Thai lawyer argues most expats won’t be impacted by personal income tax

[Moonlover]

This article, posted in the Pattaya Mail, came to my attention this morning. Although it already appears in another thread, I felt that it is important enough to warrant its own heading. My thanks to @Scouse123 posting this earlier.

 

Thai lawyer argues most expats won’t be impacted by personal income tax

 

Do be sure to watch the short video.

[mfd101]

"Mr Hart stresses that Thai financial laws have not changed and states that “most” foreigners who are tax residents are ill-advised to request a TIN number from their local TRD.  Although the video does not elaborate on “most”, it appears to include those resident in Thailand for at least 180 days in 2024 who are dependent on pensions pre-taxed in their first country.  It is this large, mainly retiree group which has attracted the greatest attention."

 

What Mr Hart appears not to know or understand is that at least some expats (eg Australians) have been forced by their home banks - under threat of having their bank accounts closed - to get and record in Oz their TIN. All based on the perfectly legitimate & sensible international agreements on sharing financial/taxation information with the aim of reducing international tax evasion.

[The Cyclist]

12 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

 

What Mr Hart appears not to know or understand is that at least some expats (eg Australians) have been forced by their home banks - under threat of having their bank accounts closed - to get and record in Oz their TIN. All based on the perfectly legitimate & sensible international agreements on sharing financial/taxation information with the aim of reducing international tax evasion.

 

What he also seems to struggle with, not just him, but some posters on here, is that Thai tax / Financial laws do not need change, to comply with an International Agreement.

 

Siam Legal are a big Company, who I assume are legitimate.

 

 

[jas007]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

What he also seems to struggle with, not just him, but some posters on here, is that Thai tax / Financial laws do not need change, to comply with an International Agreement.

 

Perhaps he is aware of that? That's my guess.  Thai tax law is just that. Thai tax law.  That doesn't mean that an International Treaty doesn't mean exactly what it says.  

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, jas007 said:

Perhaps he is aware of that? That's my guess.

 

You could be correct, but having watched a good few of his videos, I even posted one on 1 of the tax threads, I was never convinced that he understood what CRS was about.

 

@mfd101  appears to be drawing the same conclusion.

[jas007]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You could be correct, but having watched a good few of his videos, I even posted one on 1 of the tax threads, I was never convinced that he understood what CRS was about.

 

@mfd101  appears to be drawing the same conclusion.

 So an additional Thai law focused on compliance with its International obligations for reporting tax information.  Doesn't really conflict with the tax treaties, but rather a banking obligation and a requirement for anyone wanting an account at banks that demand the report.  Maybe Hart just figures that's between the bank and its customers.  You may be right, though.  Maybe he doesn't understand the ramifications, as nearly all expats in Thailand who are or will be tax residents will have a Thai bank account. 

[CanadaSam]

So, the first question (for me) that needs to be answered, is does anybody know of a reliable, reasonable accounting firm in Pattaya?  Thank you in advance for any suggestions!

[scubascuba3]

Some of the so called experts he is referring to are on this thread, maybe they should find a hobby instead 

[StraightTalk]

10 hours ago, mfd101 said:

What Mr Hart appears not to know or understand is that at least some expats (eg Australians) have been forced by their home banks - under threat of having their bank accounts closed - to get and record in Oz their TIN.

This has not been my experience. The banks I deal with - Macquarie Bank and NAB - as well as Computershare, have consistently accepted Reason 'B' since at least 2016, along with a brief explanation of why, as the account or security holder, I am not required to obtain a TIN. None of them have ever threatened to close my accounts.

[zombie nights]

Thank you Mr. Hart for exposing the scam artists trying unnecessarily to scare and frighten especially the retired community living peacefully in Thailand.

[henryford1958]

Despite all the posts i still don't know as a retired expat living off a pre taxed UK pension, do i submit a tax return next year or not. I already had a TIN.

[BritManToo]

Just now, henryford1958 said:

Despite all the posts i still don't know as a retired expat living off a pre taxed UK pension, do i submit a tax return next year or not. I already had a TIN.

Wait .......... Do nothing ...... See what happens

[cooked]

1. My granddaughter spent the summer allocating TIN numbers to people that didn't already have one, and this included a few Farangs.

2. I have a Thai ID card for Farangs, and she tells me that the number on that card is the same as your TIN. So all you guys that have the pink card don't need to worry about that. 

3. I watched the video and decided that it was useless, at least in my case.

4. At the local tax office they don't know what is going to happen, and they will likely as not interpret all this in their own inimitable, Thai fashion. So WAIT and see.

4. I asked at Immigration, their reply was "Why worry about something that hasn't happened yet?". I agree.

Just WAIT

[homeseeker]

There are rumors circulating that complaints have been lodged about non-Thai unqualified persons giving false and misleading tax information and advice and that arrest warrants may be issued soon...

[Pouatchee]

11 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Siam Legal are a big Company, who I assume are legitimate.

legitimate don't mean competent. I dealt with this company and they are far below par.

[Digitalbanana]

20 minutes ago, henryford1958 said:

Despite all the posts i still don't know as a retired expat living off a pre taxed UK pension, do i submit a tax return next year or not. I already had a TIN.

Did you submit one previous years? If not what has changed?

[Moonlover]

11 hours ago, mfd101 said:

"Mr Hart stresses that Thai financial laws have not changed and states that “most” foreigners who are tax residents are ill-advised to request a TIN number from their local TRD.  Although the video does not elaborate on “most”, it appears to include those resident in Thailand for at least 180 days in 2024 who are dependent on pensions pre-taxed in their first country.  It is this large, mainly retiree group which has attracted the greatest attention."

 

What Mr Hart appears not to know or understand is that at least some expats (eg Australians) have been forced by their home banks - under threat of having their bank accounts closed - to get and record in Oz their TIN. All based on the perfectly legitimate & sensible international agreements on sharing financial/taxation information with the aim of reducing international tax evasion.

That's a bit unfortunate for you guys, however Mr Hart says that most expats will not need to obtain a TIN. He can't be expected to cover all contingences in a 5 minute sound bite.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Secondly, I don't know who the foreign tax charlatans are that he refers to

 

Mr Hart made a specific video aboutbthe guy who said " All Foreigners need to obtain a TIN " Cannot remember the guys name, but he was an American, that Mr Hart claimed worked for the IRS.

 

Quite a ranty video and worth a watch if you wish to dig it out.

 

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Firstly, "Thai tax law has not changed" - yes it has Por 161 changed Thai tax law, as did Por 162.

 

Possible semantics, but causing confusion.  The Law has not changed, POR 161 / 162 tweaked the meaning of the current Law.

 

8 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Fourthly, I agree that "the vast majority of" expat pensioners will not be impacted by the new rules (the ones he says haven't been made, a slight contradiction in terms).

 

The foreigners from 61 Countries who's income is non taxable in Thailand due to DTA's will not be impacted. What % of the expat community this makes up, I have no idea, but like others, I would think it would be above 50%.

 

Impacted, for me is an interesting word.

 

Is getting off your arse once a year to file a tax return, pay no tax, really being impacted ?
 

The small portion of retiree expats that have to get off their arse, file a tax return, and possibly pay some tax, will be impacted.

 

So Mr Hart and all the others, who say that the vast majority of expat pensioners will not be impacted, are absolutely correct.

 

Like you, I would be taking for gospel, what the Revenue Code says about who, and when someone has to file a tax return.

 

Which was explained rather nicely, in the Siam Legal Video above, and countless other videos, produced by various other Tax Consultancies.

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Mr Hart made a specific video aboutbthe guy who said " All Foreigners need to obtain a TIN " Cannot remember the guys name, but he was an American, that Mr Hart claimed worked for the IRS.

 

Quite a ranty video and worth a watch if you wish to dig it out.

 

 

Possible semantics, but causing confusion.  The Law has not changed, POR 161 / 162 tweaked the meaning of the current Law.

 

 

The foreigners from 61 Countries who's income is non taxable in Thailand due to DTA's will not be impacted. What % of the expat community this makes up, I have no idea, but like others, I would think it would be above 50%.

 

Impacted, for me is an interesting word.

 

Is getting off your arse once a year to file a tax return, pay no tax, really being impacted ?
 

The small portion of retiree expats that have to get off their arse, file a tax return, and possibly pay some tax, will be impacted.

 

So Mr Hart and all the others, who say that the vast majority of expat pensioners will not be impacted, are absolutely correct.

 

Like you, I would be taking for gospel, what the Revenue Code says about who, and when someone has to file a tax return.

 

Which was explained rather nicely, in the Siam Legal Video above, and countless other videos, produced by various other Tax Consultancies.

Yes, I had forgotten about that particular charlatan, the one who said everyone needs a tax ID.

 

"Is getting off your arse once a year to file a tax return, pay no tax, really being impacted ?" This is the key issue for many people, I agree, do we follow the rules precisely, the way they are written or will somebody from TRD stand up and tell us exactly what they want us to do......frustrating. As said, in the absence of anyone standing up and telling us, I'm going to err on the side of caution, what others decide to do is their decision.

[Celsius]

1 hour ago, zombie nights said:

Thank you Mr. Hart for exposing the scam artists trying unnecessarily to scare and frighten especially the retired community living peacefully in Thailand.

 

User name definitely checks out

[Hamus Yaigh]

12 hours ago, mfd101 said:

some expats (eg Australians) have been forced by their home banks - under threat of having their bank accounts closed - to get and record in Oz their TIN.

To keep or open any new bank or brokerage account outside Thailand needs a TIN these days. Many expats in Thailand have only a Thai TIN available to them if they don't have one in another country. Other than that little has changed has it, besides a social media frenzy, and expats have not been approached by Thai authorities about any changes because until now there are not any? 

[chiang mai]

Just now, Hamus Yaigh said:

To keep or open any new bank or brokerage account outside Thailand needs a TIN these days. Many expats in Thailand have only a Thai TIN available to them if they don't have one in another country. Other than that little has changed has it, besides a social media frenzy, and expats have not been approached by Thai authorities about any changes? 

I don't think that's correct, many people have TIN's for a number of countries they do business in, have investments in etc etc I have TIN equivalents from three countries, including Thailand, it's nothing more than a form of identification.

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, StraightTalk said:

This has not been my experience. The banks I deal with - Macquarie Bank and NAB - as well as Computershare, have consistently accepted Reason 'B' since at least 2016, along with a brief explanation of why, as the account or security holder, I am not required to obtain a TIN. None of them have ever threatened to close my accounts.

It was the NAB that closed down my 2 accounts & would not accept my 'Reason B'. I had to get a TIN here in Surin then wait a couple of weeks more till they were satisfied & reopened my accounts. It is possible that I may not have helped myself by pointing out to the bank that sending me threatening letters with deadlines via snail-mail to rural Thailand was not a sign of an efficient & effective organisation ...

 

There have been others here on AN who say they have had the same experience.

[sandyf]

16 minutes ago, Hamus Yaigh said:

To keep or open any new bank or brokerage account outside Thailand needs a TIN these days. Many expats in Thailand have only a Thai TIN available to them if they don't have one in another country. Other than that little has changed has it, besides a social media frenzy, and expats have not been approached by Thai authorities about any changes because until now there are not any? 

I don't know where you got the first sentence from, not the UK. With 2 separate banks I was asked to confirm where I paid tax but no number required.

I would agree with last statement, those that would  need to pay tax should know and do what should always have been done. Those that wouldn't need to pay tax should wait for further clarification. I cannot see the RD putting work into chasing returns where there is nothing, or very little, to be gained.

In due course we  may see something like the HMRC guidance on if a return is required.

[Hamus Yaigh]

31 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I don't think that's correct, many people have TIN's for a number of countries they do business in

Not all. I am an example where I have worked in multiple countries around the world on international type contracts where taxes in those countries were handled by agents, not usually shown to me, and my only TIN available is from Thailand where I had to go and ask for one to show my overseas banks as ID.

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Many expats in Thailand have only a Thai TIN available to them if they don't have one in another country.

Just curious, shouldn't all expats have a TIN from their home country of citizenship? You could use that to open a bank account outside of Thailand if you don't have a Thai TIN.

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just curious, shouldn't all expats have a TIN from their home country of citizenship? If not, how did one grow up and work in their own home country without a Tax ID?

 

Yes, the issue ( for some )  is that they may not be called TIN's in their home Countries

 

The UK for example would be an NI Number and from about 2009 you could also have an UTR, if you self assess for tax.

[JohnnyBD]

7 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, the issue ( for some )  is that they may not be called TIN's in their home Countries

 

The UK for example would be an NI Number and from about 2009 you could also have an UTR, if you self assess for tax.

So, in the UK, the NI number or UTR number serves as the Tax ID. In the US, our SSN (Social Security) number serves as our Tax ID. So, we all have a number for tax purposes in our respective countries.

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

"Is getting off your arse once a year to file a tax return, pay no tax, really being impacted ?" This is the key issue for many people, I agree, do we follow the rules precisely, the way they are written or will somebody from TRD stand up and tell us exactly what they want us to do......frustrating.

 

 

For me it is fairly logical.

 

You plan for the worse, by following the rules, which for some will mean getting off their arse, obtaining a TIN and filing a tax return.

 

If the RD then make an announcement along the lines of " People from Countries with a DTA with Thailand need to do nothing " then that is a bonus.

 

The problem with that bonus, is that it is not going to happen, due to the reporting rules of CRS.

 

If someone is from CRS Country and remit money into Thailand, an audit trail will have to be established to ensure that someone is not engaged in tax avoidance / evasion. Which oddly enough, is the main aim of CRS.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

So, in the UK, the NI number or UTR number serves as the Tax ID. In the US, our SSN (Social Security) number serves as our Tax ID. So, we all have a number for tax purposes in our respective countries.

 

Yes.