8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

To be clear, TRD regs. require tax residents to acquire a TIN, within 60 days of exceeding the minimum assessable threshold.

 

84) Before you can file a tax return in Thailand, you must obtain a Tax Identification Number or TIN from the RD offices in your area. You are required by law to obtain a TIN, within 60 days from when you first derive the minimum assessable income, which is 120,000 baht of income received from overseas, after becoming tax resident. For long stay residents that will be a minimum of 180 days plus 60 days in country, in the same tax year. The Thai ID card number serves as the TIN for the local population. It is not necessary for people who are not Thai tax resident to obtain a TIN, neither is it necessary to obtain one if you do not exceed the assessable income level threshold. 

 

 

Hello Mike,

My apologies in advance if my question is dumb, however lets say I transfered X amount of assesable income in June, at which point I've only spend 140 days in the country.

If I spend more than 180 days in the country this year making me a tax resident, would I need to pay tax on that money even though when I transfered it I was not a tax resident yet (At that exact point in time)?

Or it will be retroactively included in the total tax liability, since you are tax resident for a specific year, not for specific months. My guess is yes, but I went to get a tax ID number last week and I was told to come back when i've spent more than 180 days in the country already and have remitted assesable income.

16 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Can you see the very elderly coming to Thailand in their last days and having to screw around with this tax?..

Yes, they will still come to Thailand.  That's because even though this tax screws them around, they will get to screw around in Thailand. 

 

On a serious note, these care homes will probably offer an all up package, similar to the big hospitals in Bangkok for medical tourism.  You pay them, and they take care of everything, including any taxes that may be owed.

3 minutes ago, thomasfielk said:

Hello Mike,

My apologies in advance if my question is dumb, however lets say I transfered X amount of assesable income in June, at which point I've only spend 140 days in the country.

If I spend more than 180 days in the country this year making me a tax resident, would I need to pay tax on that money even though when I transfered it I was not a tax resident yet (At that exact point in time)?

Or it will be retroactively included in the total tax liability, since you are tax resident for a specific year, not for specific months. My guess is yes, but I went to get a tax ID number last week and I was told to come back when i've spent more than 180 days in the country already and have remitted assesable income.

Remitted income is measured over the course of the entire year in which you are tax resident 

21 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I have the same account back home, but they think I am a resident of my home country, and as there is a tax threshold, I pay no tax on interest earned back there. Now you might say, why not tell them you are a non resident and allow them to collect the withholding tax (10%). Fact of the matter is, I don't trust banks and I don't want them passing my account information onto anyone, as they do, do this.

In a thread in the Home Country Forum you said under Article 18 in the DTA between Australia and Thailand you would have to pay no tax in Australia, even as a non resident.  What's changed?  

On 7/11/2024 at 11:00 AM, geisha said:

One of my family members is close to deciding on a care home in Thailand. 
Now he has read that the amount he would need monthly to pay his costs is around 2500£ +  with which he is fine, but knowing that he will pay tax on this will probably change his mind. I don’t know how much tax this would be on around 30 000£,  ( excluding visa costs and health insurance). 
Will he cancel his plans, or , as I suggested, stay just under 6 months, but which means keeping his home in the UK.  He’s waiting for concrete figures. I know he would not transfer his economies to Thailand as he’s very careful with money. So it would be transferring funds when needed.,

How can he get an estimate, or is it too soon ? Thanks.

I would tell him to hold off on the decision until April 2025 to see how all this plays out. 

 

Also, for that sort of money, he could have in house care for 16 hours a day, so no need for a care home.  Has this been considered?  

 

As you mentioned in another post, he's best to leave his assets in the UK and transfer money over as needed.  That's not just due to this tax, it's common sense.   

4 hours ago, Lorry said:

@Mike Lister

So, the advantage of filing even if not required is, an audit will only go back 3 years,  not 10 (and no 2000 fine).

How many times does one have to have filed to get this advantage?

Just having filed last year is good enough?

3 years? 

10 years? 

 

I found your old post with the link 

 

https://orbitax.com/taxhub/countrychapters/TH/Thailand/e5f4c7d16b644b02bdb68eb4bbc3ab94/Statute-of-Limitations-1483

 

I now think I completely misunderstood how this works.

For any given year, the statute of limitations limits the time they can audit this year to 5 years.

If no tAX was filed for this given year they can audit this year even 10 years later. 

Is this the correct way ro look at it?

7 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I would disagree.  The system as functioning in the now is based almost entirely on self-assessment of remitted funds.

 

Only assessable remitted funds are entered onto the tax form.  NON-assessable funds (as determined by DTA) are invisible to the system.  The tax forms are not designed to capture all remittances, only assessable income which is entered into the standard spaces for salary and interest/dividends and capital gains, etc.

 

It is the tax filer's burden to have sufficient supporting documentation available to back up their self-assessment if audited, but that does not come into play during normal filing, either online or in-person.

 

If you are a US citizen earning 10K in bank interest in Thailand and remitting $3000/month US social security (covered by DTA), then you are below the threshold.  You can (in my and my local tax office opinion) NOT file, OR you can file online only listing 20K Thai-sourced income to claim your 1500 baht tax refund, OR you can attend your tax office to file in-person and be told NOT to file unless you want to claim the refund.  (YKMV!) 

 

In any case, the remitted social security is not assessable, not taxed, and not listed on the tax form.  There are no DTA issues to prevent filing online.  This should remain so until the tax forms are revised to collect all remittances, regardless of assessability.

 

 

While remittances from foreign income which is tax exempt in Thailand under DTA are not tax assessable income, remittances for foreign income with tax credits are likely to qualify as tax assessable income. There have been general TRD statements that income under DTA is not taxed in Thailand, and this certainly applies to tax exempt income,. However, these statements cannot be expanded to tax credits - contradicting the DTA - unless explicitly confirmed by TRD. In the current tax forms, I would enter as tax assessable income the remittance after deducting the DTA tax credit, but new tax forms are expected later this year. 

32 minutes ago, Lorry said:

I found your old post with the link 

 

https://orbitax.com/taxhub/countrychapters/TH/Thailand/e5f4c7d16b644b02bdb68eb4bbc3ab94/Statute-of-Limitations-1483

 

I now think I completely misunderstood how this works.

For any given year, the statute of limitations limits the time they can audit this year to 5 years.

If no tAX was filed for this given year they can audit this year even 10 years later. 

Is this the correct way ro look at it?

I understand it to be 10 years from the current year.

On 7/11/2024 at 4:43 PM, stat said:

Tax consultancies can never be cought on the wrong side of the law, so they will always tell you "does not work; it not allowed, you must file" etc.

Well, yeah -- they certainly can't put down in writing something that is 180 degrees out from the law. But, if they know the law is ridiculous -- and that there is a 99% chance you won't suffer any consequences for not filing a tax return, if you have no taxable income -- then they just might whisper in your ear: "No need to file a nil tax return, as during all our years of dealing with taxes, we've never seen anyone pay a fine, or be subject to extended audit, for not filing when no taxable income due." [Hey, that's true, at least per the data provided, or not, on this forum.]

 

And this would be more in evidence if you're a client of a financial company, where you do business, not only in taxes, but in other areas, such as financial planning and investments. Obviously, they would like to keep you as a client -- especially if tax prep is not your prime contribution to their business -- so a wise word may just be good for future business.

 

Not so for a "tax prep only" operation -- as we've seen in an earlier report, where they're charging "7.5/10k" to do a nil tax return. You think they're going to shoot themselves in the foot by telling you not to file, 'cause there's zip chance of any consequences for not filing? Come on. These folks are already salivating by the reports they're getting from AN, where certain dialogue is promoting their future business thru scare tactics -- to prepare nil tax returns, for 10,000 baht.

 

Anyway, an interesting contribution to this discussion is the term "fiduciary." This is big on US TV advertisements for financial advisors. Don't know if there's fiduciary related law here in Thailand. But here's what is says about it in the US:

 

Quote

The difference between a fiduciary and a non-fiduciary advisor is that a fiduciary advisor is legally obligated to act in the client’s best interests, while a non-fiduciary advisor might prioritize their own interests or those of the institution they represent over the client’s. They do not have a fiduciary duty to their client. 

 

Hmmmm. So, if my tax prep guy holds himself out as a fiduciary -- is he obligated to tell me, "Save 10,000 baht by not filing a nil tax return, 'cause you'll suffer no consequences." Or, are the "client's best interests" in obeying the law? Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out to ponder on, since, as far as I know, there are no fiduciary laws in Thailand. But -- of course, there is complete merit in knowing that, who you hire, has your best interests, not his, at the forefront.

 

 

On 7/12/2024 at 6:38 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Remember, this is just my single data point anecdote....YKMV!

 

But I suspect is the most common experience for non-employed foreigners in Thailand.  If you work or involved in business here, filing probably required regardless of total income (my opinion).

 

Sit down at the desk across from the tax officer.  Tell them the numbers, or in my case hand them a single hand-written paper with the relevant numbers:  total Thai bank interest, total tax withheld, total SET dividends received, total tax withheld, total remittances.

 

Interest and dividends total about 6K, interest about 1K, remitted about 310K.  Officer asked if remittance was salary or pension.  I said it was savings.  No request for foreign bank statements was requested, simple self assessment.  (Turns out my deductions and 0% tax bracket would total 320K, includes wife's social/health insurance payments.)  Officer said do NOT need to file.  I asked about filing for refund of tax paid.  Officer says yes, can, if I choose to.

 

No documents were requested at this point to reach the NO filing determination.  (Small values and no Thai salary.)  I had the dividend payment receipts available, and bank passbooks,  but not the bank interest statement, as no desire to wait several hours in the local branch for a printout for such a small sum.

 

I asked about online filing - would I need to upload any documents such as dividend receipts or interest statement.  Officer said not necessary.  We then set up online filing.  My TIN was cancelled and my pink ID card number was entered in the e-file system.  Officer let me retain the TIN card for my files.

 

We later filed three online tax returns, all filed late, about 15 minutes each.  Confirm no documents required to upload.  The payer tax ID number (BKK Bank and broker) was required to submit this section.  Got final PD90 and receipt for 2021 and 2022.  It appears no refund if filing over one year late, but no late filing fee.  Paid a 200 baht late fee by bank transfer for 2023, and will receive an 850 baht check in the mail in a week or so, final PD90 and receipt will be available via the online system.

 

My local tax office says NO file needed.  I shall file online annually simply to have a record of filing.  It's fun and easy.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your post! All would be swell if TRD accepts that your remittance is savings only!

 

However if they change to ww income things would look close to impossible to declare correctly in case of a brokerage account with lots of complicated trades and capital messures.

22 hours ago, JimGant said:

Are you saying, if in the old days, and you remitted your German pension to Thailand in year earned -- they wouldn't tax it, if you filed a tax return? I believe you're confusing not filing, and the "pension remitted is previous year's earnings" charade, as your observation that Thailand doesn't tax it.

 

"They don't tax it" is, of course, the illogical extension of "I didn't file a Thai tax return for this income." Duh.

I have never encountered a single German pensioner that paid taxes on their government pension so far. It was all "covered" under the assumption that they would transfer the monies in another year. I have heard numerous accounts (hearsay) that they were told to leave the premise by TRD if they tried to file a tax declaration. Apparently things (might) change in 2024.

 

https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/steuerreform-in-thailand-sind-deutsche-rentner-betroffen-221715.html

19 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Oh you poor thing, can't get an answer to your "friendly" question!

 

For the past seven months, you have engaged in a very public campaign of challenging anything and everything I say on the subject of tax. This has evolved from writing many many letters of complaint to Admin, Support and the owners, frequent abusive PM's to me and solicitation of support from other members. Today, your campaign comprises (several times) daily challenges (every day without fail) to anything I have written in posts the previous day and not so subtle remarks about, "the poster who cannot be named"....today I apparently, "behave as if you are the absolute authority on anything tax related for whatever reason".

 

I don't really want to put you on my ignore list because many of the things you post need correcting in the eyes of members. I am sorry you are unable to get over my elevation to Moderator; I'm sorry you are unable to get over the fact that I made something useful out of the tax information and compiled the tax guide; I'm sorry you were unable to accept the official warnings and temporary bans you were given for being unnecessarily argumentative; I'm sorry that so many members ask me so many tax related questions and not you and that the "ask mike show", continues unabated; I'm sorry that you are not widely seen as the tax expert you have always claimed to be....only you can deal with those issues in your own mind.

 

In going forward, I will continue to ignore any question you ask of me but I will correct any post of yours that I think contains incorrect information. 

You seem to have  a lot of times at your hands writting long posts without answering a simple question. Reminds of a politician that talks for hours without saying anything.

4 minutes ago, stat said:

Thanks for your post! All would be swell if TRD accepts that your remittance is savings only!

 

However if they change to ww income things would look close to impossible to declare correctly in case of a brokerage account with lots of complicated trades and capital messures.

 

No kidding.  That would be a game-changer!

 

Why, just last night I sold/purchased stock funds to raise cost basis and lower future tax payments.  Staying within 0% capital gains bracket, zero US tax on $20K realized income.  That would be taxable at 25% rate under proposed Thailand worldwide no-remittance rules.

 

Nothing complicated about it!  Retiree works and invests for fifty years, amassing unrealized capital gains.  Thailand thinks they're gonna git 'em sum, merely for deigning to grant them the privilege of occupying space as a second-class non-citizen.

 

No.

10 hours ago, JimGant said:

Not so for a "tax prep only" operation -- as we've seen in an earlier report, where they're charging "7.5/10k" to do a nil tax return. You think they're going to shoot themselves in the foot by telling you not to file, 'cause there's zip chance of any consequences for not filing? Come on. These folks are already salivating by the reports they're getting from AN, where certain dialogue is promoting their future business thru scare tactics -- to prepare nil tax returns, for 10,000 baht.

 

Let's just correct yet another deliberate attempt at disinformation, just so everyone understands:

 

Members are being informed, via these threads, what laws/rules exist, as we understand them today. Nobody is being instructed or commanded to do anything, only provided with information regarding the things we believe are required in law. Members are always free to make their own decisions to do whatever they wish with that information. I have repeatedly pushed back very hard against those posters who are inclined to offer well intentioned but unqualified and unconfired Thai tax advice, based on their overseas experience and Jim has been the biggest offenders in this area. I am certain that when members make decisions about how to proceed in specific areas of tax, they want to understand the penalties and downsides that exist so they can make sound decisions. That's not scaremongering in any shape or form, that is raising awareness and keeping members informed, no more, no less. 

I was considering the question of whether I would pay to file a tax return in Thailand and some of you may find my thoughts on this interesting, I hope so.

 

I know a little bit about tax because I worked for the Big 4 in The City for several years plus I've been involved in tax matters at clients and as part of running my own business for many years. Despite those things, I have always paid others to produce and file my UK tax return, even until today,, even though it's very simple and straight forward. I pay 180 Pounds a year to my UK tax accountant to compiler and file my return. I also file a US tax return as a non-resident and a long standing colleague who is a tax accountant does this for me. At some point, when I find the right person/company, I may well pay them to file my Thai tax return, in future years and 7k doesn't seem an unreasonable amount to me. Why?

 

In each example above, I'm paying somebody who is focussed on tax full time, in their respective territory. They are more likely than me to be current on new legislation, new, rules and practise plus they have current and up to date experience and contacts. Mostly, I have an "expert" in tax who stands between me and the various Revenue departments and I like that. That is not to say that I don't spend a fair amount of time with spreadsheets throughout the year in order to plan my financial year but the mechanics of filing and interface I leave to others. When I operated my own business, my philosophy was to contract out all those things that are not central to the running of the business and making profit. Now I'm retired, my philosophy remains similar and filing tax returns and dealing with the Revenue, isn't a core part of my retirement. Heck I let an agent take care of all my visa and immigrations affairs and that's run as smooth as silk for a decade, why not do the same with tax.

 

Your mileage may vary.

On 7/11/2024 at 10:25 PM, Phulublub said:

How many times does it need to be said that the vast majority of expats will have zero, or near zero, tax to pay and this new measure is not aimed at us at all, but at wealthy Thais offshoring income and bringing it back without incurring any taxes?

 

We do need to be mindful that we follow the rules and understand our own personal circumstances wrt assessable income and DTAs, but that's about it.

 

PH

Because this thread is full of nutters that can't comprehend.  Mike is trying to help but he is actually just throwing more Chum in the water and those with common sense get to watch this debacle with semi glee.  In the end, as I stated in October, Mike will be demonized by the nutters that loved him  in October because basically he "is" telling them to calm down and try to comprehend what he is saying.  Can't expect Mike to remain a sane indefinitely  among a crowd of nutters that have strange agendas.

 

It would be better for him if he stopped chumming and repeatedly provide a list of reasons we won't be paying taxes without mentioning once why some might.  He could list 10 reasons why we won't be paying but if he lists one why some might pay then nutville will lose their shttt for our entertainment.  His capacity to try to communicate with the nutters is admirable and comical at the same time.

5 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Because this thread is full of nutters that can't comprehend.  Mike is trying to help but he is actually just throwing more Chum in the water and those with common sense get to watch this debacle with semi glee.  In the end, as I stated in October, Mike will be demonized by the nutters that loved him  in October because basically he "is" telling them to calm down and try to comprehend what he is saying.  Can't expect Mike to remain a sane indefinitely  among a crowd of nutters that have strange agendas.

 

It would be better for him if he stopped chumming and repeatedly provide a list of reasons we won't be paying taxes without mentioning once why some might.  He could list 10 reasons why we won't be paying but if he lists one why some might pay then nutville will lose their shttt for our entertainment.  His capacity to try to communicate with the nutters is admirable and comical at the same time.

Sadly, there is no one size fits all on this. I worry less about the same three nutters who continually run interference than I do the people who are just waking up to the tax issue and the point at which they begin to read these threads and find so much disinformation and so much antagonism. There is zero logical reason for either to exist in this topic and you have to wonder why it does. It appears to be the nature of people involved in social network forums that is why we are where we are, that doesn't mean though that we all should stop trying.

I'm totally confused as to this 'tax' thing. I have to do my extension in a few weeks and is there any extra paperwork I need to take with me to the IO? The last thing I want is to go without all my needed paperwork.

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sadly, there is no one size fits all on this. I worry less about the same three nutters who continually run interference than I do the people who are just waking up to the tax issue and the point at which they begin to read these threads and find so much disinformation and so much antagonism. There is zero logical reason for either to exist in this topic and you have to wonder why it does. It appears to be the nature of people involved in social network forums that is why we are where we are, that doesn't mean though that we all should stop trying.

Thanks for trying and it is entertaining.  Cheers 🙂

6 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

I'm totally confused as to this 'tax' thing. I have to do my extension in a few weeks and is there any extra paperwork I need to take with me to the IO? The last thing I want is to go without all my needed paperwork.

No, nothing new.

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

No, nothing new.

Thank you for that. 

On 7/12/2024 at 4:57 AM, Presnock said:

Well having worked in organizations within the govt, one is given a buget amount for a period of time based on needs.  I one tries to expand the number the workers in order to do more, then the govt usually does not provide any extra funds for the extra workers - what happens is normally either work is not done or workers are fuloughed.  This is especially true if the govt has no funds to start with so they normally tell the organizations to do more with less.  Heard it many times over the years I was working for the govt and doing budgets while being given increased tasking every year.  Just sayiing

Available for reading within the TRD are the exemptions by royal decree of taxes.  In reading about the LTR, it specifically says near the end, that the director of the TRD can remove the exemption of those taxes on remitted funds from overseas.  Just saying, yes, the possibility does exist though we figured that anyway as TIT and anything could or will not happen.  We just need to wait.

FWIW I find @JimGant contributions as useful as @Mike Lister  and the bickering about who is posting disinformation or not useless noise.  But I'm able to ingest information and think critically for myself.  I appreciate the contributions and effort of the OP, but in other threads I've never found it helpful when the OP tries to rule the thread with an iron fist.  

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I am certain that when members make decisions about how to proceed in specific areas of tax, they want to understand the penalties and downsides that exist so they can make sound decisions.

Agreed. But they also want to get a feel for the probability that they'll suffer some consequence for not filing a nil tax return -- or for not getting a TIN after 60 days. So far, we've seen NO consequences reported; which, of course, doesn't mean there might not be in the future. However, I really doubt TRD would waste resources on the chance of collecting a 2000 baht fine. Anyway, you keep reporting the law, and I'll focus on probabilities. That should make for balanced reporting.

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

Agreed. But they also want to get a feel for the probability that they'll suffer some consequence for not filing a nil tax return -- or for not getting a TIN after 60 days. So far, we've seen NO consequences reported; which, of course, doesn't mean there might not be in the future. However, I really doubt TRD would waste resources on the chance of collecting a 2000 baht fine. Anyway, you keep reporting the law, and I'll focus on probabilities. That should make for balanced reporting.

Agreed. There is the Law and the daily life reality.
In order to make the right decision people should get the full spectrum of information. Unenforced rules are pointless and nonsensical.

 

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

Agreed. But they also want to get a feel for the probability that they'll suffer some consequence for not filing a nil tax return -- or for not getting a TIN after 60 days. So far, we've seen NO consequences reported; which, of course, doesn't mean there might not be in the future. However, I really doubt TRD would waste resources on the chance of collecting a 2000 baht fine. Anyway, you keep reporting the law, and I'll focus on probabilities. That should make for balanced reporting.

With full respect for your US CPA qualifications, you are in no better position than anyone else in the forum to understand the risk probabilities inherent in the Thai system of tax. This is the major issue, I think you use your experience of US tax affairs and overlay them on to Thailand to project what might happen here and that is not valid. Similarly, that other poster uses his knowledge of the German tax model in the same way and that long winded  Ossie bloke the Australian model. I can easily take the UK model and overlay their rules and practices onto Thailand and come up with something else entirely, in which case I would be equally incorrect. Having a little or a lot of knowledge about another country's tax operations is useful to some degree, in Thailand's case, a lesser degree.

2 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

Agreed. There is the Law and the daily life reality.
In order to make the right decision people should get the full spectrum of information. Unenforced rules are pointless and nonsensical.

 

I can agree, but would the police officer and the court also agree when somebody somewhere decided to enforce one of them, for whatever reason.

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I can agree, but would the police officer and the court also agree when somebody somewhere decided to enforce one of them, for whatever reason.

 

Reality-check shows that tax law enforcement is close to none at the moment. If it happens tomorrow then people will follow.
Besides, when confronted to the authority in Thailand, it's ok to "discuss" your fate.

 

Each individual should be able to assess, with comprehensive info, the probable outcomes and risks of their decisions.

Risk-averse people tend to avoid all risks at any cost, trying to forestall any future possible rules enforcement. This is counterproductive in Thailand as per the nature of the Thai mindset and the ever changing rules.

Others are more pragmatic and will wait to see real-life actions happening, as locals do, to then adapt and comply.

To each their own.

3 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

Reality-check shows that tax law enforcement is close to none at the moment. If it happens tomorrow then people will follow.
Besides, when confronted to the authority in Thailand, it's ok to "discuss" your fate.

 

Each individual should be able to assess, with comprehensive info, the probable outcomes and risks of their decisions.

Risk-averse people tend to avoid all risks at any cost, trying to forestall any future possible rules enforcement. This is counterproductive in Thailand as per the nature of the Thai mindset and the ever changing rules.

Others are more pragmatic and will wait to see real-life actions happening, as locals do, to then adapt and comply.

To each their own.

Agreed.

3 hours ago, brian2322 said:

FWIW I find @JimGant contributions as useful as @Mike Lister  and the bickering about who is posting disinformation or not useless noise.  But I'm able to ingest information and think critically for myself.  I appreciate the contributions and effort of the OP, but in other threads I've never found it helpful when the OP tries to rule the thread with an iron fist.  

Sometimes you need to be firm, if you want to get something done, deliver results and not just be a talking shop about every related subject under the sun.