Buying a house without using a lawyer

[OnTheLash]

I am in the process of buying a house and would like to know your thoughts on whether I should engage a lawyer or not?

 

The house is in a Thais name and will be going into my Thai wife's name. On the face of it a straight forward purchase.

 

I have been quoted 45,000 baht lawyers fees. House price 5.5 million.

 

I would like to know your experiences buying houses with and without lawyers.

[OneMoreFarang]

IMHO you need an experienced Thai person or a farang who can read and write Thai who you can trust. It does not have to be a lawyer.

I had the help of a farang friend who used to be a property agent in Thailand - and his Thai is nearly perfect. He knows all the details, and I know I can trust him.

 

[jvs]

Make sure who ever it is that is selling the house is also the owner.

Do they have the chanote at hand?

Take some one who buys and sells a lot and give them some cash to help you.

From a Thai seller to a Thai buyer should be straight forward but there is cheating going on all the time.

They may have some one at the land office who is willing to help you.

[scubascuba3]

The land office should be checking names, chanotes etc, use google lens to translate.

 

Lawyers charge what they can get away with. Ask the lawyer to list what he will do for 45k, he won't be able to

[UWEB]

And ensure that there is no Mortgage on Land or House.

[Hummin]

50 minutes ago, OnTheLash said:

I am in the process of buying a house and would like to know your thoughts on whether I should engage a lawyer or not?

 

The house is in a Thais name and will be going into my Thai wife's name. On the face of it a straight forward purchase.

 

I have been quoted 45,000 baht lawyers fees. House price 5.5 million.

 

I would like to know your experiences buying houses with and without lawyers.

First of all, is the lawyer the sales agent for the seller? Or is it a lawyer you have chosen? Thats two different things, and where the loyality going to be during the sale and handover. 

 

When I was looking for appartment in Hua Hin, the real estate agent also came with a package with their lawyer, and it was up to me to choose a lawyer for my self to finalize the take over, but they did not recomend it, and many do not even care and trust the real estate agent 100% 

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, UWEB said:

And ensure that there is no Mortgage on Land or House.

if there is mortgage on the land, the bank holds the chanote. 

[BritManToo]

Buy with a mortgage, nobody cheats the banks during a house purchase.

 

Not to mention your wife can't easily dump you or sell the house later.

[OnTheLash]

Thanks for the replies.

I thought that 45k was a lot to charge just for holding our hands at the land office.

The land office should check the chanote etc.

I guess its more about peace of mind.

If it did go south I am sure the lawyer would run a mile anyway.

[Hummin]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Buy with a mortgage, nobody cheats the banks during a house purchase.

 

Not to mention your wife can't easily dump you or sell the house later.

Thats a very good solution when the land have chanote to have mortage. 

[OnTheLash]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

Thats a very good solution when the land have chanote to have mortage. 

 

The rates are a little steep now. Up to 7%.

[scorecard]

18 hours ago, Hummin said:

Thats a very good solution when the land have chanote to have mortage. 

 

Have you considered recording a usufruct on the back of the chanut document?

 

It would mention that even thought you personally are not the owner, the actual (new) owner agrees that you have the right to live in the property until YOU revoke that right.

 

It should also mention that the property cannot be sold without your written permission. And you would be the only person who can cancel / remove the usufruct.

 

I have a usufruct on the land and house I bought for my Thai son in a moo bahn village.

 

Son was keen for the usufruct to be be put in place. Why? 1). Respect for me. 2). Because he doesn't trust his in-laws (for very good reasons) and his wife is frightened of her unpleasant corrupt siblings.

 

Son and his wife had fears her siblings would try to get the owners name changed from son's name to son's wife's name then changed to their names.

 

They would have no hesitation to strongly pressure sons' wife and no hesitation to offer / pay big money to a lawyer or to the local lands title office to get the chanut changed. 

[OnTheLash]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Have you considered recording a usufruct on the back of the chanut document?

 

It would mention that even thought you personally are not the owner, the actual (new) owner agrees that you have the right to live in the property until YOU revoke that right.

 

It should also mention that the property cannot be sold without your written permission. And you would be the only person who can cancel / remove the usufruct.

 

I have a usufruct on the land and house I bought for my Thai son in a moo bahn village.

 

Son was keen for the usufruct to be be put in place. Why? 1). Respect for me. 2). Because he doesn't trust his in-laws (for very good reasons) and his wife is frightened of her unpleasant corrupt siblings.

 

Son and his wife had fears her siblings would try to get the owners name changed from son's name to son's wife's name then changed to their names.

 

They would have no hesitation to strongly pressure sons' wife and no hesitation to offer / pay big money to a lawyer or to the local lands title office to get the chanut changed. 

 

[OnTheLash]

1 minute ago, OnTheLash said:

 

Thanks for the response. I've never considered an usufruct. If it all goes pear shaped I just walk away, its not an issue to me.

Everybody's circumstances are different. This will be my 7th house purchase in Thailand with the same woman. I have signed my life away 6 times in the past at the land office.

I was looking for recent experiences of posters using and not using a lawyer (I have never used one in the past).

Lawyers certainly seem to be charging a premium now when a foreigner is involved, unfortunately I have to be there.

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, OnTheLash said:

Thanks for the response. I've never considered an usufruct. If it all goes pear shaped I just walk away, its not an issue to me.

Everybody's circumstances are different. This will be my 7th house purchase in Thailand with the same woman. I have signed my life away 6 times in the past at the land office.

I was looking for recent experiences of posters using and not using a lawyer (I have never used one in the past).

Lawyers certainly seem to be charging a premium now when a foreigner is involved, unfortunately I have to be there.

Might want to lead with that next time.  Save people from replying, as you have more experience at the land office than most members on AN.  Makes me wonder why you even asked.

[LukKrueng]

On 11/4/2024 at 2:00 PM, OnTheLash said:

I am in the process of buying a house and would like to know your thoughts on whether I should engage a lawyer or not?

 

The house is in a Thais name and will be going into my Thai wife's name. On the face of it a straight forward purchase.

 

I have been quoted 45,000 baht lawyers fees. House price 5.5 million.

 

I would like to know your experiences buying houses with and without lawyers.

No need for a lawyer. I bought 3 properties through a real estate agent and a 4th property directly from seller, and recently sold 1 directly to the buyer without an agent\lowyer.

As you're married to a Thai woman, she should be able to read and understand what's going on.

Things you have to do before buying:

1. Get a copy of the chanot, go to the relevant land office and check if the title is a freehold or had any debt\leaes or other issues that might prevent the selling of the property.

2. Check the boundaries of the property to make sure they match the chanot.

3. If the seller wants a deposit, write a contract with all the agreed upon conditions (total price, who pays the fees for the transfer of the title, time frame to complete the deal). 

4. Set an appointment with the seller at the land office. Seller and buyer have to present their ID card, and if married the spouse has to sign a consent for the sell\buy. Seller has to bring the original chanot.

 

At the land office they will check all documents and get both parties to sign a sell\buy agreement form (this happens whether or not you already signed another agreement between the 2 parties). Once the officer ok's all the documents whoever has to pay the fees goes to the cashier and brings the receipt back to the officer. The officer will ask the seller if they got paid on full for the property (full payment should be made after the officer approved all the docs) and then the officer will put the buyer's name on the chanot and give you a copy of the sell\buy agreement.

Congrats, your wife is now the owner of the property.

 

On a side note - agents fee is normally 3% of the sell price, and a lawyer shouldn't charge more than that as well.

[khunPer]

1 hour ago, OnTheLash said:

Thanks for the response. I've never considered an usufruct. If it all goes pear shaped I just walk away, its not an issue to me.

Everybody's circumstances are different. This will be my 7th house purchase in Thailand with the same woman. I have signed my life away 6 times in the past at the land office.

I was looking for recent experiences of posters using and not using a lawyer (I have never used one in the past).

Lawyers certainly seem to be charging a premium now when a foreigner is involved, unfortunately I have to be there.

Being that experienced you should not need a lawyer. Your wife can probably check the paper work and do the due diligence on the land office – like checking name on title deed and any servitudes registered on the back, hereunder mortgage – before paying deposit. Pay the balance when name is changed on the title deed; best is to agree it in the sales-contract, how payment is settled, for example as cash or cashier's cheque.

[OnTheLash]

3 hours ago, LukKrueng said:

No need for a lawyer. I bought 3 properties through a real estate agent and a 4th property directly from seller, and recently sold 1 directly to the buyer without an agent\lowyer.

As you're married to a Thai woman, she should be able to read and understand what's going on.

Things you have to do before buying:

1. Get a copy of the chanot, go to the relevant land office and check if the title is a freehold or had any debt\leaes or other issues that might prevent the selling of the property.

2. Check the boundaries of the property to make sure they match the chanot.

3. If the seller wants a deposit, write a contract with all the agreed upon conditions (total price, who pays the fees for the transfer of the title, time frame to complete the deal). 

4. Set an appointment with the seller at the land office. Seller and buyer have to present their ID card, and if married the spouse has to sign a consent for the sell\buy. Seller has to bring the original chanot.

 

At the land office they will check all documents and get both parties to sign a sell\buy agreement form (this happens whether or not you already signed another agreement between the 2 parties). Once the officer ok's all the documents whoever has to pay the fees goes to the cashier and brings the receipt back to the officer. The officer will ask the seller if they got paid on full for the property (full payment should be made after the officer approved all the docs) and then the officer will put the buyer's name on the chanot and give you a copy of the sell\buy agreement.

Congrats, your wife is now the owner of the property.

 

On a side note - agents fee is normally 3% of the sell price, and a lawyer shouldn't charge more than that as well.

Good advice, thanks.

[john donson]

On 11/4/2024 at 2:49 PM, UWEB said:

And ensure that there is no Mortgage on Land or House.

 

it is called a chanote and if the bank owns it, you will see the name of the bank

 

what OP should do is get a USUFRUCT for life

[AgMech Cowboy]

On 11/4/2024 at 2:00 PM, OnTheLash said:

I am in the process of buying a house and would like to know your thoughts on whether I should engage a lawyer or not?

1. The house is in a Thais name and will be going into my Thai wife's name. On the face of it a straight forward purchase.

2. I have been quoted 45,000 baht lawyers fees. House price 5.5 million.

3. I would like to know your experiences buying houses with and without lawyers.

@OnTheLash I married a young Thai girl 23+ years ago. We bought a house 3 years later. 

#1. You're purchasing an asset. If you put both the house and land in her name you've handed her all of your housing future (unless you're very well off).

#2. I've no idea about the cost of attorney's fees, but 19++ years ago, I wish I'd have hired one who's really able to negotiate plans for your future. The test for his quality is next.

#3. Put the land in your wife's name, which you already know. Put the house in your name (find an attorney that recommends that and knows how to do it) and make a lease on the land that will enable you to use it until you're 100+? years old.

 

Seriously! My wife, with our son's urgings/recommendation, took a loan against our house & land for 1/2 the appraised value and signed a sales document over to them if we were not able to pay-off the loan in 1 year. We can pay 10% interest per year for 3 years and stay in the house.  Had I put the house in my name and a rock solid lease agreement, she could not have done that. Now I'm retired and just had this deal thrown in my face. (and she is actually a smart girl, but many Thai women have this strange attitude. I grew up with nothing, I can live that way again, no worries).

[OnTheLash]

55 minutes ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

@OnTheLash I married a young Thai girl 23+ years ago. We bought a house 3 years later. 

#1. You're purchasing an asset. If you put both the house and land in her name you've handed her all of your housing future (unless you're very well off).

#2. I've no idea about the cost of attorney's fees, but 19++ years ago, I wish I'd have hired one who's really able to negotiate plans for your future. The test for his quality is next.

#3. Put the land in your wife's name, which you already know. Put the house in your name (find an attorney that recommends that and knows how to do it) and make a lease on the land that will enable you to use it until you're 100+? years old.

 

Seriously! My wife, with our son's urgings/recommendation, took a loan against our house & land for 1/2 the appraised value and signed a sales document over to them if we were not able to pay-off the loan in 1 year. We can pay 10% interest per year for 3 years and stay in the house.  Had I put the house in my name and a rock solid lease agreement, she could not have done that. Now I'm retired and just had this deal thrown in my face. (and she is actually a smart girl, but many Thai women have this strange attitude. I grew up with nothing, I can live that way again, no worries).

Sorry to hear about that Agmech. What happened to you is a common occurrence in Thailand.

You made some good points about lease on land etc. also Usufruct as a previous poster mentioned.

As I said before everybody's circumstances are different.

 

[AgMech Cowboy]

1 hour ago, OnTheLash said:

Sorry to hear about that Agmech. What happened to you is a common occurrence in Thailand.

You made some good points about lease on land etc. also Usufruct as a previous poster mentioned.

As I said before everybody's circumstances are different.

 

True, but I never thought she would do that (and my son...). I had offered earlier in the year (of 2023) to go to SCB to refinance the house so we'd have enough money for his college, but she said it wasn't enough. Go figure... 

[FritsSikkink]

On 11/4/2024 at 2:00 PM, OnTheLash said:

I am in the process of buying a house and would like to know your thoughts on whether I should engage a lawyer or not?

 

The house is in a Thais name and will be going into my Thai wife's name. On the face of it a straight forward purchase.

 

I have been quoted 45,000 baht lawyers fees. House price 5.5 million.

 

I would like to know your experiences buying houses with and without lawyers.

My wife bought several houses / land and never needed a lawyer.

[BritManToo]

On 11/6/2024 at 11:32 AM, AgMech Cowboy said:

Seriously! My wife, with our son's urgings/recommendation, took a loan against our house & land for 1/2 the appraised value and signed a sales document over to them if we were not able to pay-off the loan in 1 year. We can pay 10% interest per year for 3 years and stay in the house.  Had I put the house in my name and a rock solid lease agreement, she could not have done that. Now I'm retired and just had this deal thrown in my face. (and she is actually a smart girl, but many Thai women have this strange attitude. I grew up with nothing, I can live that way again, no worries).

And you're still with her?

And you still have contact with your son?

 

I would have walked away from them both, no contact ever again.

[chiang mai]

Lawyer fees to buy and sell a house are about 15k baht, using a good lawyer but frankly you don't get much for that. My best tip when buying a property is to have the Land Office survey the boundaries of the land and make sure there are no surprises.

[OnTheLash]

20 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Lawyer fees to buy and sell a house are about 15k baht, using a good lawyer but frankly you don't get much for that. My best tip when buying a property is to have the Land Office survey the boundaries of the land and make sure there are no surprises.

Will they come out and do a survey if asked?

What is their normal fee for this?

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, OnTheLash said:

Will they come out and do a survey if asked?

What is their normal fee for this?

Yes, absolutely they will. The cost for us in Mae Rim 3 years ago was 6k baht.

[Thingamabob]

 In Thailand the most important issue is whether or not the person selling the property to you is legally entitled to do so. You will be best advised to employ a reputable lawyer, or a well-informed and reliable contact, to assist you on this point 

[Davut]

My advice would be to use a lawyer,   I have bought 2 and sold one and used a lawyer each time.   Also consider a usufruct on the house you are going to purchase.   I used Isaan lawyers based at Korat and found them excellent,  and prices nothing like 45k,   boss is English and staff speak very good English,

[chiang mai]

Always check the back of the chanotte, any encumbrance on the property will be listed there.

 

A bog standard 15k solicitor payment doesn't buy you much or reduce your risk, Many people think the role of the lawyer in this type of transaction is to protect the buyer from the Land Office process which in truth is very efficient and requires very little support. Boundaries and seller identity are my two major concerns. 

 

I've never had a lawyer provide a contract for my purchases, I've always done that myself but eventually gave up when I realised that what I'd written and we'd signed probably was meaningless....my lawyer(s) were not really interested in its contents and didn't think it was necessary. What you get for 15k is the lawyers attendance at the Land Office and some cursory checks and that's about it, if you want more than that you have to upscale the price significantly but I still doubt they will bother to do a land office survey.