Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[Mason45]

7 minutes ago, gearbox said:

Even the tax office in your home country probably doesn't have detailed transaction information, and normally they don't care. All they need is how much interest you earned and any other type of income you got. Most of this info is also  provided via CRS to countries where you are tax resident.

How do I know if I'm a tax resident in Thailand?  If they check me out they'll get one hell of a shock seeing how little I spend annually. I'm now 80 yo, no bar girls, I never go to bars even for a drink but I have a large fridge full of very healthy food. I'm exempt from paying any tax in Australia. Actually I'm  see this as a wait and see situation because it woudn't be the first brain fart that went arse up here.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Mason45 said:

How do I know if I'm a tax resident in Thailand?  If they check me out they'll get one hell of a shock seeing how little I spend annually. I'm now 80 yo, no bar girls, I never go to bars even for a drink but I have a large fridge full of very healthy food. I'm exempt from paying any tax in Australia. Actually I'm  see this as a wait and see situation because it woudn't be the first brain fart that went arse up here.

If you spend a cumulative 180 days or more per calendar year in Thailand, you are tax resident.

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You're scaremongering without any basis in fact or current reality, you're hypothesising to scare people. Why do you care, you've already said you won't be tax resident.

It's fairly obvious that if a Farang in the village is going to be required to file a Thai tax return for their worldwide income:

 

Many won't file, due to ignorance and/or disbelief that this will be enforced.

 

When they are called into TRD, they are going to be at the mercy of Somchai, and that will not end well. 

 

This is Thailand.

[Danderman123]

Just now, chiang mai said:

If you spend 1a cumulative 80 days or more per calendar year in Thailand, you are tax resident.

You mean 180 cumulative days.

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, Mason45 said:

How do I know if I'm a tax resident in Thailand?  If they check me out they'll get one hell of a shock seeing how little I spend annually. I'm now 80 yo, no bar girls, I never go to bars even for a drink but I have a large fridge full of very healthy food. I'm exempt from paying any tax in Australia. Actually I'm  see this as a wait and see situation because it woudn't be the first brain fart that went arse up here.

How does TRD know that you are tax exempt without auditing your foreign bank statements?

 

If you are called into TRD and Somchai is determined to audit you, how is that going to work out?

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

It's fairly obvious that if a Farang in the village is going to be required to file a Thai tax return for their worldwide income:

 

Many won't file, due to ignorance and/or disbelief that this will be enforced.

 

When they are called into TRD, they are going to be at the mercy of Somchai, and that will not end well. 

 

This is Thailand.

Then they will find out in due course, that is the price they pay for locking themselves away from the English speaking world and not staying current with important events in their adopted country of choice..

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

You mean 180 cumulative days.

You jumped on that pretty sharpish, I made the change 10 seconds after I posted it!

[Danderman123]

Just now, chiang mai said:

Then they will find out in due course, that is the price they pay for locking themselves away from the English speaking world and not staying current with important events in their adopted country of choice..

Multiply that sad experience by 100,000, and it's the end of the Farang paradise in Thailand.

 

But why isn't remitted income from besotted Farangs to bar girls considered assessable income by TRD?

[chiang mai]

Just now, Danderman123 said:

Multiply that sad experience by 100,000, and it's the end of the Farang paradise in Thailand.

 

But why isn't remitted income from besotted Farangs to bar girls considered assessable income by TRD?

Stop it!!!

 

One third of the foreigner population in Thailand is NOT locked away in remote villages, without communications and an awareness of what's going on.

 

How do you know those bar girls don't report that income....I've already said that once in to you in the last hour but you keep asking the same question over again.

[Mason45]

If Thai people moved to foreign countries and copped what we have to put up with here, they would scream racial discrimination and would win every time. Being married to a Thai really opens a can of worms. If we knew were would stood in Thailand many of us wouldn't of got married and moved on to a country that accepts us.

[Mason45]

8 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If you spend a cumulative 180 days or more per calendar year in Thailand, you are tax resident.

Thanks CM.

[gearbox]

10 minutes ago, Mason45 said:

How do I know if I'm a tax resident in Thailand?  If they check me out they'll get one hell of a shock seeing how little I spend annually. I'm now 80 yo, no bar girls, I never go to bars even for a drink but I have a large fridge full of very healthy food. I'm exempt from paying any tax in Australia. Actually I'm  see this as a wait and see situation because it woudn't be the first brain fart that went arse up here.

That's a very good question, you won't know if you are tax resident unless you have spent 180+ days in the calendar year already. If someone asks me if I'm a tax resident if Thailand for fiscal year 2024 I would answer that I don't know, I've been outside Thailand for nearly 4 months already, and going away soon for nearly 2 months. I would know if I'm a tax resident somewhere around mid December. So if an Aussie bank in the meantime asks me if I'm a tax resident somewhere my answer would be no.

[gearbox]

10 minutes ago, Mason45 said:

If Thai people moved to foreign countries and copped what we have to put up with here, they would scream racial discrimination and would win every time. Being married to a Thai really opens a can of worms. If we knew were would stood in Thailand many of us wouldn't of got married and moved on to a country that accepts us.

Worldwide income taxation is becoming pretty standard practice. Look at the governments, they up to the neck in debt. They would chase any money available, sometimes sacrificing future income in order to raise revenue.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, gearbox said:

That's a very good question, you won't know if you are tax resident unless you have spent 180+ days in the calendar year already. If someone asks me if I'm a tax resident if Thailand for fiscal year 2024 I would answer that I don't know, I've been outside Thailand for nearly 4 months already, and going away soon for nearly 2 months. I would know if I'm a tax resident somewhere around mid December. So if an Aussie bank in the meantime asks me if I'm a tax resident somewhere my answer would be no.

Counting days between stamps in a passport is not rocket science, most people would want to know in advance in order to manage whether they wanted to become tax resident or not.

[MarkBR]

9 hours ago, grain said:

That's how I see it too. If after 180 days we become classified as "residents" and start to pay tax, then issue us all with a resident ID card, to distinguish us from tourists and travelers. The card doesn't give us rights to Thai citizenship or to own property or anything like that, but the card gets us the Thai price at gov hospitals to see a doc and get meds, and the card gets us Thai price admission at national parks and historical sites. Because as tax payers we will be contributing towards these things.

Do you think the Thai Revenue Department cares?  Do you think the Thai government cares?

[Danderman123]

12 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Stop it!!!

 

One third of the foreigner population in Thailand is NOT locked away in remote villages, without communications and an awareness of what's going on.

 

How do you know those bar girls don't report that income....I've already said that once in to you in the last hour but you keep asking the same question over again.

I don't know any bar girls who would have a clue how to file a tax return. They did pay taxes when they worked in the factory, but that was done for them.

 

 

Certainly, TRD does not take a chunk of their remittances, I have seen them.

 

I am traveling this year, so as not to be a tax resident. When I relate this to the Thai lady I am traveling with, they have no clue about Thai taxation.

 

I think you are a bit out of touch with the facts on the ground, except maybe for those Farangs who work in Thailand and thus have a tax return filed for them.

[Danderman123]

11 minutes ago, gearbox said:

That's a very good question, you won't know if you are tax resident unless you have spent 180+ days in the calendar year already. If someone asks me if I'm a tax resident if Thailand for fiscal year 2024 I would answer that I don't know, I've been outside Thailand for nearly 4 months already, and going away soon for nearly 2 months. I would know if I'm a tax resident somewhere around mid December. So if an Aussie bank in the meantime asks me if I'm a tax resident somewhere my answer would be no.

I count the days per month I spend in Thailand, and how many more days I can spend in Thailand without becoming a tax resident.

 

As of October 10, I will have 59 more Thai days.

[Mason45]

Thais must think that farangs don't pay tax. We pay tax on everything that we purchase daily. What the service providers do with that money is another issue. The fact is we do spend more money daily than the average Thai also means we pay more tax with no benefits.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

I don't know any bar girls who would have a clue how to file a tax return. They did pay taxes when they worked in the factory, but that was done for them.

 

 

Certainly, TRD does not take a chunk of their remittances, I have seen them.

 

I am traveling this year, so as not to be a tax resident. When I relate this to the Thai lady I am traveling with, they have no clue about Thai taxation.

 

I think you are a bit out of touch with the facts on the ground, except maybe for those Farangs who work in Thailand and thus have a tax return filed for them.

If by being out of touch you imply that I don't know lots of bar girls being supported by farangs, you're right! But I've never worked in Thailand and I've been filing tax returns here for two decades. 

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

If by being out of touch you imply that I don't know lots of bar girls being supported by farangs, you're right! But I've never worked in Thailand and I've been filing tax returns here for two decades. 

You are what is known as an "outlier".

 

Do you have a visa that requires a tax return? Or do you file for fun?

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Mason45 said:

Thais must think that farangs don't pay tax. We pay tax on everything that we purchase daily. What the service providers do with that money is another issue. The fact is we do spend more money daily than the average Thai also means we pay more tax with no benefits.

You're referring to indirect taxes, which everyone in the country pays, residents, nationals, foreigners, tourists and illegals. The tax that's being discussed here is direct tax or income tax, a totally different animal.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, gamb00ler said:

If Thailand does move to worldwide income taxation, this is how I see the impact on US Roth accounts.

 

Since Thailand doesn't see a Roth account as differing from a regular investment/savings account, it will be taxed in the same manner.

 

Roth contributions and investment income prior to Jan 1, 2024 would always be treated as non-assessable in by TRD. 

 

The only difference from the current situation is that Roth income post Jan. 1 would become annual assessable income to TRD.

 

There should be no taxable event when a qualified Roth withdrawal is made.  The income inside a Roth would incur Thai tax annually, so no separate tax upon withdrawal.

In that case, if you didn't touch it the only income would be dividends.

If you sold funds within the account, that would be a profit or loss.

If your theory is correct, that might indicate the withdrawals from traditional IRAs wouldn't Thai tax events either.

At this point I'm not so much worried about the tax liability, as how much time I will need to take and money to spend on "tax advisors" who will probably all have different opinions.

This is extremely annoying. 

I can't even imagine that Thai tax law will address every weird angle of every type of financial activity of every nation in the world.

More likely they'll throw this half baked stuff out there and watch us scramble like headless chickens.

I'm too invested here at this point -- but I will say to others: DO NOT COME. 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

36 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

 

 

But why isn't remitted income from besotted Farangs to bar girls considered assessable income by TRD?

 

36 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

 

 

But why isn't remitted income from besotted Farangs to bar girls considered assessable income by TRD?

 

If it is a gift, it isn't taxable income to the bargirl. If it is for "services rendered" then it would potentially be taxable income to the bargirl. I have no idea how the TRD would determine the latter.

 

If the the funds are remitted from abroad by someone who is tax resident in Thailand, then the funds may be taxable income for the remitter depending upon the source of funds, timing, etc. 

[nakhonandy]

I know this is a worry for many.

 

However I can't see this actually becoming law. For one, too many rich Thai have large investments overseas, they will fight this tooth and nail.

 

Also, at least in the short term, nothing is planned for parliament and these changes to the tax law would need parliament debate and approval. 

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, nakhonandy said:

I know this is a worry for many.

 

However I can't see this actually becoming law. For one, too many rich Thai have large investments overseas, they will fight this tooth and nail.

 

Also, at least in the short term, nothing is planned for parliament and these changes to the tax law would need parliament debate and approval. 

 

If we can get past January 1st without it being passed, then I would think that would negate 2025 as a start date for any World Wide income tax. For now that is what I am hoping for, but still have to deal with remittances issues.

[gamb00ler]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

In that case, if you didn't touch it the only income would be dividends.

If you sold funds within the account, that would be a profit or loss.

If your theory is correct, that might indicate the withdrawals from traditional IRAs wouldn't Thai tax events either.

TRD also doesn't recognize the special status the US tax code gives to IRA's, 401k's, HSA's and other special tax deferred accounts. 

 

My opinion is:

 

If Thailand does move to worldwide income taxation all those "special" US accounts will be treated as ordinary savings/investment accounts where TRD will consider income earned will be assessable in the tax year that it is earned.  So, yes withdrawals will include only money that TRD has already taxed.

[ukrules]

48 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

But why isn't remitted income from besotted Farangs to bar girls considered assessable income by TRD?

 

What makes you think it isn't? This is the first year of the remittance change and nobody can file a tax return until next year.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 hour ago, gearbox said:

The private super in pension phase is not taxable at all, this is valid for both income stream received and the earnings of the fund.

 

I'm planning to start receiving super pension from July next year, and if the worldwide tax is implemented I'll get a hefty tax bill. The only sure way to avoid it is to stay less than 180 days in Thailand.

 

In the DTA there is a breaker rule that if you are resident of both countries you pay tax where the income is generated, but I won't rely on the taxman in Nakhon Nowhere to interpret this properly. As it stands right now I'm a tax resident of both countries.

Agreed. It would surely be bizarre to have to pay tax in Thailand on hard earned super payments that are tax free in Australia. Because a big chunk of mine is specifically excluded in the double tax agreement I might be in a position to simply simply leave it out. Who knows how it would work. Field day for tax accountants. 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

5 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

TRD also doesn't recognize the special status the US tax code gives to IRA's, 401k's, HSA's and other special tax deferred accounts. 

 

My opinion is:

 

If Thailand does move to worldwide income taxation all those "special" US accounts will be treated as ordinary savings/investment accounts where TRD will consider income earned will be assessable in the tax year that it is earned.  So, yes withdrawals will include only money that TRD has already taxed.

 

I'n a bit more optimistic in that, but I do see your point.  I think the TRD will recognize these accounts as self-directed pensions and that any income within the account isn't taxable. only distributions. 

[JackGats]

46 minutes ago, gearbox said:

That's a very good question, you won't know if you are tax resident unless you have spent 180+ days in the calendar year already. If someone asks me if I'm a tax resident if Thailand for fiscal year 2024 I would answer that I don't know, I've been outside Thailand for nearly 4 months already, and going away soon for nearly 2 months. I would know if I'm a tax resident somewhere around mid December. So if an Aussie bank in the meantime asks me if I'm a tax resident somewhere my answer would be no.

Methinks when the tax man or a bank asks if and where you're a tax resident, the question always refers to previous tax years. Otherwise the question cannot yet be answered.