Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Dah fahrang]

2 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

Deducted the UK tax amount from what?  

 

The original post gave me the impression that the UK tax paid was deducted from the amount of the remittance. It should not be deducted from the amount of the remittance, but from the amount of Thai tax payable. The above does not clarify.

Thanks for this. Having decided to 'try the system' it was important to me to openly establish that a deduction was being made. I'm no accountant, so my method of doing this might be wrong. But at least the 'dam has been breached'. 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

A DTA does not say that a particular pension escapes Thai Tax Law, rules and regulations. It says that it is only taxable in Country X, Y or Z.

Are you really that stupid? How is a pension only taxable in home country, per DTA, also taxable in Thailand?

 

I really think you have a screw loose. This conversation has become more than absurd.

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Royal Decree-18 came out in 2009 (?) noting DTAs could make some income exempt. 

 

Exempt from what ?
 

Exempt from Thai tax ? Or Exempt from tax filing ?
 

2 very different things 

 

 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

1 minute ago, Dah fahrang said:

Thanks for this. Having decided to 'try the system' it was important to me to openly establish that a deduction was being made. I'm no accountant, so my method of doing this might be wrong. But at least the 'dam has been breached'. 

 

I think that your experience at the RD highlights the fact that neither the current Thai tax forms, nor rank-and-file RD staff, are capable of properly accounting for foreign tax credits and similar issues related to international taxation matters.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Are you really that stupid? How is a pension only taxable in home country, per DTA, also taxable in Thailand?

 

 

Where does this say taxable in Thailand ?

 

Quote

A DTA does not say that a particular pension escapes Thai Tax Law, rules and regulations. It says that it is only taxable in Country X, Y or Z.

It helps if you kan reed before calling someone stoopid.

 

Because it really makes you look like a retarded cabbage.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

If you can show me in the Revenue Code where as a ax resident I do not need to declare my Government Pension, by filing a tax return and having it exempt from tax by dint of a DTA, i might listen.

 

Until then, I will go with my interpretation/ understanding, and my local Revenue Office can make a decision on whether it needs to be declared and filed on a tax return.

Please, file your Thai tax return, declare your UK govt pension -- taxable only by UK, per DTA -- and pay whatever Thai tax is arrived at. Since there are no lines for tax credits against non assesable income -- pay the tax as if it were assessable income. Then, I would feel justice has been done.

[Dah fahrang]

2 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

I think that your experience at the RD highlights the fact that neither the current Thai tax forms, nor rank-and-file RD staff, are capable of properly accounting for foreign tax credits and similar issues related to international taxation matters.

Absolutely. That's why I did it! 

[oldcpu]

12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Exempt from what ?
 

Exempt from Thai tax ? Or Exempt from tax filing ?
 

2 very different things 

 

 

 

if it was exempt from Thai tax and not from filing, there would be an entry in the English AND Thai tax forms under tax exemptions.  There is no entry in any 2017 to 2023 English/Thai nor 2024 (Thai) in the tax form exemption list.

 

So by deduction that is exempt from including that income in the tax calculation in the tax forms.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Please, file your Thai tax return, declare your UK govt pension -- taxable only by UK, per DTA -- and pay whatever Thai tax is arrived at.

 

Why would I pay tax when it is only taxable in the UK.

 

I am working on Revenue Code Section 40, Part 1, pensions are assessable income.

 

The UK - Thai DTA states that it is only taxable in the UK, therefore will be exempt Thai income tax, and will be yet another " Null " filing.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

if it was exempt from Thai tax and not from filing, there would be an entry in the English AND Thai tax forms under tax exemptions.  There is no entry in any 2017 to 2023 English/Thai nor 2024 (Thai) in the tax form exemption list.

 

So by deduction that is exempt from including that income in the tax calculation in the tax forms.

 

If that is what you believe, crack on and do what you think is best for you.

 

Honestly, I couldn't care less what you do.

[oldcpu]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

If that is what you believe, crack on and do what you think is best for you.

 

Honestly, I couldn't care less what you do.

 

Ok.

 

I do hope your approach works for you.  I think thou, your situation is the DTA of your source country allows Thailand AND the source country to both tax some of your foreign sourced income.

 

I believe (if correct) that has influenced your view.

 

That is VERY different from countries whose DTA only allows only the source country to tax a specific income (and not Thailand).

 

I do caution you not to include a tax exempt income if there is no place to deduct that income in the tax form.  You could end up paying tax on that tax exempt income.  I wish you all the best in sorting any problems that may cause you.

 

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

I do hope your approach works for you.  I think thou, your situation is the DTA of your source country allows Thailand AND the source country to both tax some of your foreign sourced income.

 

You think wrong. UK Government Pensions are only taxable in the UK.

 

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

I do caution you not to include a tax exempt income if there is no place to deduct that income in the tax form.  You could end up paying tax on that tax exempt income.

 

It doesn't really matter to me what places / spaces are available. I will be claiming a complete exemption from Thai Income Tax by way of DTA. In theory it only needs 2 spaces / Places

 

Income Remitted

 

Income exempt

 

A copy of UK - Thai DTA attached.

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

You think wrong. UK Government Pensions are only taxable in the UK.

 

 

It doesn't really matter to me what places / spaces are available. I will be claiming a complete exemption from Thai Income Tax by way of DTA. In theory it only needs 2 spaces / Places

 

Income Remitted

 

Income exempt

 

A copy of UK - Thai DTA attached.

 

In what line in the tax form do you plan to enter the exemption, and what is the precise description in the tax form for that line entry?

 

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

In what line in the tax form do you plan to enter the exemption, and what is the precise description in the tax form for that line entry?

 

 

I'll have an answer to that, when.

 

1. The updated English forms make an appearance, or

 

2. Whatever the Revenue Office advise.

 

 

[JimGant]

14 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

In what line in the tax form do you plan to enter the exemption, and what is the precise description in the tax form for that line entry?

Hey, don't confuse him. It's already apparent he's fixated on a non sequitor.

[TheAppletons]

5 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Assessable is a concept within the Thai tax code.

 

I know we're in Thailand, but do try out the laws of logic.   Good things will, shirley, come your way.

 

The law of identity:    assessable is assessable.
The law of non-contradiction:   assessable is not non-assessable.
The law of excluded middle:   Either assessable or non-assessable.

 

Try getting your head around that concept.

 

  I'm not sure why anyone is doubting that "assessable" is in the Thai tax code:

 

  "2.TAX BASE

2.1 Assessable Income

Income chargeable to the PIT is called “assessable income”. The term covers income both in cash and in kind. Therefore, any benefits provided by an employer or other persons, such as a rent-free house or the amount of tax paid by the employer on behalf of the employee, is also treated as assessable income of the employee for the purpose of PIT. Assessable income is divided into 8 categories as follows ....."

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  I'm not sure why anyone is doubting that "assessable" is in the Thai tax code:

 

  "2.TAX BASE

2.1 Assessable Income

Income chargeable to the PIT is called “assessable income”. The term covers income both in cash and in kind. Therefore, any benefits provided by an employer or other persons, such as a rent-free house or the amount of tax paid by the employer on behalf of the employee, is also treated as assessable income of the employee for the purpose of PIT. Assessable income is divided into 8 categories as follows ....."

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

 

Apparently he thinks specifying "assessable" doesn't relate to what "non-assessable" entails.

 

US federal election law says "citizens", either native or naturalized, have the right to vote.  Under his interpretation, the law didn't specifically say "non-citizens", therefore illegal aliens are eligible to vote in US federal elections.

 

Y'see, the law just says this particular category CAN vote.  It doesn't specifically say that category can NOT.  Therefore, I'ma go with the interpretation of some legal huckster on the intertubes trying to drum up business for his amulance-chasing lawfirm.

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

I'm not sure why anyone is doubting that "assessable" is in the Thai tax code:

 

I

13 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

ncome is divided into 8 categories as follows ....."

 

Yes, it is apparently so difficult to understand

 

Category 1 ( of 8 )

 

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

 

Where the issue lies is with some trying to morph Pensions, into non - assessable.

[NoDisplayName]

57 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

In theory it only needs 2 spaces / Places

 

Income Remitted

 

Income exempt

 

Neither of those spaces exist.

 

You have multiple spaces to list your various categories of assessable income.

You have no spaces to list non-assessable income.

You have no space indicated as "remitted."

 

You have one line for specific exemptions relating solely to Thai income.

You have no line to exempt non-assessable foreign income.

You have no line to claim a DTA.

You have no line to claim a tax credit.

 

Have you filed yet?

 

How'd that work out for you?

[The Cyclist]

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

 

Neither of those spaces exist.

 

You have multiple spaces to list your various categories of income.

You have no space indicated as "remitted."

 

You have one line for specific exemptions relating solely to Thai income.

You have no line to exempt foreign income.

You have no line to claim a DTA.

You have no line to claim a tax credit.

 

Have you filed yet?

 

How'd that work out for you?

 

English comprehension issues again ?
 

50 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'll have an answer to that, when.

 

1. The updated English forms make an appearance, or

 

2. Whatever the Revenue Office advise.

 

 

 

I still have 2 and a bit months to file, no need to repeat yourself on a daily basis on the subject. You come across as being a bit OCD.

 

You can get help for that.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Dah fahrang said:

Thanks for this. Good to know a mistake was made in my calculation method. 

Still, its better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all.

 

And there's the problem.

 

We allegedly have a right under DTA and Thai tax law to claim a foreign tax credit, but no way to do so on the forms.

 

The only way I can see around this is manual intervention by a TRD supervisor, massaging the data files on the computer.

 

We cannot do this ourselves with the current forms.

[NoDisplayName]

55 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'll have an answer to that, when.

 

1. The updated English forms make an appearance, or

 

2. Whatever the Revenue Office advise.

 

 

 

Today is day 22 of tax filing season.

 

That's 25% of the period gone already.

 

You still think new, revised forms are coming?

 

Forms that do NOT match the Thai forms, having different filing declaration requirements?

 

You think everyone who has already filed will have to re-file?

 

You think foreigners will be required to use English forms, and not be permitted to use the more desirable Thai forms without the reporting requirements?

 

Ha.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Dah fahrang said:

Thanks for this. Having decided to 'try the system' it was important to me to openly establish that a deduction was being made. I'm no accountant, so my method of doing this might be wrong. But at least the 'dam has been breached'. 

 

What you did was a "light" version of what everyone else does.

We self-determine assessablility of remittances.

 

Non-assessable income is disregarded when filing a return, removed from the equation before beginning Thai PIT calculations.

You "disregarded" your tax credit amount by deducting it before your remittances went into the system.

 

Unfortunately, that mistake would cost you.  Had you owed tax, you would have gained a 2,000 baht reduction in tax owed when you should have received the entire 39,000 baht paid as foreign tax.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

Today is day 22 of tax filing season.

 

That's 25% of the period gone already.

 

And ?
 

It means that there is 75% of the time still remaining.

 

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

You still think new, revised forms are coming?

 

Couldn't care less

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I'll have an answer to that, when.

 

1. The updated English forms make an appearance, or

 

2. Whatever the Revenue Office advise.

 

 

3 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

You think foreigners will be required to use English forms, and not be permitted to use the more desirable Thai forms without the reporting requirements?

 

I believe tax forms can be filled in either Thai or English.

 

Still no idea why you are getting your knickers in a twist.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

For what it is worth, I believe you have done the correct thing and used this correctly ( Even if the paperwork is a bit off )

 

 

And despite all the backwards and forwards on here. When I file with my Government Pension I will be using this

 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

 

I believe that to utilise a DTA, you have to file to make the claim.

 

Too late, when and if you get a knock on the door to explain why you haven't filed.

 

And again you misunderstand.

A tax credit is deducted from tax due, not from remittance.

Read the excerpt you yourself posted.

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

2)   Credit method

The resident country retains the right to tax the income which was already taxed in the source country. It calculates its tax on the basis of the taxpayer's total income including income from the other country which according to the DTA is taxed in that other country. However, it allows a deduction from its own tax for the tax paid in the other country

 

A deduction from tax.

Not a deduction prior to the tax calculations.

 

Please stop giving bad advice.

 

You haven't filed. 

 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

And again you misunderstand.

A tax credit is deducted from tax due, not from remittance.

Read the excerpt you yourself posted.

 

Are you somewhat challenged ?
 

I never mentioned anything about a tax credit being deducted from anywhere.

 

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

A deduction from tax.

Not a deduction prior to the tax calculations.

 

Please stop giving bad advice.

 

Mentalism at its finest

 

Posting a copy of the RD Credit Method. Is not giving anyone advice.

 

I said I believed he had done the right thing in filing. I made not a single comment on what he did to file, during the filing, or finishing his filing.

 

Now cease and desist with your absolute claptrap,sort your English comprehension skills out, or I will start reporting every post you make, when your comprehension skills are abysmal.

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

In what line in the tax form do you plan to enter the exemption, and what is the precise description in the tax form for that line entry?

 

 

You don't understand either. Thailand signed the CRS treaty.

So did Kenya and Nigeria.

 

Sure, Singapore did as well, and they specifically notify foreign tax-residents that non-assessable income is not to be reported.  But that's Singapore.   They're not exactly known as a country of law-abiderers!

[NoDisplayName]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Are you somewhat challenged ?
 

I never mentioned anything about a tax credit being deducted from anywhere.

 

The post you responded to and quoted:

 

In the absence of any clear ruling by TRD on this, and the lack of appropriate space on Form 90 to declare foreign tax paid, plus the fact that I am obliged by law to file for Thai Tax by the end of March, I unilaterally claimed a tax credit by deduction.

 

Your reply:

 

For what it is worth, I believe you have done the correct thing and used this correctly ( Even if the paperwork is a bit off )

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

10 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Now cease and desist with your absolute claptrap,sort your English comprehension skills out, or I will start reporting every post you make, when your comprehension skills are abysmal.

 

Oh, pu-lease, Brer Cyclist, puh-lease don't t'row me in da 'sessable patch!

[The Cyclist]

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

Your reply:

 

For what it is worth, I believe you have done the correct thing and used this correctly ( Even if the paperwork is a bit off )

 

If he has already filed, how  can I be giving him advice ?
 

I did of course, mean filing and using tax credits, even if the form was a bit off.

 

I believe it was actually the RD Official that actually entered it onto the computer. So if there is an error, that error was caused by the RD Official.

 

PND 91, the form the RD Official drafted for me is for 

 

Quote

Personal Income Tax Return for taxpayer with only income from employment under Section 40 (1) of the Revenue Code Only

 

Income from employment under Section 40 ( 1 )

 

Quote

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment

 

For a single Pension, she did draft the correct form, even if it is not currently correct for 2024 filing.

 

So yet again. I will take direction from the RD Office, rather than anonymous internet pixels, who appears to have severe English Comprehension problems.