Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[jwest10]

On 7/6/2024 at 8:37 PM, Mike Lister said:

The threat of back audits is a power tool, something to wield if anyone gets too stroppy or uncooperative, I don't see it being used widely. But you have to ask yourself, would you want to be in that situation where, just because you didn't file a simple return, you opened yourself up to that much scrutiny. Personally, I think it's a serious deterrent.

Again, Mike and for the 5th time in July/Aug I went around to our local Revenue office and they simply do not know but must do in the fact stating forms going to be updated in Nov/Dec and told the Officer and might just go over the thresholds and allowances and stated you do not need to file a tax form and in any case, there were none around.
Also, a really good Thai friend has been looking into it and admits it is very complicated but he fills in a form as self-employed, I think.

As Mike suggested and yes many others stated we await and we might have one or two different Governments come 1st Jan 2025 and policies might change.
So I have been told 5 times by the Revenue that it appears I do not need to file.

Just in passing got a notification from the HM Inspector of  Taxes stating I have paid too much tax in the year ended 5th April 2024 but  any other suggestions, apart from we wait and see but we have calculated what might be but who knows and too many so-called experts.


 

[mommysboy]

Maybe, it will just amount to a declaration on your yearly visa application.  Just tick 'no' and the matter is over. Not worth the worry. In any case we're talking about a few thousand baht in the worst case scenario- or perhaps there are a lot of millionaires on this forum.

[Puccini]

31 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Maybe, it will just amount to a declaration on your yearly visa application.  Just tick 'no' and the matter is over...

 

I don't think so. Also not for the application for extension of stay.

[Presnock]

On 7/11/2024 at 8:21 AM, Fat Bob said:

So apparently with the new destination thailand visa foreign income is exempt from tax. It‘s starting to make a lot of sense on how it works. I feel totally jypped i haven’t even moved and gotten my elite visa stamp yet. 😂 I had a feeling there‘s always a way with Thailand. Might even get that visa to not worry about tax and just use the elite for the airport rides and travel more to max them out so I feel less taken advantage of. It‘s almost certain that there’s not gonna be any sales of the privilege visas and I really hope they don‘t close down. Still want my option to stay for 20 yrs if I like it there.

Where is this stated by the Min of Foreign affairs or the revenue dept?  

[Presnock]

I have noted several people mentioning "so apparently with the new DTV, foreign income is exempt from tax" and I am wondering where they found that info.  I googled thai tax and the DTV and several Tax Advisors here indicate provide the definition of a Thai Tax resident and that those meeting that criteria will be required to get a tax id number and file for taxes if they meet the revenue dept criteria for remitted income.  There also were some saying some missions were requiring the DTV applicants to get a Thai Tax ID too.  Just wondering though I am not affected by this but I get questions from other people and wouldn't want to provide incorrect information especially on this tax issue.

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Maybe, it will just amount to a declaration on your yearly visa application.  Just tick 'no' and the matter is over. Not worth the worry. In any case we're talking about a few thousand baht in the worst case scenario- or perhaps there are a lot of millionaires on this forum.

Could be right.  If one is so lucky to transfer 35,000 b a month from a UK frozen pension they will probably owe nothing.

[jwest10]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

Could be right.  If one is so lucky to transfer 35,000 b a month from a UK frozen pension they will probably owe nothing.

 

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

Could be right.  If one is so lucky to transfer 35,000 b a month from a UK frozen pension they will probably owe nothing.

 

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

Could be right.  If one is so lucky to transfer 35,000 b a month from a UK frozen pension they will probably owe nothing.

35K frozen state pension that is very rich indeed and wow how unless you just got it with the 2 huge increases  but not for the vast majority of us,

[LOG54]

Hello

Went this morning to Banglamung Revenue department to ask for a tax ID..

Asked me if I am working here..No..

Asked if I brought or will bring money to Thailand in 2024.. No (kept money of my condo sale here)

Answer was.. you cannot get a tax ID and you don't have to file a tax declaration..

My Thai tax adviser (specialist) told me I had to get a number + have to file a declaration before April 2025 stating I didn't enter money in 2024.. no tax to pay but in this declaration would have to list all my abroad revenues (in this case they will have all info to tax next year on full abroad incomes)

Has anyone tried to get a tax number and got another information?

Thank you

Have a good day

[ukrules]

5 hours ago, LOG54 said:

no tax to pay but in this declaration would have to list all my abroad revenues (in this case they will have all info to tax next year on full abroad incomes)

 

That sounds like nonsense to me - don't you only list what you remit on the tax return right now.

I would seek clarification from another tax professional as to why they think non remitted income has anything at all to do with the Thai RD in a year before it's remitted.

 

If they changed it to global taxation then they're going to want a full list but right now that's not how it works.
 

[chiang mai]

6 hours ago, LOG54 said:

Hello

Went this morning to Banglamung Revenue department to ask for a tax ID..

Asked me if I am working here..No..

Asked if I brought or will bring money to Thailand in 2024.. No (kept money of my condo sale here)

Answer was.. you cannot get a tax ID and you don't have to file a tax declaration..

My Thai tax adviser (specialist) told me I had to get a number + have to file a declaration before April 2025 stating I didn't enter money in 2024.. no tax to pay but in this declaration would have to list all my abroad revenues (in this case they will have all info to tax next year on full abroad incomes)

Has anyone tried to get a tax number and got another information?

Thank you

Have a good day

That's complete nonsense, get a new tax advisor.

[LOG54]

Thank you..

Have a good day

[redwood1]

22 hours ago, LOG54 said:

Hello

Went this morning to Banglamung Revenue department to ask for a tax ID..

Asked me if I am working here..No..

Asked if I brought or will bring money to Thailand in 2024.. No (kept money of my condo sale here)

Answer was.. you cannot get a tax ID and you don't have to file a tax declaration..

My Thai tax adviser (specialist) told me I had to get a number + have to file a declaration before April 2025 stating I didn't enter money in 2024.. no tax to pay but in this declaration would have to list all my abroad revenues (in this case they will have all info to tax next year on full abroad incomes)

Has anyone tried to get a tax number and got another information?

Thank you

Have a good day

 

A perfect example of a farang who is desperate to pay taxes and will not take no for a answer......Maybe camp out on the tax office door step or take them to court to force them to let you pay taxes......Strange days indeed....

[cjinchiangrai]

24 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

A perfect example of a farang who is desperate to pay taxes and will not take no for a answer......Maybe camp out on the tax office door step or take them to court to force them to let you pay taxes......Strange days indeed....

Sounds to me like someone that wants to follow the law and does not want to be blindsided by incorrect information. I worry about this too.

 

There is nothing wrong with the tax concept but the rollout has been rather haphazard. Perhaps a notice of the rules and where to go for information would help.

[LOG54]

37 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Sounds to me like someone that wants to follow the law and does not want to be blindsided by incorrect information. I worry about this too.

 

There is nothing wrong with the tax concept but the rollout has been rather haphazard. Perhaps a notice of the rules and where to go for information would help.

Thank you.. Exactly..I don't wish to pay more taxes than I already pay.. and ready to go if Thailand pursues next year on "worldwide income tax"..

I also wish to follow the law and avoid penalties etc.. by lack of information 

I know now that I have one more year without having to worry and will wait and see what they decide for 2025 incomes.

Surprising how on AN some people can t avoid nasty cynical comments..

Have a great day

[Lorry]

27 minutes ago, LOG54 said:

Thank you.. Exactly..I don't wish to pay more taxes than I already pay.. and ready to go if Thailand pursues next year on "worldwide income tax"..

I also wish to follow the law and avoid penalties etc.. by lack of information 

I know now that I have one more year without having to worry and will wait and see what they decide for 2025 incomes.

Surprising how on AN some people can t avoid nasty cynical comments..

Have a great day

I understand your worries.

But there is nothing cynical about calling your tax advisors statements nonsense.  If you read the revenue code (it's not as difficult to read as our home countries' revenue codes), or the Q&As from the Revenue Department (posted several times,  but admittedly, buried deep in the tax threads), or the pinned tax guide, or the tax threads,  you would see: the only one who is cynical here is your tax advisor who takes you for a ride.

[chiang mai]

44 minutes ago, LOG54 said:

Thank you.. Exactly..I don't wish to pay more taxes than I already pay.. and ready to go if Thailand pursues next year on "worldwide income tax"..

I also wish to follow the law and avoid penalties etc.. by lack of information 

I know now that I have one more year without having to worry and will wait and see what they decide for 2025 incomes.

Surprising how on AN some people can t avoid nasty cynical comments..

Have a great day

The following is not complete but is fairly accurate in as far as it goes, you may wish to skim through the first few pages. I don't know if your tax advisor is confused about the worldwide tax laws that the TRD has said they would like to impose in future years or whether he's just inept. Either way, I can see no good reason to remain connected to him.

 

 

[LOG54]

15 hours ago, Lorry said:

I understand your worries.

But there is nothing cynical about calling your tax advisors statements nonsense.  If you read the revenue code (it's not as difficult to read as our home countries' revenue codes), or the Q&As from the Revenue Department (posted several times,  but admittedly, buried deep in the tax threads), or the pinned tax guide, or the tax threads,  you would see: the only one who is cynical here is your tax advisor who takes you for a ride.

I understand totally your comments and thanks for that.. I was pointing out redwood1 not you.. Should have quoted..Sorry

Have a good day

[LOG54]

14 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The following is not complete but is fairly accurate in as far as it goes, you may wish to skim through the first few pages. I don't know if your tax advisor is confused about the worldwide tax laws that the TRD has said they would like to impose in future years or whether he's just inept. Either way, I can see no good reason to remain connected to him.

 

 

Thanks a lot..I have taken this into account already in case the confirm their 2025 project.

Went to meet my tax advisor yesterday and apparently they have regular meetings in Bgk with executives of the Revenue department.. in the last meeting last week they said that finally for 2024, they changed the procedure and people who don t enter money don't have to file any declaration, neither get a tax ID and won't pay anything.. so, now I will quietly wait till they clear year 2025 decision.

 

Have a good day and thanks again

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, LOG54 said:

Thanks a lot..I have taken this into account already in case the confirm their 2025 project.

Went to meet my tax advisor yesterday and apparently they have regular meetings in Bgk with executives of the Revenue department.. in the last meeting last week they said that finally for 2024, they changed the procedure and people who don t enter money don't have to file any declaration, neither get a tax ID and won't pay anything.. so, now I will quietly wait till they clear year 2025 decision.

 

Have a good day and thanks again

That's good, but you should understand that those always were the rules. Only people who have assessable income above a low limit of 60k/120k/220k (depending on status) were/are required to obtain a TIN and file a tax return, So nothing has changed, the same rules that always were in force are still in force and no new rules have been enacted.

[ukrules]

4 minutes ago, LOG54 said:

Thanks a lot..I have taken this into account already in case the confirm their 2025 project.

Went to meet my tax advisor yesterday and apparently they have regular meetings in Bgk with executives of the Revenue department.. in the last meeting last week they said that finally for 2024, they changed the procedure and people who don t enter money don't have to file any declaration, neither get a tax ID and won't pay anything.. so, now I will quietly wait till they clear year 2025 decision.

 

Have a good day and thanks again

 

Saved you a lot of legwork I suspect by double checking here.

Some tax experts advice is not worth the paper it's printed on. I have so little trust in them that I would seek at least 2 opinions and perhaps more if they don't agree on everything.

However my needs are simple as a non resident for a few years.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

 

Saved you a lot of legwork I suspect by double checking here.

Some tax experts advice is not worth the paper it's printed on. I have so little trust in them that I would seek at least 2 opinions and perhaps more if they don't agree on everything.

However my needs are simple as a non resident for a few years.

Agreed. I think it's too early to think about consulting tax "experts", I suggest waiting until later in the year when the new tax forms are released and any announcements have been made regarding the new rules etc. We'll also begin to see first hand reports in January of people who have filed tax returns and their experiences of dealing with TRD and that may provide further guidance.

[bugger bognor]

No Rules or regulations have changed! The Thai tax system is a honour based system out of the 40 million workers approximately 10 million pay tax! That leaves 30 million people who allegedly don't meet the tax threshold! why are the expat community in such a flap ! There not going after any of there own 30 million non tax payers first, the voluntary based tax system will stay in place there is no statements from ANY official government departments about any enforcement There has been no government campaign to inform expats  to do anything at all regarding tax   I would suggest strongly if all expats had to get a tax number and file for taxes next year every immigration office in the country would be attaching letters informing you on your 90 day reporting regarding the matter 

I would like to point out to enforce all expats to get a TN and file for taxes would be almost impossible for the current tax department to process here are some reasons.    staff not trained in global tax laws , not enough bilingual staff many expats here don't speak English or Thai!  if we were all to get a TN and try to submit a tax return in January the staff and offices could not cope with such an influx it will take many years to train and expand their employees also more offices specifically for expats with the appropriate staff! My belief is the system will stay the same no new information by any departments will be forthcoming there will be hilarious scenes in January of expats trying file returns the do goody prefect type eager to give the Thai government there cash only to be told we don't know please go home we don't need sabai sabai

[lordgrinz]

BangkokPost just posted again about the Revenue Department drafting law changes to move to taxing WorldWide income, the Director General of the Revenue Department seems to be Hellbent on passing this nonsense.

[tomacht8]

I'll wait and see what happens next year with this annoying, planed tax fishing.

For 2025 I plan to stay in Thailand for under 180 days. Instead, Portugal and Greece in the summer. Plus Vietnam and Philippines when it's too cold in Europe. I can also spend my money elsewhere. Problem solved.

[Djinn91]

8 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

No Rules or regulations have changed! The Thai tax system is a honour based system out of the 40 million workers approximately 10 million pay tax! That leaves 30 million people who allegedly don't meet the tax threshold! why are the expat community in such a flap ! There not going after any of there own 30 million non tax payers first, the voluntary based tax system will stay in place there is no statements from ANY official government departments about any enforcement There has been no government campaign to inform expats  to do anything at all regarding tax   I would suggest strongly if all expats had to get a tax number and file for taxes next year every immigration office in the country would be attaching letters informing you on your 90 day reporting regarding the matter 

I would like to point out to enforce all expats to get a TN and file for taxes would be almost impossible for the current tax department to process here are some reasons.    staff not trained in global tax laws , not enough bilingual staff many expats here don't speak English or Thai!  if we were all to get a TN and try to submit a tax return in January the staff and offices could not cope with such an influx it will take many years to train and expand their employees also more offices specifically for expats with the appropriate staff! My belief is the system will stay the same no new information by any departments will be forthcoming there will be hilarious scenes in January of expats trying file returns the do goody prefect type eager to give the Thai government there cash only to be told we don't know please go home we don't need sabai sabai

Yea this, well thought-out and to the point.

 

Expats are worrying again about nothing...

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

BangkokPost just posted again about the Revenue Department drafting law changes to move to taxing WorldWide income, the Director General of the Revenue Department seems to be Hellbent on passing this nonsense.

Thx for posting.

I just read it.

Nothing new, except they really mean it.

 

For me, this would probably be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Pollution already means I won't spend the EU winter here anymore - but it's a bit weird to spend only the EU summer here. 

Ever increasing bureaucracy (online 90 days never working,  now TM 30 again, soon ETA...) ... this used to be a country where I never saw a bureacrat in my first 10 years, that was very nice.

It's not the small amount of taxes I might have to pay. It's the amount of time I waste with bureaucracy. 

 

[ukrules]

3 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

BangkokPost just posted again about the Revenue Department drafting law changes to move to taxing WorldWide income, the Director General of the Revenue Department seems to be Hellbent on passing this nonsense.

 

This will be a pain in the arse if they proceed with it, it's one of the very few reasons I stayed in Thailand when I first came.

 

For 2024 and 2025 at a minimum I will be a non resident anyway and split my time between Thailand and Cambodia with a little holiday somewhere else to avoid residency in any country, you can do this depending on where you come from - but not if you come from some countries and it depends on how long you've been away from your country of nationality.

 

It might be time to purchase somewhere more permanent down here in Cambodia. I'm going to look into that if they do manage to get this proposed law change through parliament in the next 10 years or so. Being Thailand i wouldn't hold my breath on that.

 

This is where the CRS data could be of use to them, right now they can only tax remitted income making the CRS data completely useless to them as you could earn a couple of million dollars per year, see it in your bank accounts but they can't touch it as it's outside the scope of the current legislation. But with worldwide taxation in place CRS data becomes important. Right now though it's useless to them if they even get it.

[tomkenet]

From the article in BP

"

Previously, if an individual met the 180-day tax resident requirement and had foreign income, they paid personal income tax on that income only if it was brought into the country within the year it was earned.

 

This rule was revised effective from Jan 1, 2024. Tax is now payable on foreign income regardless of when it is brought into the country. To give an example, Mr A sold shares in an overseas company in 2020, realised a capital gain and banked the money in an overseas account. If he brings the proceeds from that capital gain into Thailand in 2024, he must report it as assessable income when filing a tax return.

"

 

Seems like the writer have missed P.O.162.

 

[andre47]

5 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

This will be a pain in the arse if they proceed with it, it's one of the very few reasons I stayed in Thailand when I first came.

 

For 2024 and 2025 at a minimum I will be a non resident anyway and split my time between Thailand and Cambodia with a little holiday somewhere else to avoid residency in any country, you can do this depending on where you come from - but not if you come from some countries and it depends on how long you've been away from your country of nationality.

 

It might be time to purchase somewhere more permanent down here in Cambodia. I'm going to look into that if they do manage to get this proposed law change through parliament in the next 10 years or so. Being Thailand i wouldn't hold my breath on that.

 

This is where the CRS data could be of use to them, right now they can only tax remitted income making the CRS data completely useless to them as you could earn a couple of million dollars per year, see it in your bank accounts but they can't touch it as it's outside the scope of the current legislation. But with worldwide taxation in place CRS data becomes important. Right now though it's useless to them if they even get it.

It might be difficult for you to keep your bank accounts in any OECD country if your don't have any tax residency (TIN).

[Mike Teavee]

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

This will be a pain in the arse if they proceed with it, it's one of the very few reasons I stayed in Thailand when I first came.

 

For 2024 and 2025 at a minimum I will be a non resident anyway and split my time between Thailand and Cambodia with a little holiday somewhere else to avoid residency in any country, you can do this depending on where you come from - but not if you come from some countries and it depends on how long you've been away from your country of nationality.

 

It might be time to purchase somewhere more permanent down here in Cambodia. I'm going to look into that if they do manage to get this proposed law change through parliament in the next 10 years or so. Being Thailand i wouldn't hold my breath on that.

 

This is where the CRS data could be of use to them, right now they can only tax remitted income making the CRS data completely useless to them as you could earn a couple of million dollars per year, see it in your bank accounts but they can't touch it as it's outside the scope of the current legislation. But with worldwide taxation in place CRS data becomes important. Right now though it's useless to them if they even get it.

If they do move to Worldwide Taxation I'd look to move to an "NT" tax code in the UK and just pay tax here  https://www.riftrefunds.co.uk/advice/tax-codes/nt-tax-code/

 

To be honest, as I live here & use public services here, it seems fairer to me than me paying Tax in the UK.