Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, Unamerican said:

 

That's assuming one pays tax in a DTA home country, if not a DTA wont be of any use.

[lordgrinz]

We should be taxed based on our citizenship status, we can then file our taxes to whatever home country we hold citizenship. Then let the respective governments transfer taxes (if any) we pay to the host countries, let them fight over it without inconveniencing us. If the host countries want us to pay their taxes, then they can fight over giving us citizenship by offering us incentives. We'll call it the free market.

[Dogmatix]

The big problem with DTAs in all of this is that what is written in them is just a bare bones guideline for how countries tax overseas income of residents.  European countries have had global taxation and applied their DTAs to it for many years in respect of the millions of European expats living in other European countries.  Generally the DTAs say that most types of income may be taxed in either the country of the taxpayer's residence or in the country where the income arises.  The European tax authorities are staffed by grown ups and have worked out practical gentlemen's agreements over the years on how to apply these treaties.  Mostly they have applied the principle that, if income has been subjected to tax in the country it arose, the country of taxpayer residence will not attempt to tax it again and collect the difference, if their rate is higher.  This principle is often still respected in cases where the income was subject to tax in the country it arose but not taxed.  On the basis of swings and round abouts these tax authorities save a lot of trouble for themselves and taxpayers and probably don't lose any revenue.   

 

The Thai RD, on the other hand, is not staffed by grown ups who have any experience of the practical application of DTAs.  What little they have said about how they plan to apply just the remittance tax has been largely incoherent and contradictory but one point comes through clearly.  That is that they plan to collect every last satang they can based on the exact letter of the DTAs.  So that in all cases where the treaties say they may tax income income, they will, even if the income is already subject to tax in its country of origin.  This will create huge problems for taxpayers and for the generally ignorant, poorly trained and monoglot RD staff in order to collect very little incremental tax. If they were sensible they would just focus on overseas income that is not subject to tax and there is plenty of it, including capital gains on shares traded in offshore markets which are generally not subject to tax for non-residents.   

[wmlc]

I am so tired of this scare mongering. Does everyone see what is going on here? Post a story about tax, get a ton of unhappy expats moaning and then nothing happens. No enforcement. Get on with it already. 

 

The only thing here that matters is enforcement. No matter what the tax law is or is going to be, if the Thai government does nothing to enforce it, they can keep whistling dixie for all I care. 

 

The 180 day rule has never been enforced. It has always been a law. Then, in January 2024, they changed what is included in accessible income and everyone started moaning, but guess what, they still have n to announced any enforcement guidelines. For example, let's just say immigration were asked to start asking for proof personal income tax being filed in Thailand for qualified tax residents, something like that would need time to pass and implement. No word yet right? its almost December. 

 

Bullocks.

 

 

[itsari]

1 hour ago, Unamerican said:

Are you sure that we are all so poor?? 

I think the man is correct in assuming the large majority of foreign residence in Thailand are in the bracket he mentioned.

Considering the average income in Thailand the majority in that bracket of income would not be considered poor in Thailand. 

 

[wmlc]

I am so tired of this scare mongering. Does everyone see what is going on here? Post a story about tax, get a ton of unhappy expats moaning and then nothing happens. No enforcement. Get on with it already. 

 

The only thing here that matters is enforcement. No matter what the tax law is or is going to be, if the Thai government does nothing to enforce it, they can keep whistling dixie for all I care. 

 

The 180 day rule has never been enforced. It has always been a law. Then, in January 2024, they changed what is included in accessible income and everyone started moaning, but guess what, they still have not announced any enforcement guidelines. For example, let's just say immigration were asked to start asking for proof personal income tax being filed in Thailand for qualified tax residents when their retirement visas were being renewed. Something like that would need time to pass and implement. No word yet right? It is almost December. 

 

Bullocks.

Edited September 9 by wmlc

[wmlc]

On 9/8/2024 at 6:09 AM, mokwit said:

So what do we get in return for this greedy grab?  I see in uptick in airport departure tax collections.

 

Do you really think immigration will be able to manage this? How long will the departure question be at immigration if this happened. Be realistic. I don't believe any of this nonsense will ever be enforced on foreigners over and above what is being enforced now. For example, it's only enforced now when you renew your extension of stay based on working and when you renew your work permit. 

[bkk_mike]

18 hours ago, Chris Daley said:

This news makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.  Knowing that most of the users on here will have to pay taxes like the rest of us.  I come here and work hard for my money.  Welcome to the real Thailand.

Hate to annoy you, but most of my pension is in Hong Kong, and the DTA means Thailand can't touch it.

[Dogmatix]

1 minute ago, wmlc said:

I am so tired of this scare mongering. Does everyone see what is going on here? Post a story about tax, get a ton of unhappy expats moaning and then nothing happens. No enforcement. Get on with it already. 

 

The only thing here that matters is enforcement. No matter what the tax law is or is going to be, if the Thai government does nothing to enforce it, they can keep whistling dixie for all I care. 

 

The 180 day rule has never been enforced. It has always been a law. Then, in January 2024, they changed what is included in accessible income and everyone started moaning, but guess what, they still have n to announced any enforcement guidelines. For example, let's just say immigration were asked to start asking for proof personal income tax being filed in Thailand for qualified tax residents, something like that would need time to pass and implement. No word yet right? its almost December. 

 

Bullocks.

 

The RD has to coordinate with the police to come up with rules linking visas to tax returns.  This takes some time but it will probably happen eventually as it is a no brainer for them.  It has been in place for years for NON-O visas linked to work permits.  So it should not be hard.  There is already existing but dormant regulation requiring tax clearance certificates for foreigners to leave the country.  The police just have to issue an internal order to enforce this once again, if they feel like it.  We used to have to send a messenger to the RD to get this certificate to show that all tax was paid up-to-date.

[wmlc]

2 minutes ago, bkk_mike said:

Hate to annoy you, but most of my pension is in Hong Kong, and the DTA means Thailand can't touch it.

That may be true. But what you and others here don't seem to understand is that then law that has laws been in place deals with only what bis accessible income and who has to file. First check the revenue code to see if your pension is exempt. Then if you want to be a good boy, Gert a tax ID and file. The DTA only helps you determine if you have to pay Thailand or not. The point is that technically you need to file. Most of the expats moaning probably won't have to pay 1 Baht.  However, until we know about enforcement, are you going to voluntarily file?

 

Three of my clients denied tax IDs because the revenue dept said its was not needed. Then you have the expat in that mist recent you tube video charging expats 7000 Baht for a tax ID. 

 

Wait and see about enforcement. 

[Ebumbu]

If I'm already taxed in the US, I believe there's a treaty against double taxation in Thailand, no? So, I think Thailand can only tax the "foreign earned income" part of my income, which is exempt fro US taxes. Am I on the wrong track? Anyway, I've bookmarked a couple Bangkok accounting firms. There will be loopholes just like there are with visas. 

I'm not giving Thai authorities access to my US bank accounts. Can they demand to see my US tax returns? Wonder how they will implement and manage this giant scheme. Spending half the year in Vietnam would be a gigantic pain.

[ianthebrit]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:16 PM, Pouatchee said:

happy days... not

so now the nightmare begins

 

 

so now they will have access to our home records... big brother... reallyyyy. 

 

double taxation? these matters really need to be cleared up and imho double taxation is just plain wrong... hope tere will be provisions blocking this.

 

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!!!

 

[JimGant]

On 9/8/2024 at 10:54 AM, Kerryd said:

Now remember - if your pension is taxed in your home country, they are not supposed to be allowed to tax it again in Thailand regardless of how much you get (dependent on the clauses in your tax treaty - if any).
But it still counts towards your "total income".

Wrong. It's total ASSESSABLE income. If your DTA says your home country pension is not assessable by Thailand, it will, then, just be a missing number on your Thai tax return. If all or most of your worldwide income is not assessable by Thailand per DTA, then you don't even need to file a tax return.

[itsari]

3 minutes ago, wmlc said:

 

Do you really think immigration will be able to manage this? How long will the departure question be at immigration if this happened. Be realistic. I don't believe any of this nonsense will ever be enforced on foreigners over and above what is being enforced now. For example, it's only enforced now when you renew your extension of stay based on working and when you renew your work permit. 

I agree they could not manage since you are asking .

The only people ready to manage is the opportunistic lawyers and the come lately accountants.

[wmlc]

4 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

The RD has to coordinate with the police to come up with rules linking visas to tax returns.  This takes some time but it will probably happen eventually as it is a no brainer for them.  It has been in place for years for NON-O visas linked to work permits.  So it should not be hard.  There is already existing but dormant regulation requiring tax clearance certificates for foreigners to leave the country.  The police just have to issue an internal order to enforce this once again, if they feel like it.  We used to have to send a messenger to the RD to get this certificate to show that all tax was paid up-to-date.

Correct if you have a work permit. For retirees, I doubt they will enforce it. 

Edited September 9 by wmlc

[James105]

7 minutes ago, wmlc said:

I am so tired of this scare mongering. Does everyone see what is going on here? Post a story about tax, get a ton of unhappy expats moaning and then nothing happens. No enforcement. Get on with it already. 

 

The only thing here that matters is enforcement. No matter what the tax law is or is going to be, if the Thai government does nothing to enforce it, they can keep whistling dixie for all I care. 

 

The 180 day rule has never been enforced. It has always been a law. Then, in January 2024, they changed what is included in accessible income and everyone started moaning, but guess what, they still have not announced any enforcement guidelines. For example, let's just say immigration were asked to start asking for proof personal income tax being filed in Thailand for qualified tax residents when their retirement visas were being renewed. Something like that would need time to pass and implement. No word yet right? It is almost December. 

 

Bullocks.

 

Yeah, I saw the headline, had a mild panic and then realised it:

1) Isn't actually happening

2) Probably won't happen

3) If it does happen it will be impossible to enforce

4) If it does happen and they do manage to find a way to enforce it I'll just leave.  I doubt that will be anytime prior to 2040 though so plenty of time to prepare.   

[wmlc]

1 minute ago, itsari said:

I agree they could not manage since you are asking .

The only people ready to manage is the opportunistic lawyers and the come lately accountants.

Lol correct. The one guy charging 7000 Baht to get your tax ID from that you tube video, We charge 2000 Baht. it is so easy to do. You don't even need a lawyer for that. 

[wmlc]

4 minutes ago, Ebumbu said:

If I'm already taxed in the US, I believe there's a treaty against double taxation in Thailand, no? So, I think Thailand can only tax the "foreign earned income" part of my income, which is exempt fro US taxes. Am I on the wrong track? Anyway, I've bookmarked a couple Bangkok accounting firms. There will be loopholes just like there are with visas. 

I'm not giving Thai authorities access to my US bank accounts. Can they demand to see my US tax returns? Wonder how they will implement and manage this giant scheme. Spending half the year in Vietnam would be a gigantic pain.

They won't.

[Wrwest]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:34 PM, NoDisplayName said:

It's bad enough I have to pay tax on interstellar/multi-dimensional income to Uncle Sam for life, but Thailand wants a cut also?

 

I ran the numbers.........I manage my finances to remain at the zero tax limit in the USA, which will result in $10,000 paid annually to Thailand.  All capital gains are taxed as normal income with no offset for capital losses.

 

I don't think so.  How do you say 'hello' in Khmer?

And so, you think the current tax treaty will be unilaterally ignored by Thailand?

[ianthebrit]

Might be worth a look, Thailand is not the place for me, you  can’t even own a house here but you can pay tax on a house that was sold in your own country, that’s bizarre 

[itsari]

2 minutes ago, wmlc said:

Lol correct. The one guy charging 7000 Baht to get your tax ID from that you tube video, We charge 2000 Baht. it is so easy to do. You don't even need a lawyer for that. 

You got of light , i had one foreign man qouting 12000 baht

If you called the reaction from the Thai tax authorities announcements as hysteria it would not be an excaggeration.

[Wrwest]

On 9/7/2024 at 10:39 PM, biervoormij said:

I do the same with my US taxes. When I have run my numbers it will be a little less than $10,000 but high enough I will most likely leave Thailand. I hope they give me a year to spend down the 800K setting in my bank before I leave.

 

Doesn't Cambodia also have global income tax or are you just planning on spending half the year there?

So, I stay exactly how many days spending income in Thailand? Exit to spend in another country how many days? Return and repeat? Ah, 180 days total, not necessarily consecutive days, right?

[nickmondo]

So if I stay here 180 days a year, I am classed as Thai resident and they will tax my worldwide income.

So what about the fact that I stay in the UK for 185 days of that same year, which makes me a resident there, and the UK taxes my Worldwide income.

Ths is all b.s., and Im not playing.

already done my planning, I will not stay in Thailand more than 179 days a year.

Even if they dont bring in this stupid rule.............my patience is exhausted now with their rules changing all the bloody time

[mokwit]

18 minutes ago, wmlc said:

 

Do you really think immigration will be able to manage this? How long will the departure question be at immigration if this happened. Be realistic. I don't believe any of this nonsense will ever be enforced on foreigners over and above what is being enforced now. For example, it's only enforced now when you renew your extension of stay based on working and when you renew your work permit. 

My poor wording maybe, I was suggesting the only tax they would collect was the airport tax from people leaving Thailand in response.

 

It can't be ruled out It may be enforced at extension time for other 1 year visa classes by requiring some form of proof of filing or payment. They would not assess your tax, just require proof from RD as they do now for 1 year work for work permit.

 

[Celsius]

I think all this is being done not necessarily to get big money from taxing the foreigners, but to create more bureaucracy and more paper shuffling jobs for Thais. The additional GDP from just needing to file your tax return will be awesome for Thailand. Personally I will not play that game. To me countries are just like stock market bubbles. Everyone is complaining about how s$$ Canada is, but I think it's a great time to move back. Free money from Libs, free healthcare and soon free dental. Many benefits if your income is below certain level. The young generation Zombies can leave for greener pastures bring influenced by YouTubers from Thailand who mostly like to tell lies. oh look at my chicken farm condo and nice facilities and my 22sqm room. Oh look at that great Thai food slop mostly cooked in oil that hasn't been changed in weeks. oh but everything is so much cheaper in Thailand until you get sick and suddenly that cheap expat insurance you bought proves to be useless.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

As far as assets are concerned, It only becomes income when you sell.

 

The above said, I live off of buying and selling shares in my home country as I am a non resident for tax purposes. The tax is already taken out by the company when I sell my shares, also, there is no capital gains tax payable for non residents in my home country.

 

I am going to seriously going to have to look into:

 

A) Not selling any of my shares in the foreseeable future.

 

B) Becoming a resident of my home country for tax purposes which wouldn't be hard to do.

 

(C Move to a neighboring country for 6 months of the year that doesn't tax you on your income or worldwide income.

 

Either way, any of the above will be a loss to Thailand, because I don't think people will accept this, i.e. unless they are weak, so to speak.

 

People power speaks in volumes.

 

[NoDisplayName]

5 minutes ago, Wrwest said:

And so, you think the current tax treaty will be unilaterally ignored by Thailand?

 

That has nothing to do with tax treaty. 

 

The IRS offers a standard deduction and special rates for long term capital gains.  Thailand does not recognize these US-specific allowances, and will tax on a higher base income.............for these two items up to $60K higher, which at Thai tax rates will result in a $10K tax liability in Thailand.

 

Thailand also does not recognize IRS rules allowing the offset of capital losses against capital gains, so once again the tax will be on a higher base income.....potentially tens of thousands of dollars higher.

[Wrwest]

On 9/8/2024 at 4:30 AM, Mike Teavee said:

CRS (Common Reporting Standard) means they already have that information. 

 

 

I'm thinking not so ... there is hell to pay to get private US citizen tax records.

[Captain Monday]

6 minutes ago, Wrwest said:

So, I stay exactly how many days spending income in Thailand? Exit to spend in another country how many days? Return and repeat? Ah, 180 days total, not necessarily consecutive days, right?

Consecutively is not the issue. Just don't spend 180 days in Thailand.

Simples. Travel more.

Japan , Korea, Singapore, Switzerland. The whole world of hotels and AirBnb awaits you and your backpack.

 

 

[Will B Good]

14 minutes ago, ianthebrit said:

Might be worth a look, Thailand is not the place for me, you  can’t even own a house here but you can pay tax on a house that was sold in your own country, that’s bizarre 

 

 

Wow...so this guy is very explicit.....ATM money is tax free....period.