowance

Wife: 60k = personal allowance

Over 65:  190k = income exemption

50% of pension 100k = deduction of expenses

Ist 150k earnings before any tax is paid. = income taxed at 0%

Plus wife's medical insurance. = allowance

Really?   I cannot see any great differences between my list and yours apart from different definitions, which in truth are semantics.

 

 

[Guavaman]

27 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

Really?   I cannot see any great differences between my list and yours apart from different definitions, which in truth are semantics.

The TRD terms define how and where to enter the numbers into the tax form. For example, the 190,000 income exemption is subtracted from pension income before the calculation of the amount of expenses deducted @50% up to 100,000.

 

If we use our own terms, it becomes a cause of confusion in communications, as we have seen in these threads. 

[Raindancer]

15 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

The TRD terms define how and where to enter the numbers into the tax form. For example, the 190,000 income exemption is subtracted from pension income before the calculation of the amount of expenses deducted @50% up to 100,000.

 

If we use our own terms, it becomes a cause of confusion in communications, as we have seen in these threads. 

I was addressing someone else.  And I didn't mention income tax forms,  nor where to enter any figures. 

 

I knew exactly what I meant, as I'm sure you did. And I'm sure others did as well.

 

Even using your statement of the 190k is deducted from pension income, still makes no difference to the max amount I can use as a deductible.

 

 

 

So let's just leave this and move on.

 

 

 

Edited July 24 by Raindancer
Addition