Grounding from a wall socket/receptacle/outlet: Is it safe?

GammaGlobulin · August 10

Dear Folks,

Do you think this Thai-Style method of grounding might be safe?

Here is the scenario:

a. I live in a house which was built before proper grounded electrical system might have been required by PEA.

b. I assume that there are codes in Thailand which govern the way an electrical system for a house should be installed. However, my house has only two wires leading to the wall sockets, and no third grounding wire. Also, the breaker box or circuit box is not grounded.

c. So here is the thing:

1. I need to use a washing machine in the kitchen.

2. The socket/receptacle has no third grounding wire, even though the socket has a three-way receptacle.

3. The Thai technician intends to run an extra wire from the third grounding point in the receptacle outside the house, and then drive some sort of grounding stake into the ground. And then, this will be declared safely grounded, or so he says.

d. However, it seems to me that this method of providing a "safe" socket for plugging-in of a washing machine might not be up to code.

e. In this house, I also have several ACs. And, each time the installer adds an AC, then the installer just runs a wire outside the house, to a short stake that he has driven into the ground.

f. Now, it seems, that the electrician plans to do the same thing for the washing machine: He will run a wire from the socket outside to a short stake that he will drive into the ground, and call it done.

g. It bothers me that there are more than three grounding points. I.e. There are several ACs all connected to the same electrical CB box, which is not grounded. And, each of these machines has their own separate ground. Really weird.

h. The wall receptacle in the kitchen looks like this:

And, the technician intends, as I have just stated, to run another wire from the ground terminal to an outside grounding point.

i. It just seems to me that if a single house has multiple grounding points, and no ground from the CB, then this might lead to current being passed back and forth willy-nillyl.

j. So, for the purposes of this inquiry:

Does anyone think that it might be OK, for operating a washing machine in a kitchen, to have the ground connected to the third grounding terminal in the wall receptacle where the washing machine will be plugged in???

This is the question.

The Thai electrician says it's fine.

But....

Is it fine?

Tks.

Regards,

Gamma

Important Note: I am just asking for informed opinions here. And, I will not hold anyone liable for providing information that might not be completely up to code.

Edited August 10 by GammaGlobulin

mogandave · August 10

Unless you want to upgrade the whole system, it’s fine.

cjinchiangrai · August 10

Normally all of the ground holes are connected to a stake like that. It will be fine. Put the stake in a damp soil area, like near the waste tank.

sometimewoodworker · August 11

8 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

The Thai electrician says it's fine.

But....

Is it fine?

No it is not. The 3, 4 or many grounding rods can be enough for some unpleasant surprises. Those surprises can kill animals.

However there is a reasonable cure, that is to bond all the rods together so it becomes effectively one and run grounds from there to everything that needs a ground

2baht · August 11

9 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

The Thai electrician says it's fine.

Please explain, in 500 words or less and no more than 7 photos where you actually found a "Thai Electrician"

Edited August 11 by 2baht

steven100 · August 11

mai pen rai .. sabai sabai .. '

ravip · August 11

Hope this would be of some help...

https://www.fluke.com/en/learn/blog/electrical/dont-forget-the-grounding-system

KannikaP · August 11

23 minutes ago, 2baht said:

Please explain, in 500 words or less and no more than 7 photos where you actually found a "Thai Electrician"

38 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

No it is not. The 3, 4 or many grounding rods can be enough for some unpleasant surprises. Those surprises can kill animals.

However there is a reasonable cure, that is to bond all the rods together so it becomes effectively one and run grounds from there to everything that needs a ground

Do you mean to join all the grounding stakes, one for each a/c, now one for the washing machine together, externally with a green/yellow wire? Not very practical if one is at the front of the house and another at the back, with a couple on each side.

I have heard that grounding via the steel frame of the house can be done safely.

The stakes should be at least 2 metres into the damp ground.

Edited August 11 by KannikaP

sometimewoodworker · August 11

39 minutes ago, 2baht said:

Please explain, in 500 words or less and no more than 7 photos where you actually found a "Thai Electrician"

Friend of a friend, he works for the PEA and is studying for EGAT, has more tools than I do, is available to work on weekends from Nong Kai to south of Khon Kaen, he is capable of repairing house hold appliances. I didn’t bother to find more pics these are enough to show he is competent

Edited August 11 by sometimewoodworker

sometimewoodworker · August 11

22 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Do you mean to join all the grounding stakes, one for each a/c, now one for the washing machine together, externally with a green/yellow wire? Not very practical if one is at the front of the house and another at the back, with a couple on each side.

I have heard that grounding via the steel frame of the house can be done safely.

The stakes should be at least 2 metres into the damp ground.

Yes joining all of them together. Correct grounding is better and safer than random unconnected grounds

house grounding is a thing and being required, see Ufer grounding

Edited August 11 by sometimewoodworker

KannikaP · August 11

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Yes joining all of them together.

house grounding is a thing and being required, see Ufer grounding

By House Grounding, do you mean via the steel frame of the house?

Seems the most practical way, to me.

Crossy · August 11

7 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

By House Grounding, do you mean via the steel frame of the house?

Seems the most practical way, to me.

If you have access to the building steel it is certainly an option, it is by no means ideal as the steel isn't intended to be used like that and any interconnection is purely coincidental.

Our roof steel actually tests better than our ground rod! This stood us in good stead when we took a direct hit to our roof not long after we moved in. The only damage was to one of Madams teak barge boards and two ridge tiles 🙂

KannikaP · August 11

23 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Friend of a friend, he works for the PEA and is studying for EGAT, has more tools than I do, is available to work on weekends from Nong Kai to south of Khon Kaen, he is capable of repairing house hold appliances. I didn’t bother to find more pics these are enough to show he is competent

How do your photos show that he is capable of fitting a new on/off switch to my kettle? 555

KannikaP · August 11

10 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Dear Folks,

Do you think this Thai-Style method of grounding might be safe?

Here is the scenario:

a. I live in a house which was built before proper grounded electrical system might have been required by PEA.

b. I assume that there are codes in Thailand which govern the way an electrical system for a house should be installed. However, my house has only two wires leading to the wall sockets, and no third grounding wire. Also, the breaker box or circuit box is not grounded.

c. So here is the thing:

1. I need to use a washing machine in the kitchen.

2. The socket/receptacle has no third grounding wire, even though the socket has a three-way receptacle.

3. The Thai technician intends to run an extra wire from the third grounding point in the receptacle outside the house, and then drive some sort of grounding stake into the ground. And then, this will be declared safely grounded, or so he says.

d. However, it seems to me that this method of providing a "safe" socket for plugging-in of a washing machine might not be up to code.

e. In this house, I also have several ACs. And, each time the installer adds an AC, then the installer just runs a wire outside the house, to a short stake that he has driven into the ground.

f. Now, it seems, that the electrician plans to do the same thing for the washing machine: He will run a wire from the socket outside to a short stake that he will drive into the ground, and call it done.

g. It bothers me that there are more than three grounding points. I.e. There are several ACs all connected to the same electrical CB box, which is not grounded. And, each of these machines has their own separate ground. Really weird.

h. The wall receptacle in the kitchen looks like this:

And, the technician intends, as I have just stated, to run another wire from the ground terminal to an outside grounding point.

i. It just seems to me that if a single house has multiple grounding points, and no ground from the CB, then this might lead to current being passed back and forth willy-nillyl.

j. So, for the purposes of this inquiry:

Does anyone think that it might be OK, for operating a washing machine in a kitchen, to have the ground connected to the third grounding terminal in the wall receptacle where the washing machine will be plugged in???

This is the question.

The Thai electrician says it's fine.

But....

Is it fine?

Tks.

Regards,

Gamma

Important Note: I am just asking for informed opinions here. And, I will not hold anyone liable for providing information that might not be completely up to code.

Earthing electrics,

10 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Dear Folks,

Do you think this Thai-Style method of grounding might be safe?

Here is the scenario:

a. I live in a house which was built before proper grounded electrical system might have been required by PEA.

b. I assume that there are codes in Thailand which govern the way an electrical system for a house should be installed. However, my house has only two wires leading to the wall sockets, and no third grounding wire. Also, the breaker box or circuit box is not grounded.

c. So here is the thing:

1. I need to use a washing machine in the kitchen.

2. The socket/receptacle has no third grounding wire, even though the socket has a three-way receptacle.

3. The Thai technician intends to run an extra wire from the third grounding point in the receptacle outside the house, and then drive some sort of grounding stake into the ground. And then, this will be declared safely grounded, or so he says.

d. However, it seems to me that this method of providing a "safe" socket for plugging-in of a washing machine might not be up to code.

e. In this house, I also have several ACs. And, each time the installer adds an AC, then the installer just runs a wire outside the house, to a short stake that he has driven into the ground.

f. Now, it seems, that the electrician plans to do the same thing for the washing machine: He will run a wire from the socket outside to a short stake that he will drive into the ground, and call it done.

g. It bothers me that there are more than three grounding points. I.e. There are several ACs all connected to the same electrical CB box, which is not grounded. And, each of these machines has their own separate ground. Really weird.

h. The wall receptacle in the kitchen looks like this:

And, the technician intends, as I have just stated, to run another wire from the ground terminal to an outside grounding point.

i. It just seems to me that if a single house has multiple grounding points, and no ground from the CB, then this might lead to current being passed back and forth willy-nillyl.

j. So, for the purposes of this inquiry:

Does anyone think that it might be OK, for operating a washing machine in a kitchen, to have the ground connected to the third grounding terminal in the wall receptacle where the washing machine will be plugged in???

This is the question.

The Thai electrician says it's fine.

But....

Is it fine?

Tks.

Regards,

Gamma

Important Note: I am just asking for informed opinions here. And, I will not hold anyone liable for providing information that might not be completely up to code.

Earthing your electrics, taking life seriously and clairvoyancy, all in less than 24 hours. Are you trying to tell us something?

sandyf · August 11

10 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

The Thai electrician says it's fine.

But....

Is it fine?

Local grounding is a fairly common practice, but like most things in this life quality has a role to play. My water pumps came with a 2 core cable and a piece of green/yellow wire attached to the casing.

If you are concerned the best bet would be to have a main earth point established and that wired to the consumer unit and all outlets/appliances. I suspect from the age your wiring is on the surface, they just run the earth wire alongside the existing cables and into the outlets. Seen it done in other properties and shouldn't be particularly expensive.

Banana7 · August 11

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Yes joining all of them together. Correct grounding is better and safer than random unconnected grounds

house grounding is a thing and being required, see Ufer grounding

I also recommend that at least one rod is 1 meter long, solid copper, and driven down below ground surface, if possible, damp soil.

sometimewoodworker · August 11

36 minutes ago, Banana7 said:

I also recommend that at least one rod is 1 meter long, solid copper, and driven down below ground surface, if possible, damp soil.

It should be 2 meters long

sometimewoodworker · August 11

1 hour ago, KannikaP said:

How do your photos show that he is capable of fitting a new on/off switch to my kettle? 555

It doesn’t, you would find it cheaper to buy a new one.
I can show you a picture of a 10,000 baht induction hob he repaired, but of course it proves nothing.

Inexpensive appliances are usually not worth repairing more expensive ones are.

sometimewoodworker · August 11

1 hour ago, KannikaP said:

By House Grounding, do you mean via the steel frame of the house?

Seems the most practical way, to me.

Did you read up on Ufer Grounding?

KannikaP · August 11

37 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Did you read up on Ufer Grounding?

Yes I did, but did not really understand. It is an iron/steel rod embedded into the concrete ground slab of your house, into which the rebars of the supporting columns' rebars are connected, no?

The rebars in all columns of my house go into concrete blocks, so would that suffice if the ground cable from my fuse box were connected to one of them please?

By the way, I do have earthed sockets throughout my house, with a thick cable connecting to a 2 metre steel pole driven into the ground.

sometimewoodworker · August 11

14 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Yes I did, but did not really understand. It is an iron/steel rod embedded into the concrete ground slab of your house, into which the rebars of the supporting columns' rebars are connected, no?

The rebars in all columns of my house go into concrete blocks, so would that suffice if the ground cable from my fuse box were connected to one of them please?

By the way, I do have earthed sockets throughout my house, with a thick cable connecting to a 2 metre steel pole driven into the ground.

@Crossy

has stated that his Ufer Ground (if he connects it) is better than his ground rod.

as you already have grounding adding a building steel connection may be a good idea, in the USA many states require it. I am competent to work on my house, I won’t tell you what to do with yours .

Edited August 11 by sometimewoodworker

stubuzz · August 11

12 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

It just seems to me that if a single house has multiple grounding points, and no ground from the CB, then this might lead to current being passed back and forth willy-nillyl.

Post a picture of your open CB. Does it have a safety cut or RCBO's?

GammaGlobulin · August 11

6 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

No it is not. The 3, 4 or many grounding rods can be enough for some unpleasant surprises. Those surprises can kill animals.

However there is a reasonable cure, that is to bond all the rods together so it becomes effectively one and run grounds from there to everything that needs a ground

Yes.

This is what I was worried about.

And this is the reason I posted this Topic.

It seems to me that when using one path to ground on one side of the house, and then two others located at other points, this can lead to current going from one point to another, when this is not intended.

So then, the question becomes...

How to explain this to Somchai who wants to do the installation.

Also, how to explain it to the home owner, since this is a rental.

Of Course: I realize that my worry might have been unwarranted. And, my understanding not valid. Therefore, I just wanted a few more opinions about this topic, which seems to come up rather frequently. I have read the various questions posted in the past, but did not find one that addressed this issue specifically.

Edited August 11 by GammaGlobulin

GammaGlobulin · August 11

2 hours ago, stubuzz said:

Post a picture of your open CB. Does it have a safety cut or RCBO's?

I will post a photo tomorrow, when I have access.

GammaGlobulin · August 11

5 hours ago, ravip said:

Hope this would be of some help...

https://www.fluke.com/en/learn/blog/electrical/dont-forget-the-grounding-system

Yes.

Excellent article.

Tks.

Yellowtail · August 11

Ground rods are typically copper-clad steel, not solid copper. First, copper is expensive, and second, it's much too soft to drive into hard ground.

daveAustin · August 11

Have seen local sparkies drive a nail into the wall-floor in a condo to sort washing machines (which must be grounded aside from the obvious as the drum will induce juice and give you a mild pisser) and it's worked fine. Wouldn't recommend it though. :shock1:

sandyf · August 11

2 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

Also, how to explain it to the home owner, since this is a rental.

You ought to have said that in the beginning.

Hopefully he may agree to improvements but I suspect unlikely, after all Thai tenants are not going to say anything.

sometimewoodworker · August 11

3 hours ago, GammaGlobulin said:

How to explain this to Somchai who wants to do the installation.

Don’t try to explain. Tell him what you want, that if he wants the job he does it your way and watch to see that he does what you want.

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