Foreigner friend - Broken leg - No insurance - 400k+ medical bills - What next?

[mokwit]

2 hours ago, mokwit said:

Sounds like a case for a "gofundme".

Coming back to this, I'm serious, someone funded a $10k emergency operation in Colombia from a Gofundme and was literally drifting in and out of consciousness. Don't be shy, Yoga teachers use it to buy a new air ticket home.

[soalbundy]

3 hours ago, ronwel said:

Hi there,

 

I am writing in response to a friend of mine, he is foreigner working in Thailand, mid 30's (has been here over 10 years)

He was recently in a motorcycle accident where his leg was broken, he for some reason went to a private hospital where he received some treatment tallying upwards of 400k baht.

He has no health insurance and no funds to pay the bill Infront of him. I recommended that he move hospital, but I'm unsure if they will let him leave without paying his bill.

It's worth mentioning that the embassy is not of help and his family are also not in a position to pay the funds.

 

He says his knee is in critical condition and he needs to have surgery before it gets infected or he might loose his leg.

Is a hospital is going to let a patient paid or not get an infection and not treat it?

 

Regardless, what happens here? Do they keep him there until his bill is paid? Would they discharge him in his state?

What is the protocol here for situations where a foreign person is in a private hospital, unable to pay their bill?

 

As for answers regarding why he didn't have insurance, trust me I have been verbal on the matter. 

 

I'm interested to hear if anyone else has had a similar situation or know of someone who has had a similar situation.

 

Regards 

 

He's in for a world of pain.

[Bangel72]

The being held hostage by the hospital for fees is an interesting one. Is it legal, what should you do?  I wonder what is in the forms they likely made him sign on arrival.

 

There is something about life threatening emergency cover at all hospitals but not sure how many foreigners have been successful on that front, then transfer to government hospital.

 

Curious if anyone has had that cover and what did the transfer go smoothly

 

He may have missed that window of opportunity unfortunately, installment plan may be only option.

 

 

[scubascuba3]

10 minutes ago, Bangel72 said:

The being held hostage by the hospital for fees is an interesting one. Is it legal, what should you do?  I wonder what is in the forms they likely made him sign on arrival.

 

There is something about life threatening emergency cover at all hospitals but not sure how many foreigners have been successful on that front, then transfer to government hospital.

 

Curious if anyone has had that cover and what did the transfer go smoothly

 

He may have missed that window of opportunity unfortunately, installment plan may be only option.

 

 

Hospital's take advantage of the sick, everyone should know that by now

[Ralf001]

32 minutes ago, Bangel72 said:

 

There is something about life threatening emergency cover at all hospitals but not sure how many foreigners have been successful on that front, then transfer to government hospital.

 

 

My self admission last year to a private hospital (as it turns out) was life threatening, I had to transfer to my SS hospital due to insurance reasons.... private hospital required payment in full before they would release me.

[The Fugitive]

20 minutes ago, Bangel72 said:

The being held hostage by the hospital for fees is an interesting one. Is it legal, what should you do?  I wonder what is in the forms they likely made him sign on arrival.

 

There is something about life threatening emergency cover at all hospitals but not sure how many foreigners have been successful on that front, then transfer to government hospital.

 

Curious if anyone has had that cover and what did the transfer go smoothly

 

He may have missed that window of opportunity unfortunately, installment plan may be only option.

Government and private hospitals are both obliged to provide emergency treatment. However, it is not provided free by either. In reality, Government Hospitals are more likely to provide it initially for free then request payment for the work done afterwards (assuming the patient survives of course). Private hospitals are reluctant to provide anything without prior payment. Private hospitals have been known to refuse emergency admissions, the casualty being redirected to a Government hospital but, unfortunately, dying before they got there. Treatment going forward has to be paid for in advance (unless the patient holds health insurance and the hospital agrees to accept direct payment from their insurance company). Inability to pay (Government or private hospital) will result in treatment being discontinued. Care only would continue until the patient died of their condition or pneumonia through immobility etc.

[Dan O]

4 hours ago, dddave said:

Ambulance services get paid bounties by private hospitals for accident victims though less so for uninsured ones.  I suspect the victim didn't have much choice in the matter.

You could be lying injured in the street in front of a Govt Hosp. and these "Volunteer" ambulance vultures will take you 20 km to the highest bidder.

where are you getting this information from? Share a link please

[ElwoodP]

More unhelpful posts removed.

[save the frogs]

7 hours ago, ronwel said:

and his family are also not in a position to pay the funds.

yes, but his family back home must have friends?

they can do a spaghetti dinner fundraiser to help raise part of the funds maybe?

 

donorbox.org

 Nonprofits run spaghetti dinner fundraisers because they’re easy to run and have an excellent return on investment.

[Lorry]

4 hours ago, NativeBob said:

To negotiate with "the hospital" is a joke, bad advice

You probably have no experience. 

 

It is absolutely normal to negotiate payment in installments. 

 

It is also absolutely normal that staff put you in the wrong category.  If you arrived as an accident, a farang will prima facie be considered a tourist. 

A resident may pay less (especially in the tourist areas, private hospitals may have many prices: e.g. foreign insurance 100,000  - tourist 70,000 - resident foreigner 60,000 - Thai 30,000 and many more)

So he should check that they didn't consider him a tourist. 

 

Last but not least, it's a free market and, of course,  you can bargain.

You cannot bargain with the girl at the cashier counter.  

And you cannot bargain about the price of an aspirin. 

5MB, you can bargain with the hospital director. 

400,000 is not that much,  you might talk to the director of the financial department, or the medical director,  or the boss of the international office if there is one -  it depends. 

[NativeBob]

2 minutes ago, Lorry said:

You probably have no experience. 

Nope, wrong call. Actually I got more than enough experience. 

That scheme of different prices is ... well ... is priceless #ROFL

 

No, there are NO checkboxes on the hospital software that issues invoices for  "khun Thai", "FARANG", "Farang Ding-Dong" and "Pee Falang". I know that for sure. 

"Free market"? Yes, only IF you negotiate BEFORE the deal, not after surgery or any kind of treatment.

Yes, you can check prices at restaurant menu and decide what would you eat and yes you are free to call the owner of restaurant to "negotiate" but not after dinner.

 

At Piyavate I saw one "Great White Negotiator" with broken leg in cast. The bill was about 75K he was lecturing some senior doctor that the treatment they provided shouldn't cost that much money and back in Italy he would pay fraction of. So he refused to pay.

 

Leaving passport as collateral brings another story - dude left his passport at police station, Phuket, next morning he was in Bangkok >>> Bang Rak police station to report "stolen passport" >>> his Embassy >>> CW >>> airport >>> home.

 

PS: Unless you posses charisma of Silvio B. who were able to convince any person into anything 😉

[Lorry]

20 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

No, there are NO checkboxes on the hospital software that issues invoices for  "khun Thai", "FARANG", "Farang Ding-Dong" and "Pee Falang". I know that for sure. 

Wrong.

Not all hospitals do this,  many do, especially in tourist places. 

If you live here, you should always get at least the resident price  (if they have one). They may want to see some supporting documentation, like your visa, a yellow book, it depends.

Of course, private hospitals usually have a much cheaper price for Thais.  If you don't know this,  you probably don't live in Thailand. 

20 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

"Free market"? Yes, only IF you negotiate BEFORE the deal, not after surgery or any kind of treatment.

Wrong again.

Not that the hospital would encourage this,  though.

It usually happens with much higher prices, like 4MB, not 400,000.

Insurances routinely negotiate the price after treatment, there a companies who make a living doing this. 

 

You should not give blatantly wrong information.

 

People from countries with "socialized" medicine are not used to bargain in a hospital,  one has to teach them. The results can be amazing (amazing as in "50% off").

Mostly, it doesn't work.  But one should try.

 

[it is what it is]

7 hours ago, dddave said:

Ambulance services get paid bounties by private hospitals for accident victims though less so for uninsured ones.  I suspect the victim didn't have much choice in the matter.

You could be lying injured in the street in front of a Govt Hosp. and these "Volunteer" ambulance vultures will take you 20 km to the highest bidder.

 

no they don't.

[Lorry]

1 minute ago, it is what it is said:

What is the protocol here for situations where a foreign person is in a private hospital, unable to pay their bill?

 

Why are you asking here? just ask the hospital.

It's a legitimate question.

 

The "protocol" is as said above.

And pay and leave asap, go into a government  hospital.

 

If the private hospital realizes that they will never get money from this patient,  they will kick him out anyway, and have him brought into a government hospital. 

They will still try to get their bill paid later.

[Lorry]

5 minutes ago, it is what it is said:

 

no they don't.

Let's say, 20km is an exaggeration.  

5km, many ambulances will do it, for the commission

[mokwit]

58 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

No, there are NO checkboxes on the hospital software that issues invoices for  "khun Thai", "FARANG", "Farang Ding-Dong" and "Pee Falang". I know that for sure. 

'fraid there is, I pay Bt250 not 50 for a doctors visit and in quoting me a price for a procedure a Doctor explained that is the Thai price, I don't know how much more the foreigner price is.

 

This was brought in for Govt hospitals by the last Health minister, Anutin.

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, it is what it is said:

 

no they don't.

The default in Pattaya seems to be BPH for farang, must be a reason for that 

[NativeBob]

19 minutes ago, mokwit said:

fraid there is

What I saw with my own eyes in Bangkok hospitals - there's not. since 2009 till 2017. 

Are we talking about ISO certified hospitals like Rama IX, Bangkok Hospital, Piyavate, Mario and alike? 

Or papa-mama clinics?

Or Sirirat on the River? Or Chulalonkorn opposite Lumpini Park? >>>> how do those work I don't know honestly.

 

And, by the way, even Bangkok Christian Hospital too, doesn't have racial features.

[Sheryl]

10 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Make it clear he can't pay, transfer to govt hospital but also agree monthly payment terms with private hospital.

 Above is best option.

 

They will not discharge  or transfer  him until he has either paid his bill or signed a repayment contract.  Meanwhile, charges will continue to mount.

 

Getting them to agree to a repayment contract  will not be easy but if he holds firm that he simply does not have the money, they eventually will.

 

Meanwhile  he should insist on a detailed bill and have someone who knows what they are looking at, go through it with a fine tooth comb as the amount seems high if he has nto yet had surgery. He should also file an accident report and see about getting the 30K he can get from that fund -- even though a drop in the bucket, it is something.

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

10 hours ago, ronwel said:

As its a private hospital, is it a private matter between him and the hospital only. Are there guidelines for what to do in a situation like this say in a government hospital.

 

 

the main difference is that a government hospital (and also some nonprofits) will often have a social service office that may help negotiate a solution (i.e. a repayment contract).

At a private hospital, have to do it on your own and at a fairly high level i.e. Hospital Management.

[Sheryl]

More unhelpful posts have been removed

[atpeace]

10 hours ago, dddave said:

Ambulance services get paid bounties by private hospitals for accident victims though less so for uninsured ones.  I suspect the victim didn't have much choice in the matter.

You could be lying injured in the street in front of a Govt Hosp. and these "Volunteer" ambulance vultures will take you 20 km to the highest bidder.

They do?  Three major accidents in 25 years here and each time was taken to a government hospital.  Is this one of those "all Thais are scammers" stories you created in your demented noggin.  They will take you to a private hospital if you are near one and ind dire need of medical attention.

[atpeace]

6 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Hospital's take advantage of the sick, everyone should know that by now

Private hospitals do because they are a business and therefore have incentives to take advantage of you. 

 

Government hospitals here are pretty good depending on the area.   Phetchabun was terrible but all the others I've spent time in were great if you get a private room.  Phetchabun just had too many people in the ICU and not enough doctors.  Private wasn't an option in Phetchabin anyway. They seem to just want to get you out as soon as possible and aren't concerned about increasing your total bill.  They are so inexpensive that the bills can usually be paid with the money in your wallet or at worst using your ATM with low daily withdrawal limits.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, NativeBob said:

What I saw with my own eyes in Bangkok hospitals - there's not. since 2009 till 2017. 

Are we talking about ISO certified hospitals like Rama IX, Bangkok Hospital, Piyavate, Mario and alike? 

 

I am not sure about all the other Bangkok Hospitals.

Bangkok Hospital in Bangkok, for instance,  has different prices for residents and tourists. Bangkok Pattaya Hospital,  too.

Maybe you didn't notice it.

 

BTW I don't think you can find a not ISO certified hospital in Thailand. 

And there is no Mario Hospital, I guess you mean the former Mayo Hospital (now bought by another chain, it is Paolo Hospital Kaset now)

 

[itsari]

You do not explain how he ended up in a private hospital.

Under the rules that ambulance personnel work under if the person is unconscious they must take the patient to the nearest government hospital  Sadly this does not happen as the ambulance personnel receive a contribution from the private hospitals for delivering a patient.

I had an accident and was taken to a private hospital without my authority as I was unconscious. In the morning I demanded that I be taken to a government hospital. The private hospital gave a bill of 25000 baht for having been in there care for about 6 hours .They recovered that from the motorcycle insurance.

After being taken to the government hospital I was put in a qué for having my broken leg operated on. Cost of the surgery was 30000 baht  plus some charges for the waiting time in hospital.

The government hospital has the best orthopedic surgeons and they moonlight work for private hospitals in the area for a total cost that you could multiply by 10

Be careful , they are out to take a lend of you like your friend.

Luckily when I realised what was happening I insisted on getting out of the private hospital immediately.

 

[NativeBob]

17 minutes ago, atpeace said:

  Is this one of those "all Thais are scammers" stories you created in your demented noggin.  They will take you to a private hospital if you are near one and ind dire need of medical attention.

Anyone has a first hand experience on it? Ok, not first hand - something with close relatives?

 

My ex told me conspiracy theories about Ruam Katanyu Foundation and Por Tek Tung. Total and upper cr*p IMO. I mean why? Those people are religious or rather superstition-driven, funded by donations from similar folks. They are not vultures feeding on misfortunes and accidents. I saw them working with our neighbor's old grandma after minor heart problem. Sure they lack basic medical background but they are very generous and helpful. And they don't look rich too. 

 

Yes, hospitals pay commissions and many travel agencies use it. The whole "medical tourism" based on that %%%.

 

But volunteers? Sad if it's true, but something tells me it is not: "all Thais are NOT scammers"

[atpeace]

4 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

Anyone has a first hand experience on it? Ok, not first hand - something with close relatives?

 

My ex told me conspiracy theories about Ruam Katanyu Foundation and Por Tek Tung. Total and upper cr*p IMO. I mean why? Those people are religious or rather superstition-driven, funded by donations from similar folks. They are not vultures feeding on misfortunes and accidents. I saw them working with our neighbor's old grandma after minor heart problem. Sure they lack basic medical background but they are very generous and helpful. And they don't look rich too. 

 

Yes, hospitals pay commissions and many travel agencies use it. The whole "medical tourism" based on that %%%.

 

But volunteers? Sad if it's true, but something tells me it is not: "all Thais are NOT scammers"

Are all ambulance drivers volunteers?  I think I've been billed for ambulances in the past.  It was very little.  Maybe 500 baht.  Back in in 1998 in America I was billed $1,500 for a 400 meter trip. 

 

I've always been treated fairly here in regards to hospitals but I think some poster from Pataya have made some good points.  It seems anything goes there and that is why it can be a blast but also hellish.

[NativeBob]

27 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Private hospitals do because they are a business and therefore have incentives to take advantage of you. 

I met chinese lady (late 20s) in private hospital where her mother was taken to after minor heart problem. She told me that the bill was astonishing: X-ray, full blood test, room with everything you can imagine cardio-wise, CAT scan, MRT scan, super-duper doctor that didn't speak Mandarin and so on ....
She only wanted her mother to visit Thailand for a short sightseeing >>> they "shaved" her completely. Yes, it is business indeed. Still remember her 15 years later.

Beware of those or get a good insurance.

[NativeBob]

It is hard to live in the country when you think sure that people who might save your life are crooks and scammers, isn't?

 

Long ago the Bizarre magazine posted big article "Body Snatchers" based on urban legends of massive robberies and extortions. Sickening.

Every time we pass Ruam Katanyu Foundation Hua Lamphong Temple (MRT Sam Yan) we drop few hundred baht.

I believe they are nice and humble people.

[bunnydrops]

12 hours ago, ronwel said:

As its a private hospital, is it a private matter between him and the hospital only. Are there guidelines for what to do in a situation like this say in a government hospital.

 

I can only imagine that this happens fairly often, is it just case by case or is there a formality to what he has to do next?

 

Thank you for your comments.

I am fully aware that people will be unwilling to help and that's fine. I thought I would see what's possible.

A few years back a farang I know ended up in the government hospital with no funds to pay his bill. They would not let him leave until the bill was paid. They moved him out of the room he was in with multiple other patients into the hallway with minimum care. His wife put their house up for a loan and got him out. As I understand it they were still adding a little every day for his hall stay.