Make take on the new tax laws and panic

[wmlc]

Considering that the 180 day rule has been around for years and just some changes on what income is included were amended this year, I would say everyone  is overreacting about all this tax news. Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry. The more logical statement is "IF" they announce. I don't think there will be a "when". Why? Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now. Regarding ways they could enforce it. Currently, they only enforce the filing of personal income tax in Thailand when one needs to renew a work permit. Moving forward, they could use the exit and entry history from immigration and send notices out, but then what? They could impose stricter bank of Thailand regulations where banks would need to notify the revenue dept more often on the money you receive from abroad. Then what? They could ask immigration to request proof you filed personal income tax before they extend your Retirement visa or Thai wife visa. ****For all you ridiculous people, extension of stay based on being retired or married to a Thai....geeze who cares. Most members understand visa and visa extension and it's easier for them to comprehend.*** So, anyways, then what? Immigration won't want to deal with all this. That's for sure. 

 

In my opinion, all this will be too much trouble for the Thai government. They won't be able to organize all this properly. They would have to make an online website for foreigners to register for a tax ID. They would have to have a concrete plan of enforcement with multiple government sectors  involved. All that to force foreigners to file. Yes, that's right. Force them to file, not pay. With most countries, there are DTAs to prevent people from being double taxed. 

 

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. It will never happen. Just like it never happened before. 

 

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system, I laughed hysterically. I wish Thailand the best of luck, but I don't think they will be able to pull any of this off. Besides, a new government will come along in a few years and change the strategy again on all these things. Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't. 

[Everyman]

7 minutes ago, wmlc said:

 

Considering that the 180 day rule has been around for years and just some changes on what income is included were amended this year, I would say everyone  is overreacting about all this tax news. Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry. The more logical statement is "IF" they announce. I don't think there will be a "when". Why? Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now. Regarding ways they could enforce it. Currently, they only enforce the filing of personal income tax in Thailand when one needs to renew a work permit. Moving forward, they could use the exit and entry history from immigration and send notices out, but then what? They could impose stricter bank of Thailand regulations where banks would need to notify the revenue dept more often on the money you receive from abroad. Then what? They could ask immigration to request proof you filed personal income tax before they extend your Retirement visa or Thai wife visa. ****For all you ridiculous people, extension of stay based on being retired or married to a Thai....geeze who cares. Most members understand visa and visa extension and it's easier for them to comprehend.*** So, anyways, then what? Immigration won't want to deal with all this. That's for sure. 

 

In my opinion, all this will be too much trouble for the Thai government. They won't be able to organize all this properly. They would have to make an online website for foreigners to register for a tax ID. They would have to have a concrete plan of enforcement with multiple government sectors  involved. All that to force foreigners to file. Yes, that's right. Force them to file, not pay. With most countries, there are DTAs to prevent people from being double taxed. 

 

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. It will never happen. Just like it never happened before. 

 

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system, I laughed hysterically. I wish Thailand the best of luck, but I don't think they will be able to pull any of this off. Besides, a new government will come along in a few years and change the strategy again on all these things. Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't. 

 

Well said. I could not agree more. 

 

Thailand is the hub of the government announcing ridiculous things that never happen. Anyone remember when they announced that that Thailand will host the Tour de France? 

[SingAPorn]

Precisely as they get nothing straight here, is all more reason to worry as they can wrongfully impose tax, making it a bureaucratic nightmare to justify that one is not liable to be taxed.

[wmlc]

20 minutes ago, SingAPorn said:

Precisely as they get nothing straight here, is all more reason to worry as they can wrongfully impose tax, making it a bureaucratic nightmare to justify that one is not liable to be taxed.

What is your opinion on enforcement?

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, wmlc said:

Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't.

 

Would you send several million dollars worth of previously untaxed currency into Thailand on the off chance nothing changes and it might not affect you at any point in the next 10 years when they get around to doing an audit on every financial transaction you've ever done since arriving?

 

 

You don't worry about a problem like the above - you take action and eliminate the possibility of it ever happening.

 

[soalbundy]

A simple standard letter issued through every IO from the tax office at the time of the 90 day registration telling you to register at the tax office would suffice, if you ignore that you are guilty of tax evasion, it's not rocket science. Having said that I don't believe they will be ready by 2024 due to lack of qualified personnel, of course they will be relying on tax accountants to do the heavy lifting and it's an ideal chance for some illegal moonlighting by the rank and file tax inspectors, one reason why this will become a reality, the scope for corruption is immense

[wmlc]

23 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

A simple standard letter issued through every IO from the tax office at the time of the 90 day registration telling you to register at the tax office would suffice, if you ignore that you are guilty of tax evasion, it's not rocket science. Having said that I don't believe they will be ready by 2024 due to lack of qualified personnel, of course they will be relying on tax accountants to do the heavy lifting and it's an ideal chance for some illegal moonlighting by the rank and file tax inspectors, one reason why this will become a reality, the scope for corruption is immense

May I ask how you think they would enforce this regulation on people that refuse to file and ignore that letter you described ? Especially, if they don't insist on seeing any evidence of you filing before doing your extension. I've given my ideas of how they could enforce it and I don't think they have the budget, man power, or the organization skills to take on such a large task. What are your ideas on this?

 

Further, I was just thinking that the letter you described would be similar to the overstay warning they often get us to sign at immigration. However, the difference is that overstay is easily enforced on exit out of Thailand or during a spot check in a club, bar, or roadside stop. 

[wmlc]

27 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Would you send several million dollars worth of previously untaxed currency into Thailand on the off chance nothing changes and it might not affect you at any point in the next 10 years when they get around to doing an audit on every financial transaction you've ever done since arriving?

 

 

You don't worry about a problem like the above - you take action and eliminate the possibility of it ever happening.

 

When you use the term "off chance" it leads me to believe you think all this will be enforced almost 100%. What are your thoughts on why they didn't enforce the 180 day rule as it was prior to Jan 2024?  

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, SingAPorn said:

Precisely as they get nothing straight here, is all more reason to worry as they can wrongfully impose tax, making it a bureaucratic nightmare to justify that one is not liable to be taxed.

I agree. 

 

They'll bring something in that turns a baht, even if it's an absolute mess and causes chaos. 

 

They'll tweak it by making up the rules as they go along, but to totally back flip on it would mean walking away from a lot of money, and losing a lot of "face."  

 

In my opinion, something's coming around the corner.  Best be prepared for it with some options. 

[QuantumQuandry]

Yay, another prognostication.

 

We don't know.  We will see.  Let the people who want to worry about it...worry about it.  Let the ones who don't...carry on.

 

Yeah, some people are worried.  Probably the ones that have the most to lose.

 

And other people just bury their head in the sand and say it can never happen.  Either because they are afraid or have nothing to lose, anyway.

[KhunHeineken]

42 minutes ago, wmlc said:

What is your opinion on enforcement?

My opinion on it is a foreigner will need to make contact with the TRD between 1st Jan and 31st March for paper returns, and the 8th April for online returns. 

 

You will have to declare your income / remittances.  You will then pay your tax bill, if you have one, and then the TRD will issue a document.  You will need this document for your annual extension.

 

I envisage you will also need this document to leave Thailand if one has been here for more than 180 days in the calendar year.  I have posted airports and boarders may have a "tax desk" similar to the "overstay desk" where you will have to pay before you can leave, but this is for another thread. 

 

You don't produce a document from the TRD, no extension granted.  You don't seek an extension because you are leaving Thailand, you may be directed to the tax desk at the airport because immigration will know you are a resident of Thailand for tax purposes.  

 

You may not pay the right amount of tax, but they will make you pay something, and that's all this is about.  Just another earner for them. 

 

I also expect "agents" will offer to deal with the TRD  as well. 

 

[wmlc]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

My opinion on it is a foreigner will need to make contact with the TRD between 1st Jan and 31st March for paper returns, and the 8th April for online returns. 

 

You will have to declare your income / remittances.  You will then pay your tax bill, if you have one, and then the TRD will issue a document.  You will need this document for your annual extension.

 

I envisage you will also need this document to leave Thailand if one has been here for more than 180 days in the calendar year.  I have posted airports and boarders may have a "tax desk" similar to the "overstay desk" where you will have to pay before you can leave, but this is for another thread. 

 

You don't produce a document from the TRD, no extension granted.  You don't seek an extension because you are leaving Thailand, you may be directed to the tax desk at the airport because immigration will know you are a resident of Thailand for tax purposes.  

 

You may not pay the right amount of tax, but they will make you pay something, and that's all this is about.  Just another earner for them. 

 

I also expect "agents" will offer to deal with the TRD  as well. 

 

That's interesting to say the least. Do you have confidence that they will be able to arrange all that? I' m skeptical based on 15 years in Thailand, I have never seen a Thai government initiative with so much attention and efficiency. I am thinking they don't have what it takes. Let's see. 

[KhunHeineken]

53 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Would you send several million dollars worth of previously untaxed currency into Thailand on the off chance nothing changes and it might not affect you at any point in the next 10 years when they get around to doing an audit on every financial transaction you've ever done since arriving?

 

 

You don't worry about a problem like the above - you take action and eliminate the possibility of it ever happening.

 

Well said. 

 

Those thinking of purchasing property here should reconsider their position.  You may only get to live in it for 179 days of the year, or, pay a lot of tax and receive absolutely zero back in public services for the money. 

[soalbundy]

17 minutes ago, wmlc said:

May I ask how you think they would enforce this regulation on people that refuse to file and ignore that letter you described ? Especially, if they don't insist on seeing any evidence of you filing before doing your extension. I've given my ideas of how they could enforce it and I don't think they have the budget, man power, or the organization skills to take on such a large task. What are your ideas on this?

 

Further, I was just thinking that the letter you described would be similar to the overstay warning they often get us to sign at immigration. However, the difference is that overstay is easily enforced on exit out of Thailand or during a spot check in a club, bar, or roadside stop. 

By visa renewal you get an 'under consideration stamp', the student employee then, at the end of the day, punches in all the names online to the tax office, the tax office clears all those registered with them and you get your visa, otherwise not. It could be made quite simple. It's never a good idea to mess with the tax office. Imagine it's inefficient for 2 or 3 years and you have evaded tax, then one fine day you get called in to back pay 3 years ++++ and get charged with tax evasion and get deported. I've worked out that at the very most they could charge me is 25,000 Baht for a year, that's less than the tax I would pay in Germany for 2 months while I was working, I haven't paid tax legally anywhere for nigh on 20 years so I've had a good run.

[KhunHeineken]

35 minutes ago, wmlc said:

What are your thoughts on why they didn't enforce the 180 day rule as it was prior to Jan 2024?  

Probably a greedy Minister decided to finally milk the cash cow that's been in the paddock for all these years. 

[bg53]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

 

Would you send several million dollars worth of previously untaxed currency into Thailand on the off chance nothing changes and it might not affect you at any point in the next 10 years when they get around to doing an audit on every financial transaction you've ever done since arriving?

 

 

You don't worry about a problem like the above - you take action and eliminate the possibility of it ever happening.

 

 

 

I agree. If Plan B involves logistics and the movement of financial assets, it would be wise to lay it out ahead of time.

 

[KhunHeineken]

55 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

A simple standard letter issued through every IO from the tax office at the time of the 90 day registration telling you to register at the tax office would suffice, if you ignore that you are guilty of tax evasion, it's not rocket science. Having said that I don't believe they will be ready by 2024 due to lack of qualified personnel, of course they will be relying on tax accountants to do the heavy lifting and it's an ideal chance for some illegal moonlighting by the rank and file tax inspectors, one reason why this will become a reality, the scope for corruption is immense

You have to produce a bank document for the 800k to immigration. 

 

What's stopping the TRD demanding you show them a bank document showing the total of deposits in your bank account/s for the calendar year, and based on those totals, minus some allowances, is what you pay in tax in order for them to give you the document you need for your extension?

 

I know everyone wants to go on about what's "assessable" income, savings etc etc blah blah.  They will not care because they haven't got a clue.  They will throw a figure at you, based on bank deposits.  Pay it, or no extension.  They know foreigners will pay. 

 

It will be messy, possibly unjust for some, and some tax evasion for others, but they will make money out of it, whereas, they never did before, and that's all they care about, the extra money coming in.  TIT.

[wmlc]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You have to produce a bank document for the 800k to immigration. 

 

What's stopping the TRD demanding you show them a bank document showing the total of deposits in your bank account/s for the calendar year, and based on those totals, minus some allowances, is what you pay in tax in order for them to give you the document you need for your extension?

 

I know everyone wants to go on about what's "assessable" income, savings etc etc blah blah.  They will not care because they haven't got a clue.  They will throw a figure at you, based on bank deposits.  Pay it, or no extension.  They know foreigners will pay. 

 

It will be messy, possibly unjust for some, and some tax evasion for others, but they will make money out of it, whereas, they never did before, and that's all they care about, the extra money coming in.  TIT.

The point I am making is they won't do it because they don't have the organization skills, time, budget, or resources for it. Your idea would take a lot of preparation. Sure they can do it, but they won't in my opinion because they just can't.

[KhunHeineken]

14 minutes ago, wmlc said:

That's interesting to say the least. Do you have confidence that they will be able to arrange all that? I' m skeptical based on 15 years in Thailand, I have never seen a Thai government initiative with so much attention and efficiency. I am thinking they don't have what it takes. Let's see. 

As I have said, TIT, and anything is possible.  For all we know, there could be another military coup next week. 

 

Thailand is unstable, and foreigners have no rights.  I have often said, the 1 year retirement visa / extension is nothing more than a 12 month tourist visa.  It gives you no more rights than someone on a 30 day visa exemption stamp. 

 

If the Thai government says jump, foreigners ask how high.  They will give you a tax bill, pay it, or no extension.  Try to leave Thailand without paying it, and it will flag up at the airport.  This is not scaremongering.  We have seen it for tourists who have trashed hotel rooms and head to the airport.  They are detained until they pay for the damage. 

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, wmlc said:

The point I am making is they won't do it because they don't have the organization skills, time, budget, or resources for it. Your idea would take a lot of preparation. Sure they can do it, but they won't in my opinion because they just can't.

Interesting theory. 

 

We all hope it just goes away, but do you really think it will?  There's a lot of money at stake. 

[wmlc]

Just now, KhunHeineken said:

Interesting theory. 

 

We all hope it just goes away, but do you really think it will?  There's a lot of money at stake. 

In my opinion, the worst case scenario will be a failed attempt. 

[KhunHeineken]

15 minutes ago, bg53 said:

 

 

I agree. If Plan B involves logistics and the movement of financial assets, it would be wise to lay it out ahead of time.

 

If it all goes ahead, the property market here will tank, and those who either can't afford the tax bill to stay, or want to sell up and leave in order to pay the tax bill will not be able to liquidate without a fire sale and accepting heavily losses. 

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, wmlc said:

In my opinion, the worst case scenario will be a failed attempt. 

So, you believe they will walk away from all that money, and lose "face." 

 

I disagree with you, and have given my reasons, but I really do hope you are right. 

[wmlc]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

If it all goes ahead, the property market here will tank, and those who either can't afford the tax bill to stay, or want to sell up and leave in order to pay the tax bill will not be able to liquidate without a fire sale and accepting heavily losses. 

Agreed. Because they would be trying to implement something that has been non existent forever. No more long term tourists. No more retirees. Makes no sense right. 

[wmlc]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, you believe they will walk away from all that money, and lose "face." 

 

I disagree with you, and have given my reasons, but I really do hope you are right. 

Other than reports in the news, have you actually seen a Thai government press conference about this topic? This topic meaning enforcement. That will need to happen because there would need to be so many government  agencies involved and the expats would need to be informed. Further, this new law was originally designed to keep the Thais who work abroad honest. I still believe that to be true today and they won't be targeting foreigners. 

 

Thanks for the discussion. It's n ice to be able to discuss stuff on here without the name calling and arguing. Cheers.

[bg53]

3 minutes ago, wmlc said:

Further, this new law was originally designed to keep the Thais who work abroad honest. I still believe that to be true today and they won't be targeting foreigners. 

 

The Thais who work abroad are not tax residents. 

[wmlc]

3 minutes ago, bg53 said:

 

The Thais who work abroad are not tax residents. 

They are because many only work abroad part time and come back with their money to spend it here. Also they also may have other things that make them a resident. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

There are so many things wrong in the OP but there are also some things that are right.  Which ones will be right and wrong in the future is the issue/concern.  I will not debate the rights and wrongs of each point right now, but I will add the big issue that many people overlook.

 

When you get nabbed for speeding, not wearing helmet, over staying, etc etc etc. The penalties are 'singular' and are not that heavy - yes they could include deportation - but they are singular in their legal nature.  Imagine if the Thai police pulled you over for not wearing a helmet in 2030, and because of that they have the ability to find out every single time you did not wear a helmet going back to 2024. Plus they can then arbitrarily decide how much fines you should have paid, plus apply penalties for not paying those fines, plus add 1.5% per month interest penalty on those amounts - all going back to 2024.  That is being audited by the tax office - they go backwards and examine everything, and in Thailand they have a lot of arbitrary power and are not constrained by reasonable/fair rules and regulations.  In the case of Thailand, it would be back to 2024. It is not about getting away withy it one year - there is no getting away with it for one year - if they investigate your financial affairs in 2030 they can and will go back to 2024.

 

Thinking that it will be OK because they will take years to get this all sorted is only OK if you will not be here in years.  Yes - it will take them years, but then if you are caught/targeted, they can and will audit you going back to 2024. Thailand can now get all the financial records from your home country, and also in Thailand, going back to 2024 when they complied with OECD regulations. 

 

If you are only staying a few years, then go right ahead and ignore it, if you feel so inclined - but if you are planning to be here a long time, then you would be wise to not dismiss it out of hand like this OP has suggested.  It will take a while before we know how the TRD is going to play this for retired/married Expats, but until then it is best to stay across things and not dismiss it out of hand.  

 

[bg53]

1 minute ago, wmlc said:

They are because many only work abroad part time and come back with their money to spend it here. 

This is a small slice of the labor market (come back >180 days).

[wmlc]

1 minute ago, bg53 said:

This is a small slice of the labor market (come back >180 days).

I don't agree. I will give you a huge example. The girls that go work in South Korea or Japan or Taiwan. They go three months at a time once or twice per year and earn big money.