I agree with that Dinsdale - let's wait and find out what was wrong . . .

11 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

 

Gott - it would be amazing if the concrete supports did not have reinforcement steel as usual ! Quite unbelievable !

 

Armoured steel ? Never heard of it, except in military applications.

 

IMO, unlikely that the concrete was below spec.

 

We'll see . . . .

ok, maybe I used the wrong wording, but I am sure you understand I meant the steel used to reinforce concrete pillars.

As they obviously cut the initial price tag from 2,5 billion to  380 million I would say it´s very likely the whole building was sub standard.

14 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

 

Gott - it would be amazing if the concrete supports did not have reinforcement steel as usual ! Quite unbelievable !

 

Armoured steel ? Never heard of it, except in military applications.

 

IMO, unlikely that the concrete was below spec.

 

We'll see . . . .

Why would u say its unlikely the concrete below spec ??  it would be one of the main reasons along with the reo,  if you look at the picture on other post you will see lots of reo  but unkown if meets spec

dont think the public will ever find out the reasons big cover up as normal

5 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

So blatantly photoshopped its pathetic. Where do you get that? Source?

 

I depise the Chinese but hate even more folks who screw  up our fight with BS

think you are wrong  go look other news  you will see same columns

https://world.thaipbs.or.th/detail/contract-for-state-audit-office-construction-under-scrutiny/57041

5 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

Why would u say its unlikely the concrete below spec ??  it would be one of the main reasons along with the reo,  if you look at the picture on other post you will see lots of reo  but unkown if meets spec

dont think the public will ever find out the reasons big cover up as normal

 

Hi Mike - maybe I'm being naive - does anyone know anything factual about the existence of lower grades of concrete at lower prices ? Maybe I am being naive, but it seems unconscionable to me that sub-spec material would be used in a 23 floor structure. It will be a shame if we are not given the truth when investigations are completed.

8 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

think you are wrong  go look other news  you will see same columns

https://world.thaipbs.or.th/detail/contract-for-state-audit-office-construction-under-scrutiny/57041

I just ran it through an analyzer and it is edited, unfortunately, Im not smart enough to know how to tell you how.

There is a video showing the ground floor pillars breaking in half as the building goes down 

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/15wG4o6rGK/

44 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

 

Gott - it would be amazing if the concrete supports did not have reinforcement steel as usual ! Quite unbelievable !

 

Armoured steel ? Never heard of it, except in military applications.

 

IMO, unlikely that the concrete was below spec.

 

We'll see . . . .

Look at this. You can see a supporting structure blow out at 0:24 This looks like it's the failure (maybe other points this happened also?) that brought the whole thing down. Looks like the concrete to me but I'm obviously not a structural engineer.

 

11 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

 I just ran it through an analyzer and it is edited, unfortunately, Im not smart enough to know how to tell you how.

Just because it has been edited doesn't mean the columns depicted are not "for real."

15 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

 

Hi Mike - maybe I'm being naive - does anyone know anything factual about the existence of lower grades of concrete at lower prices ? Maybe I am being naive, but it seems unconscionable to me that sub-spec material would be used in a 23 floor structure. It will be a shame if we are not given the truth when investigations are completed.

Cement Grade	Compressive Strength (After 28 Days)	Applications	Key Features
33 Grade	33 MPa	Plastering, masonry work, low-strength concrete	- Suitable for non-load-bearing structures - Economical for basic projects - Less commonly used today
43 Grade	43 MPa	Residential buildings, precast concrete	- Versatile for medium-load structures - Commonly used in residential and commercial projects
53 Grade	53 MPa	High-rise buildings, bridges, heavy structures	- Ideal for heavy-load and high -rise structures - Gains strength rapidly - Requires careful curing

 Grade 53 should have been used I do not know what the project spec calls for

the thing i can tell you the chinse are in the dark ages when it comes to curing cement they still use bedding straw insted of a curing agent, any how the cost difference between grade 53 and say grade 33 is substantial, once cured the strength can easly measured using a glegg hammer 

3 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

 

 

Look, I know almost nothing about architecture, however I do know that most run of the mill towers these days are built relying on a central core - those thin beams on the edge of the building are not and were never intended to support the entire structure. Also, there is video footage on tiktok showing the building collapse appears to have started at the very top, with the roof collapsing and it dominoes all the way down. Here's an example of a 50 year old tower, still standing, with only a central core:

 

4 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

There is a video showing the ground floor pillars breaking in half and the building goes down 

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/15wG4o6rGK/

True enough, but the collapse appears to have been already well underway when the ground floor pillars buckle as evidenced by the ballooning cloud of dust visible behind the pillars.

10 minutes ago, clokwise said:

 

Look, I know almost nothing about architecture, however I do know that most run of the mill towers these days are built relying on a central core - those thin beams on the edge of the building are not and were never intended to support the entire structure. Also, there is video footage on tiktok showing the building collapse appears to have started at the very top, with the roof collapsing and it dominoes all the way down. Here's an example of a 50 year old tower, still standing, with only a central core:

 

The Building was A table top design  no center core this design is NOT quake proof

 

10 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

True enough, but the collapse appears to have been already well underway when the ground floor pillars buckle as evidenced by the ballooning cloud of dust visible behind the pillars.

I edited my  comment, was supposed to say 'as the building' not 'and'

Thanks Mike and thanks all for some constructive discussion, (a nice change on this Forum). Simply, the price paid for the structural concrete at this site should be easy to find and conclusions drawn from that.

 

Naive again, to me, it's unconscionable that the wrong grade of concrete would have been used.

 

The consensus seems to be that the building collapsed from the top initially.

 

Mike, re the Chinese and straw curing, I wonder what their record is with highrise structures and building collapses.

 

Thanks again all.

What the heck did they plan to do with these docs? Give them to Winnie the Pooh? ☺️ 

21 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Thanks Mike and thanks all for some constructive discussion, (a nice change on this Forum). Simply, the price paid for the structural concrete at this site should be easy to find and conclusions drawn from that.

 

Naive again, to me, it's unconscionable that the wrong grade of concrete would have been used.

 

The consensus seems to be that the building collapsed from the top initially.

 

Mike, re the Chinese and straw curing, I wonder what their record is with highrise structures and building collapses.

 

Thanks again all.

Not saying that the wrong cement was used that is up to the investigation

CREC the chinse side of the join venture Has No experince in high rise building

where i come from we do due diligence on contract tender  this contractor would not have made the list

4 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

 

 

That's a lovely photo!  What does it mean?

Are you a structural engineer?

What do you know of building design standards?

Do you know for a fact that is against code?

 

If that is NOT normal/standard construction, then is that what the plans called for?  If so, who designed the building, who certified the plans, who approved it?

 

Did the construction joint venture build what was called for in the contract?  As long as approved materials were used.........

 

The government had their own inspectors on site throughout the process.  They had the blueprints, they saw the same planks of wood holding up the building.  They approved construction up to this point.

10 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

What the heck did they plan to do with these docs? Give them to Winnie the Pooh? ☺️ 

 

Dunno....maybe protect them from local authorities destroying the evidence that building plans were followed and approved materials were used in construction?

Re. 'planks of wood' - I can't see them . . .

 

The outside of the Building looks to be insulation material between the floors and  starting to install cladding at the lower level on one side?

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

That's a lovely photo!  What does it mean?

Are you a structural engineer?

What do you know of building design standards?

Do you know for a fact that is against code?

 

If that is NOT normal/standard construction, then is that what the plans called for?  If so, who designed the building, who certified the plans, who approved it?

 

Did the construction joint venture build what was called for in the contract?  As long as approved materials were used.........

 

The government had their own inspectors on site throughout the process.  They had the blueprints, they saw the same planks of wood holding up the building.  They approved construction up to this point.

Building Design: Presented by FORUM ARCHITECT Co. Ltd. in 2018 and Meinhardt (Thailand) Ltd. (structural design) with a budget of 73 million baht

Construction: Budget of 2,560 million baht ($75.4 million), contracted to ITD-CREC (Italian-Thai Development Public Company Limited) joint venture with China Railway for 2,136 million baht ($62.9 million), below the median price. Payments of 966.80 million baht ($28.5 million) have already been disbursed

Supervision: Contracted to PKW Joint Venture for 74.65 million baht ($2.2 million) to supervise and certify material quality testing

( who certified the plans, who approved it?)  Goverment Committe approved the design

As this was the cheapest bid you can reasonably assume  cheap materials would be used

2 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

As this was the cheapest bid you can reasonably assume  cheap materials would be used

 

Depends what latitude they had.  Likely none on construction materials, particularly steel and concrete.

 

More discretion perhaps, although would still have to be approved, for using different materials for the cladding or interior flooring, or the thickness of the drywall room dividers.  Possibly might have substituted gold colored toilets in place of solid gold fittings in the executive washrooms.

Just seen a video on Fab Pattaya News 103 - you can clearly see that the top floor started collapsing at the side where the crane was sited on top?

Nothing surprising about this .. I lived in Thong Lo area for a year. All construction sites display accident count signs at the entrance. NONE out of many never displayed ANY ACCIDENTS... all read zero and I walked around this area for a year almost every day.

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Depends what latitude they had.  Likely none on construction materials, particularly steel and concrete.

 

More discretion perhaps, although would still have to be approved, for using different materials for the cladding or interior flooring, or the thickness of the drywall room dividers.  Possibly might have substituted gold colored toilets in place of solid gold fittings in the executive washrooms.

 I dont know only guessing  but this would have been cut to the bone and a lot of matrial would have been substituted  but has to be proved,  there is one certain is the design was incorrect any first year student can find that out Table top buildings are not quake proof  not recommend

7 minutes ago, StandardIssue said:

Nothing surprising about that. All kinds of graft and fraud going on in BKK. I lived in Thong Lo area for a year. All construction sites display accident count signs at the entrance. NONE out of many never displayed ANY ACCIDENTS... all read zero and I walked around this area for a year almost every day.

That is a totally new subject  Thailand has a very very poor safety record  its toooooooo expensive to implement safety

is  Anutin and/or some of his family members are related/investors/stock holders on a construction company, just checking for a friend

2 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

I'm always amazed to see how 'flimsy' these buidings under construction look. But surely it's the Architects for the project who specify and monitor construction and their necks may be on the line.

 

The THB 258 million reduction in the project quote could of course be connected to some criminal corruption.

 

Perhaps the structure after investigation, will be found to be in line with normal standards.

 

Or maybe unbeknown, the structure of the ground deep below made that spot, is particularly vulnerable to earthquake disturbance - not everywhere shakes to the same extent during an earthquake . . . .

 

Pity and R.I.P. the poor souls caught up in this.

 

But the architects have to assume that the builders will use the specified materials. But they probably didn't... 

"This edifice". Very impressive and creative use of the English language

4 hours ago, actonion said:

Chinese style

Recommend all to watch, fascinating and will give a better balance concerning "Chinese style". Perhaps a qualifier ... like "modern" or "current" Chinese style?