Are Unions still relevant?

[georgegeorgia]

I want your opinion on trade unions representing workers in the workplace,are they relevant nowadays?

I know they were strong in the UK once representing miners etc

 

I did hear in the USA some States have banned Unions representing workers .

 

Anyway the reason I ask is because last night during my shift as a hospital cleaner I had a Union person middle-aged bespectacled uni type nerd  turn up to ask why I had left the Cleaners Union several years ago.

 

I immediately told him I had been "locked up in Thailand" the last 6 weeks,he was in shock as I went into a long rant about the Zimmer frame old people and the Manila Subway story and how I walked up and down the subway at night.

 

Being in Australia he had no idea what a farang was and never been to Thailand 

 

I hadn't even finished telling him about the farang drunks at the mini mart before he excused himself saying he had to go to the toilet ,

 

About 5 minutes later I then noticed his car speeding out of the car park !

 

He hadn't bothered signing me up and I would of refused 

 

He was going to leave me his business card but he left without giving it to me otherwise I would of rang him to finish the story about the farang  drunks at the mini mart at the Nirun condos 

 

Are Unions relevant?

Was you or are you a Union member?

 

 

Edited June 11 by georgegeorgia

[EVENKEEL]

My Co. Commander at Navy Boot Camp comes to mind as he was talking to an extremely dim witted guy. "Is someone paying you to fork with me?"

[KhunLA]

To the topic ... been on all sides of the 'union' discussion;

... wanting one

... needing one

... for them

... against them

... was hired during a strike (scab), then became the union rep for contract negotiations of a new (abusive) union, which actually contributed to the bankruptcy of same company 

 

They have their place and are a necessary evil at times, along with being a business within themselves. 

 

It's good some states ban mandatory union membership to work at a company.  Freedom of choice is always a good thing.

Edited June 11 by KhunLA

[stoner]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

along with been a business within themselves. 

 

when they grow so big its inevitable. 

[2baht]

Damn Union can't get me a pension rise! Irrelevant!

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, stoner said:

when they grow so big its inevitable. 

They'll accept a crap contract for the workers, but the union reps, working the same job, same union, same local, get better bennies, and vested retirement quicker.   Sort of like the Congress of USA, rules don't apply to them, but force crap on workers/citizens.   It turns into getting as much dues revenue as possible.

 

All a bit of eye opening when you're on all sides of it.  When we were negotiating the contract, they were simple asking for too much, but a strike would have killed the company.   What they got helped kill the company.   I was elected rep for that city, (airlines (EWR).   Against the contract myself, but membership at EWR I represented voted yes for it, so that's what I voted, but expressed my reservations to the other reps.   Shame Congress doesn't vote the way the people want, as that is their job.

 

Altair Airlines, just came off a horrendous strike, no customers, bad rep, and just went from prop to jet planes, high fuel costs, flying near empty, and the union asked for too much, as they were bleeding $$$ already.

 

I saw the writing on the wall, and jumped ship to Continental Airlines, and 6 months later, Altair went belly up.

 

Altair was private company, and hobby airlines of one of the Heinz family member's husband.   Good idea, but his wife controlled the $$$, and finally said enough.

[susanlea]

5 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

They'll accept a crap contract for the workers, but the union reps, working the same job, same union, same local, get better bennies, and vested retirement quicker.   Sort of like the Congress of USA, rules don't apply to them, but force crap on workers/citizens.   It turns into getting as much dues revenue as possible.

 

All a bit of eye opening when you're on all sides of it.  When we were negotiating the contract, they were simple asking for too much, but a strike would have killed the company.   What they got helped kill the company.   I was elected rep for that city, (airlines (EWR).   Against the contract myself, but membership at EWR I represented voted yes for it, so that's what I voted, but expressed my reservations to the other reps.   Shame Congress doesn't vote the way the people want, as that is their job.

 

Altair Airlines, just came off a horrendous strike, no customers, bad rep, and just went from prop to jet planes, high fuel costs, flying near empty, and the union asked for too much, as they were bleeding $$$ already.

 

I saw the writing on the wall, and jumped ship to Continental Airlines, and 6 months later, Altair went belly up.

 

Altair was private company, and hobby airlines of one of the Heinz family member's husband.   Good idea, but his wife controlled the $$$, and finally said enough.

Union bosses are usually awful people. You saw that first hand. 

[stoner]

1 minute ago, susanlea said:

Union bosses are usually awful people. You saw that first hand. 

 

as with most who rise to a position of power or authority they become corrupted.

[scubascuba3]

Problem with unions is they push for more rights, higher wages to the point employers offshore abroad and now use AI instead, so ultimately unions kill jobs

[findlay13]

20 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Problem with unions is they push for more rights, higher wages to the point employers offshore abroad and now use AI instead, so ultimately unions kill jobs

And bosses kill wages.Look at the average Thai wage,That's why all the companies move to the LOS, cheap labour and no safety or environmental conditions that can't be  "dealt with" . It's a concerted effort in Australia. Kill Unions, Kill Superannuation,  kill medicare, and  It's working.Then you can work as day to day and casual labour.It doesn't matter to me I'm retired but all the job security and conditions won by workers are, and have been slowly eroded .I do  agree the unions get too big for their boots though .It's a conundrum 

Edited June 12 by findlay13

[itsari]

16 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Problem with unions is they push for more rights, higher wages to the point employers offshore abroad and now use AI instead, so ultimately unions kill jobs

Many companies would find taking there business abroad would be impossible if they require skilled labour and artificial inteligence will not help them either. 

Unions can help the smooth operation of the business when you have management that understands how to work with them.

 

[EVENKEEL]

One company I worked for, a guy came to work with a Teamsters sticker on his lunchbox, immediately fired. Of course he kept his job eventually.

[mfd101]

27 minutes ago, itsari said:

Unions can help the smooth operation of the business when you have management that understands how to work with them.

Yes, and when the unions understand how the business and management work and the concept of productivity. Together they can be a formidable force for the good of both the company and the workers. Fighting against each other never produces anything good.

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

I want your opinion on trade unions representing workers in the workplace,are they relevant nowadays?

I know they were strong in the UK once representing miners etc

 

I did hear in the USA some States have banned Unions representing workers .

 

Anyway the reason I ask is because last night during my shift as a hospital cleaner I had a Union person middle-aged bespectacled uni type nerd  turn up to ask why I had left the Cleaners Union several years ago.

 

I immediately told him I had been "locked up in Thailand" the last 6 weeks,he was in shock as I went into a long rant about the Zimmer frame old people and the Manila Subway story and how I walked up and down the subway at night.

 

Being in Australia he had no idea what a farang was and never been to Thailand 

 

I hadn't even finished telling him about the farang drunks at the mini mart before he excused himself saying he had to go to the toilet ,

 

About 5 minutes later I then noticed his car speeding out of the car park !

 

He hadn't bothered signing me up and I would of refused 

 

He was going to leave me his business card but he left without giving it to me otherwise I would of rang him to finish the story about the farang  drunks at the mini mart at the Nirun condos 

 

Are Unions relevant?

Was you or are you a Union member?

 

 

My father was a supervisor within a manufacturing company until he retired.  At the same company were several uncles.  During Union-called strikes at that company, my father sat in on the negotiations and then talked with his brothers.  The Union was lying to the workers about the negotiations totally.  Eventually, they settled but several more weeks later even though the company had already given in to the demands of the union.  Yes, UNIONS were necessary decades earlier but then the feds and states passed laws protecting workers rights and working conditions.  Once that happened, the need for unions ceased but too many had a desire to continue receiving funds from the workers thus they fought to keep the unions alive.  I personally worked at a manufacturing company too, that the workers had forced the union out and replaced it with a workers committee that negotiated anything needed from the company and it worked extremely well from both sides.  Unions have outlived their existence in my opinion.

[scubascuba3]

2 hours ago, itsari said:

Many companies would find taking there business abroad would be impossible if they require skilled labour and artificial inteligence will not help them either. 

Unions can help the smooth operation of the business when you have management that understands how to work with them.

 

Plenty of companies get skilled labour abroad at a fraction of the cost, most financial services big companies have offshored offices, often India, Sri Lanka

Edited June 12 by scubascuba3

[Fat is a type of crazy]

There is no doubt unions did lots of good stuff for workers in Australia. A union in Thailand for construction workers might make things a lot safer with more reasonable pay.

Construction workers in the very strong unions in Australia get excellent pay but the developers are still able to make a good profit. But then you hear of people controlling traffic on AUD $200,000 including overtime on government construction projects and you know it's gone too far.  

In reality if all the cleaners joined the union and flexed their muscles during pay negotiations they would likely be better off. But I understand not wanting to join too. 

Edited June 12 by Fat is a type of crazy

[novacova]

One of the annoying problems companies have with unions in the US is that company managers can’t outright fire incompetent union workers. 

[Doctor Tom]

2 minutes ago, novacova said:

One of the annoying problems companies have with unions in the US is that company managers can’t outright fire incompetent union workers. 

Its fairly straight forward  to do in the UK.  I've done it.  They are subject to the same rules as everyone else , you've just got to ensure that they are not sacked for carrying out legitimate Union business. 

[itsari]

9 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Plenty of companies get skilled labour abroad at a fraction of the cost, most financial services big companies have offshored offices, often India, Sri Lanka

I do not think financial services jobs could be considered skilled labour and that is one job that AI could take over in the near future.

I can not imagine a company such as Rolls Royce engine makers would ever manage to find the skilled labour required in a low cost country and that would apply to many manufactures in Europe and the United States.

[Yagoda]

Unions in the USA are mob moneymakers.

[scubascuba3]

58 minutes ago, itsari said:

I do not think financial services jobs could be considered skilled labour and that is one job that AI could take over in the near future.

I can not imagine a company such as Rolls Royce engine makers would ever manage to find the skilled labour required in a low cost country and that would apply to many manufactures in Europe and the United States.

Then you'd be wrong, it just requires training and they throw extra staff at it. You'll find China is getting better and better at manufacturing 

[kingstonkid]

5 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Problem with unions is they push for more rights, higher wages to the point employers offshore abroad and now use AI instead, so ultimately unions kill jobs

Unions had a place in teh beginning.  The problem now is that they feel they need to get involed with politics and diferent things instead of representing their people.

 

Consider that in the U.S., a teacher can be useless and still not lose their job.  

 

Teachers' unions have nothing to do with helping education and everything to do with political points to the point that they back teaching everything but reading, writing, and Math in favour of LGBTQ+ and rights.

 

There is nothing wrong with the old-style unions that fought for their workers. The problem, as has been stated, is that many of these unions have been so pushy that they have not considered the future.  They did not look at globalization. They did not take into account the costs when Baby boomers retired.

 

Foreign car makers that need to be in teh U.S. for rules have found that they can pay a good wage and give benefits the same as Unions desire so that there is not a neeed for them.

[Flyguy330]

Where to begin......😑

 

Lets start with this - I am living a very comfortable retirement now, thanks entirely to my Union. My Union was not a huxters scam, or a mafia, it was a professional association of men and women determined to protect their job contract and conditions. It was not communist, or socialist, it was anti-corporatist, anti-elitist and anti-exploitationist.

 

If it was not for the solidarity of that group I would not have a pension now, and I would not be living a decent retirement in SE Asia. I would be broke and living in poverty in the freezing cold back home.

 

We stood up to all attempts of self agrandising managers to further their own careers by destroying ours. Yes, it sometimes involved having the backbone to strike. That only ever happened when we were pushed to the absolute limit by managers who believed they could break us. They always failed, and it cost many of them their own jobs.

 

It amazes me how brainwashed and deluded so many of the current generation are. Especially in the United States. Indeed it's a uniquely American product, one of their biggest exports. Workers have bought into the propaganda rammed down their throats by the Corporate Media daily - Unions are bad for you, they are Anti American, Unions are commies, save your money on Union fees, don't expect a permanent job anyway, it's a gig economy so get a gig, health insurance is optional, so get a side gig to pay for it, you have no right to strike, stop complaining, and when you're 60 <deleted> off and die quietly - and the sooner the better.

 

This same US Corporatism has infected much of the anglosphere.  I'm not from the US, but I see the same message sold every day in my home country. When we had our 'disputes' with the company it was shocking to see how certain newspapers simply outright LIED about the issue, about wages and conditions, how they would cherry pick their facts and how they covered up those that didn't fit their biased agenda. It's why I trust nothing I read, see or hear in the mainstream media anymore. It's only when you are directly involved in a newsworthy story that you begin to understand that everything they write is lies or misdirection.

 

The anti Union movement has been hugely succesful in the last couple of decades. It is an organised effort, driven by the corporations and aided by the media they own, and the politicians they buy.

The result is millions of ordinary people seeing their incomes falling year on year. Governments open borders to cheap goods which kill homegrown business, and import dirt cheap manual labour to erode native workers pay and job security. UKIP convinced the Brits that this influx would end if they voted for Brexit - which they obligingly did. But the influx continues, and indeed increased. The Tories are standing for election and making promises to stop it - but they have had 8 years since Brexit and it continued. Why? Because ultimately it suits the Corporate Agenda to destroy British workers wages and job security.

 

It's not just the Tories - Gordon Brown (Labour) perpetrated one of the most disgusting crimes against UK workers in 1997 when he changed the accounting laws on company reports which effectively made the elimination of Defined Benefit Pension Schemes inevitable in the UK. There isn't a single FTSE100 company now that still has a DBPS. https://theconversation.com/britains-great-pension-robbery-why-the-defined-benefits-gold-standard-is-a-luxury-of-the-past-100844

 

My Union defended our DBPS to the death. I'm very grateful, as are hundreds of my colleagues.

 

 

 

[susanlea]

4 minutes ago, Flyguy330 said:

Where to begin......😑

 

Lets start with this - I am living a very comfortable retirement now, thanks entirely to my Union. My Union was not a huxters scam, or a mafia, it was a professional association of men and women determined to protect their job contract and conditions. It was not communist, or socialist, it was anti-corporatist, anti-elitist and anti-exploitationist.

 

If it was not for the solidarity of that group I would not have a pension now, and I would not be living a decent retirement in SE Asia. I would be broke and living in poverty in the freezing cold back home.

 

We stood up to all attempts of self agrandising managers to further their own careers by destroying ours. Yes, it sometimes involved having the backbone to strike. That only ever happened when we were pushed to the absolute limit by managers who believed they could break us. They always failed, and it cost many of them their own jobs.

 

It amazes me how brainwashed and deluded so many of the current generation are. Especially in the United States. Indeed it's a uniquely American product, one of their biggest exports. Workers have bought into the propaganda rammed down their throats by the Corporate Media daily - Unions are bad for you, they are Anti American, Unions are commies, save your money on Union fees, don't expect a permanent job anyway, it's a gig economy so get a gig, health insurance is optional, so get a side gig to pay for it, you have no right to strike, stop complaining, and when you're 60 <deleted> off and die quietly - and the sooner the better.

 

This same US Corporatism has infected much of the anglosphere.  I'm not from the US, but I see the same message sold every day in my home country. When we had our 'disputes' with the company it was shocking to see how certain newspapers simply outright LIED about the issue, about wages and conditions, how they would cherry pick their facts and how they covered up those that didn't fit their biased agenda. It's why I trust nothing I read, see or hear in the mainstream media anymore. It's only when you are directly involved in a newsworthy story that you begin to understand that everything they write is lies or misdirection.

 

The anti Union movement has been hugely succesful in the last couple of decades. It is an organised effort, driven by the corporations and aided by the media they own, and the politicians they buy.

The result is millions of ordinary people seeing their incomes falling year on year. Governments open borders to cheap goods which kill homegrown business, and import dirt cheap manual labour to erode native workers pay and job security. UKIP convinced the Brits that this influx would end if they voted for Brexit - which they obligingly did. But the influx continues, and indeed increased. The Tories are standing for election and making promises to stop it - but they have had 8 years since Brexit and it continued. Why? Because ultimately it suits the Corporate Agenda to destroy British workers wages and job security.

 

It's not just the Tories - Gordon Brown (Labour) perpetrated one of the most disgusting crimes against UK workers in 1997 when he changed the accounting laws on company reports which effectively made the elimination of Defined Benefit Pension Schemes inevitable in the UK. There isn't a single FTSE100 company now that still has a DBPS. https://theconversation.com/britains-great-pension-robbery-why-the-defined-benefits-gold-standard-is-a-luxury-of-the-past-100844

 

My Union defended our DBPS to the death. I'm very grateful, as are hundreds of my colleagues.

 

 

 

You moved from a high priced heavy union country to a low priced non union country to live. If Thailand had the same unions and prices it wouldn't be attractive and you wouldn't move there. So you took advantage of western unions for work to retire to Thailand where workers are exploited. So really you just played the system for your own benefit.

[Flyguy330]

I can't cure all the worlds ills.

I don't 'live' in Thailand. I told you in my post I am in SE Asia. All over it. One thing I see in my travels is that it is Government policy in most SE Asian nations to depress wages and keep their economies 'cheap' - for the Corporatists. Are you a Corporatist? Instead of criticising me, why don't you take aim at the true source of the problem.

Maybe the Thais need better Unions.

Edited June 12 by Flyguy330

[Gottfrid]

7 hours ago, georgegeorgia said:

Are Unions relevant?

No, they stopped be effective around the end of the 80s or middle 90s

[Flyguy330]

Tone deaf reply

[AAArdvark]

Seems like the UAW just got the car works a good deal. 

[susanlea]

7 minutes ago, Flyguy330 said:

I can't cure all the worlds ills.

I don't 'live' in Thailand. I told you in my post I am in SE Asia. All over it. One thing I see in my travels is that it is Government policy in most SE Asian nations to depress wages and keep their economies 'cheap' - for the Corporatists. Are you a Corporatist? Instead of criticising me, why don't you take aim at the true source of the problem.

Maybe the Thais need better Unions.

So you profited from powerful unions to pay for your overseas lifestyle where the locals get exploited. Then you rarely tip or very little. If you cared about the workers give out large tips each time. You are either helping them or just exploiting them.

[Flyguy330]

Are you a nutter?

Welcome to my ignore list. You're the first ever.

Edited June 12 by Flyguy330