European leaders during talks in Washington tried to convey to US President Donald Trump the dangers of possible concessions to Russia on Ukrainian territories, particularly the rest of the Donetsk region, reports The Wall Street Journal.

 

A US-prepared map of eastern Ukraine, reviewed by Trump and Volodymyr Zelenskyy, showed that Russia already controls about 76% of the Donetsk region. This region, which the Kremlin claims in full, contains some of Ukraine’s strongest defensive fortifications.

 

To explain the scale of the threat, European leaders used examples that Trump could understand:

German Chancellor Friedrich Merz said that Moscow’s demand for all of Donbas is equivalent to asking the US to give up Florida.

During closed-door talks, Finnish President Alexander Stubb described the eastern Ukrainian cities of Kramatorsk and Sloviansk as a bastion against the Huns.

 

European leaders explained to Trump why Ukraine can't hand Donbas to Russia, WSJ

 

According to the media's sources, this metaphor made the strongest impression on Trump!

 

 

4 minutes ago, bannork said:

I like to think sleepy Joe never dreamt of US soldiers kneeling to lay a red carpet for a murderous dictator to walk on.

What a long way the US has fallen.

Please tell us the facts accomplished by Biden to end the war.

 

So, it sounds like you’re against ending the war only because Trump is facilitating.

 

Classic leftist idiot ideology.

How much horse manure does a man have to listen to? 

Just look at Zelensky's  expression, lol.

 

The president of war-torn Ukraine looked shocked when Donald Trump described Washington DC as “the most unsafe place anywhere” during a meeting at the White House.

 

Volodymyr Zelensky was in the Oval Office for talks about bringing an end to Russia’s brutal invasion of his country which has seen civilians bombed on a near-daily basis.

 

During questions from the press, President Trump began discussing his federal takeover of the capital which he described as “the most unsafe place anywhere” before his unprecedented deployment of the National Guard.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, bannork said:

I like to think sleepy Joe never dreamt of US soldiers kneeling to lay a red carpet for a murderous dictator to walk on.

What a long way the US has fallen.

He certainly gave the green light for 13 American soldiers to be slaughtered on the tarmac during the botched Afghanistan withdrawal. 

13 minutes ago, Tug said:

mentally ill

LOL

2 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

Please tell us the facts accomplished by Biden to end the war.

 

So, it sounds like you’re against ending the war only because Trump is facilitating.

 

Classic leftist idiot ideology.

To end the war is very simple:

 

1. Give or sell to Ukraine all the weapons it needs.

2. Crank up the 'beautiful' tariffs against China and India if they buy Russian oil or gas. 

3. Release or encourage the EU to release all the seized, frozen Russian funds to buy more weapons for Ukraine.

 

show Putin he is an international pariah and will remain so. Don't kowtow like a teenager in love with some stupid star.

 

6 minutes ago, bannork said:

To end the war is very simple:

 

1. Give or sell to Ukraine all the weapons it needs.

2. Crank up the 'beautiful' tariffs against China and India if they buy Russian oil or gas. 

3. Release or encourage the EU to release all the seized, frozen Russian funds to buy more weapons for Ukraine.

 

show Putin he is an international pariah and will remain so. Don't kowtow like a teenager in love with some stupid star.

 

Why weren’t you at the White House giving your recommendations?

 

I’m sure the world leaders would listen to an AN poster.  
 

Biden sold weapons to Ukraine.  Why didn’t he END the war?

 

Now, Trump will end Biden’s war.

Lot of dumb lefties on this thread 

 

 

2 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

He certainly gave the green light for 13 American soldiers to be slaughtered on the tarmac during the botched Afghanistan withdrawal. 

 

Trump's secret agreement with the Taleban that didn't include the government of the time.

 

The United States–Taliban deal, officially known as the Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan between the United States of America and the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (commonly known as the Taliban and not recognized by the United States as a state) and commonly known as the Doha Accord,[1] was a peace agreement signed by the United States and the Taliban on 29 February 2020 in Doha, Qatar, with intent to bring an end to the 2001–2021 war in Afghanistan.[2

 

][3] Negotiated for the U.S. by Zalmay Khalilzad for the first Trump administration, the negotiations for the agreement did not involve the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, the Afghan government at the time.

 

[4] The deal, which also had secret annexes, was one of the critical events that caused the collapse of the Afghan National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF).[5] Adhering to the conditions of the deal, the U.S. dramatically reduced the number of U.S. air raids, leaving the ANDSF without a key advantage in keeping the Taliban at bay. This resulted in "a sense of abandonment within the ANDSF and the Afghan population" according to a report by the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR).[6] ANDSF was ill-prepared to sustain security following a U.S. withdrawal, which allowed for the Taliban insurgency, ultimately leading to the Taliban takeover of Kabul on 15 August 2021.[6]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States–Taliban_deal#:~:text=The agreement stipulated fighting restrictions,the Taliban's counter-terrorism commitments.

 

What a disgraceful deal that was.

 

 

1 minute ago, bannork said:

 

Trump's secret agreement with the Taleban that didn't include the government of the time.

 

The United States–Taliban deal, officially known as the Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan between the United States of America and the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (commonly known as the Taliban and not recognized by the United States as a state) and commonly known as the Doha Accord,[1] was a peace agreement signed by the United States and the Taliban on 29 February 2020 in Doha, Qatar, with intent to bring an end to the 2001–2021 war in Afghanistan.[2

 

][3] Negotiated for the U.S. by Zalmay Khalilzad for the first Trump administration, the negotiations for the agreement did not involve the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, the Afghan government at the time.

 

[4] The deal, which also had secret annexes, was one of the critical events that caused the collapse of the Afghan National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF).[5] Adhering to the conditions of the deal, the U.S. dramatically reduced the number of U.S. air raids, leaving the ANDSF without a key advantage in keeping the Taliban at bay. This resulted in "a sense of abandonment within the ANDSF and the Afghan population" according to a report by the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR).[6] ANDSF was ill-prepared to sustain security following a U.S. withdrawal, which allowed for the Taliban insurgency, ultimately leading to the Taliban takeover of Kabul on 15 August 2021.[6]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States–Taliban_deal#:~:text=The agreement stipulated fighting restrictions,the Taliban's counter-terrorism commitments.

 

What a disgraceful deal that was.

 

 

Killed on Biden’s watch.

 

You seem as dumb as @Tug

4 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

Why weren’t you at the White House giving your recommendations?

 

I’m sure the world leaders would listen to an AN poster.  

The world leaders, at least those present at the White House, know exactly what is needed to keep Putin at bay.

Cast iron guarantees that any breaking of a potential agreement will result in immediate and decisive military action against the murderous dictator.

Everybody knows Putin only respects force. 

Everyone except Trump, so enamoured or so in Putin's pocket.

 

4 minutes ago, bannork said:

The world leaders, at least those present at the White House, know exactly what is needed to keep Putin at bay.

Cast iron guarantees that any breaking of a potential agreement will result in immediate and decisive military action against the murderous dictator.

Everybody knows Putin only respects force. 

Everyone except Trump, so enamoured or so in Putin's pocket.

 

So why weren’t you there giving your advice to the world leaders?

13 minutes ago, bannork said:

 

Trump's secret agreement with the Taleban that didn't include the government of the time.

 

The United States–Taliban deal, officially known as the Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan between the United States of America and the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (commonly known as the Taliban and not recognized by the United States as a state) and commonly known as the Doha Accord,[1] was a peace agreement signed by the United States and the Taliban on 29 February 2020 in Doha, Qatar, with intent to bring an end to the 2001–2021 war in Afghanistan.[2

 

][3] Negotiated for the U.S. by Zalmay Khalilzad for the first Trump administration, the negotiations for the agreement did not involve the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, the Afghan government at the time.

 

[4] The deal, which also had secret annexes, was one of the critical events that caused the collapse of the Afghan National Defense and Security Forces (ANDSF).[5] Adhering to the conditions of the deal, the U.S. dramatically reduced the number of U.S. air raids, leaving the ANDSF without a key advantage in keeping the Taliban at bay. This resulted in "a sense of abandonment within the ANDSF and the Afghan population" according to a report by the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR).[6] ANDSF was ill-prepared to sustain security following a U.S. withdrawal, which allowed for the Taliban insurgency, ultimately leading to the Taliban takeover of Kabul on 15 August 2021.[6]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States–Taliban_deal#:~:text=The agreement stipulated fighting restrictions,the Taliban's counter-terrorism commitments.

 

What a disgraceful deal that was.

 

 

Under Biden’s leadership 

 

 

4 hours ago, bannork said:

Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, Oleksiy Makeev, warned against making territorial concessions to Russia, emphasizing that millions of Ukrainians live in the lands Russia seeks to seize, the German news portal tagesschau.de. reports.

 

He also highlighted the unity of Western allies demonstrated during the Washington summit, noting that the democratic world continues to stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine.

 

During his visit to Washington, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy discussed potential scenarios for a peace settlement with Trump. The Ukrainian leader did not rule out that territorial exchanges could appear on the agenda, but stressed that implementing such agreements would be extremely difficult.

 

Not computer game: Ambassador explains why Ukraine can’t give up occupied lands

 

I suspect some discussion will centre around the Legalese concerning "Sovereignty" versus "Territorial Concession". Ukraine might concede territory as de facto controlled by Russia; Russia has de facto sovereignty, but will retain de jure sovereignty. What practical difference will that mean? An end to the war, in some form, with Russia controlling much of the Donbas, will likely result in a relaxation  of sanctions on much of Russia, but not entirely all of Russia.

 

Those areas under de facto Russian control will remain under effectively an embargo. We can look at Northern Cyprus as an example. Northern Cyprus, under Turkish control, remains a relatively squalid country, with an under developed tourist industry. You can't fly there directly, you can't ship anything directly. It all has to go through Turkey. You won't get outside investment there, least not from non-criminals.

 

No Western bank will be investing in mining operations in the Donbas. The Hilton and Holiday Inn groups won't be building hotels in the Crimean riviera. Yes, Crimea has beaches. "Inside Russia" is a Russian Youtuber stuck in Uzbekistan raging most weeks at Putin. But he wasn't always so. He was broadly a pro-American conservative Russian, with a lean towards Putin. So much so, he was calling Crimea Russia's best beach.

 

 

The Kerch Bridge, besides guaranteeing resupply of Crimea, was also built because the oligarchs were busy seizing abandoned hotel properties, with dreams of the same sort of tourism Bulgaria is seeing on nearly AI hell Sunny Beach.

 

 

As long as Ukraine doesn't give up sovereignty, the Donbas will remain this crappy corner of New Russia, filled with shonky North Korean  built apartment blocks, Chinese casinos, and large areas off limits due to UXBs.  The other side of the Line of Control, thanks to mining deals, should in theory, see money pouring in. 

 

Of course establishing that Line of Control is another issue. Last time,

 

 

16 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

Killed on Biden’s watch.

 

You seem as dumb as @Tug

 

 

Appearing on “Anderson Cooper 360,” McMaster argued that Trump bears some responsibility for the Afghanistan withdrawal for his negotiations with the Taliban, including pressure on Afghanistan’s former government to release thousands of Taliban fighters from prison.

 

“What happened in these series of negotiations and concessions to the Taliban is we threw the Afghans under the bus on the way out,” he said.

 

In his blistering, insightful account of his time in the Trump White House, McMaster describes meetings in the Oval Office as “exercises in competitive sycophancy” during which Trump’s advisers would flatter the president by saying stuff like, “Your instincts are always right” or, “No one has ever been treated so badly by the press.” Meanwhile, Trump would say “outlandish” things like, “Why don’t we just bomb the drugs?” in Mexico or, “Why don’t we take out the whole North Korean Army during one of their parades?”

 

Afghanistan withdrawal haunts Biden and Harris as another general raises the alarm about Trump | CNN Politics

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, bannork said:

 

 

Appearing on “Anderson Cooper 360,” McMaster argued that Trump bears some responsibility for the Afghanistan withdrawal for his negotiations with the Taliban, including pressure on Afghanistan’s former government to release thousands of Taliban fighters from prison.

 

“What happened in these series of negotiations and concessions to the Taliban is we threw the Afghans under the bus on the way out,” he said.

 

In his blistering, insightful account of his time in the Trump White House, McMaster describes meetings in the Oval Office as “exercises in competitive sycophancy” during which Trump’s advisers would flatter the president by saying stuff like, “Your instincts are always right” or, “No one has ever been treated so badly by the press.” Meanwhile, Trump would say “outlandish” things like, “Why don’t we just bomb the drugs?” in Mexico or, “Why don’t we take out the whole North Korean Army during one of their parades?”

 

Afghanistan withdrawal haunts Biden and Harris as another general raises the alarm about Trump | CNN Politics

 

 

 

 

I don’t think so.

 

Biden was Commander in Chief, not Trump.

The buck stopped with Biden.

Keep trying.

18 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

I don’t think so.

 

Biden was Commander in Chief, not Trump.

The buck stopped with Biden.

Keep trying.

 

The terrible deal Trump struck with The Taleban. By the way this is all off topic so I won't be surprised if the mods delete the lot.

 

Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation' : NPR

 

Extracts:

 

FILKINS:  The deal basically says the Taliban won't kill any Americans, and we won't attack the Taliban. And if all goes well and the Taliban agree not to support any kind of terrorism against the United States or not to allow terrorists in the country or any kind of bases, the United States will leave and go to zero and take out all of its forces by May 1.

.

GROSS: Trump had way - has a way of defying norms, breaking conventions. Did he defy norms and conventions when he - when his administration negotiated this deal?

 

FILKINS: Well, they did. They did, for sure - for sure. I mean, the first - the most obvious thing about this agreement is that the Afghan government was left out of it. 

 

There's a certain amount of bluffing involved, which is if we don't get the deal we want, we're not going to pull out. But while they were doing that over the course of 2019 and early 2020, President Trump was just kind of unilaterally announcing these troop withdrawals. I'm going to pull everybody out, or I'm going to - we're going to go down to 7,000 troops starting now. And he didn't consult anybody and didn't even necessarily tell his negotiators that he was doing that. So he was like literally kind of taking their sticks away from them at the table as they were doing this.

 

 

26 minutes ago, bannork said:

 

The terrible deal Trump struck with The Taleban. By the way this is all off topic so I won't be surprised if the mods delete the lot.

 

Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation' : NPR

 

Extracts:

 

FILKINS:  The deal basically says the Taliban won't kill any Americans, and we won't attack the Taliban. And if all goes well and the Taliban agree not to support any kind of terrorism against the United States or not to allow terrorists in the country or any kind of bases, the United States will leave and go to zero and take out all of its forces by May 1.

.

GROSS: Trump had way - has a way of defying norms, breaking conventions. Did he defy norms and conventions when he - when his administration negotiated this deal?

 

FILKINS: Well, they did. They did, for sure - for sure. I mean, the first - the most obvious thing about this agreement is that the Afghan government was left out of it. 

 

There's a certain amount of bluffing involved, which is if we don't get the deal we want, we're not going to pull out. But while they were doing that over the course of 2019 and early 2020, President Trump was just kind of unilaterally announcing these troop withdrawals. I'm going to pull everybody out, or I'm going to - we're going to go down to 7,000 troops starting now. And he didn't consult anybody and didn't even necessarily tell his negotiators that he was doing that. So he was like literally kind of taking their sticks away from them at the table as they were doing this.

 

 

You keep forgetting.

 

Who was the CINC at that time.  Biden.

8 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

It's  just a theoretical, if Ukraine would start winning on the battlefield, which is not the case now. Just as a "what if", then Russia always has that option to deploy a nuclear device.

 

So there is no way Ukraine could win this war.

You seem to have forgot Cameroni that Putin said he would have his flag hoisted in Kyiv City Hall within a week before any aid came Europe or America. Ukraine's Army stopped him and drove the red Army from Kyiv without AirCraft.

20 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

You keep forgetting.

 

Who was the CINC at that time.  Biden.

You keep forgetting this thread is about Zelensky and Putin.

9 minutes ago, bannork said:

You keep forgetting this thread is about Zelensky and Putin.

 
So you admit defeat.  Bidens watch and responsibility.

 

Where the buck stops.  Biden.

 

I admire how you deflect when defeated.

11 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

 
So you admit defeat.  Bidens watch and responsibility.

 

Where the buck stops.  Biden.

 

I admire how you deflect when defeated.

No defeat, Trump's responsibility for selling out the Afghan government and the people to the Taleban.

Biden's responsibility for the hastened withdrawal.

Your deflection !00% . This thread is about Zelensky and Putin.

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin insists on a personal meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He rejects the participation of US leader Donald Trump in the talks, reports Politico.

 

According to a White House official, when Trump called to offer his presence at the meeting between Zelenskyy and the Russian president, Putin said: "You don't have to come. I want to see him one on one."

 

Among the possible locations for the meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin are Geneva or Hungary. Switzerland has already declared its readiness to host the talks and to provide Putin with immunity from the ICC warrant.

 

Putin insists on face-to-face meeting with Zelenskyy without Trump - Politico

 

According to media reports, Putin proposed to Zelenskyy to hold the meeting in Moscow, but the Ukrainian president refused. I wonder why! lol.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, bannork said:

No defeat, Trump's responsibility for selling out the Afghan government and the people to the Taleban.

Biden's responsibility for the hastened withdrawal.

Your deflection !00% . This thread is about Zelensky and Putin.

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin insists on a personal meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He rejects the participation of US leader Donald Trump in the talks, reports Politico.

 

According to a White House official, when Trump called to offer his presence at the meeting between Zelenskyy and the Russian president, Putin said: "You don't have to come. I want to see him one on one."

 

Among the possible locations for the meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin are Geneva or Hungary. Switzerland has already declared its readiness to host the talks and to provide Putin with immunity from the ICC warrant.

 

Putin insists on face-to-face meeting with Zelenskyy without Trump - Politico

 

According to media reports, Putin proposed to Zelenskyy to hold the meeting in Moscow, but the Ukrainian president refused. I wonder why! lol.

 

 

 

More deflection gibberish.

 

Biden was the CINC (Commander in Chief) for the non military types.

 

Keep posting gibberish that won’t take away the fact the withdrawal disaster was Biden’s fault.

3 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

More deflection gibberish.

 

Biden was the CINC (Commander in Chief) for the non military types.

 

Keep posting gibberish that won’t take away the fact the withdrawal disaster was Biden’s fault.

Hello there! The topic is Zelensky v Putin.

Can you read?

For the last time, (sigh!), Trump made a terrible deal with the Taleban leading to a disastrous withdrawal by Biden.

Now please stick to the topic, you are in danger of becoming very boring.

8 minutes ago, bannork said:

No defeat, Trump's responsibility for selling out the Afghan government and the people to the Taleban.

Biden's responsibility for the hastened withdrawal.

Your deflection !00% . This thread is about Zelensky and Putin.

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin insists on a personal meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He rejects the participation of US leader Donald Trump in the talks, reports Politico.

 

According to a White House official, when Trump called to offer his presence at the meeting between Zelenskyy and the Russian president, Putin said: "You don't have to come. I want to see him one on one."

 

Among the possible locations for the meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin are Geneva or Hungary. Switzerland has already declared its readiness to host the talks and to provide Putin with immunity from the ICC warrant.

 

Putin insists on face-to-face meeting with Zelenskyy without Trump - Politico

 

According to media reports, Putin proposed to Zelenskyy to hold the meeting in Moscow, but the Ukrainian president refused. I wonder why! lol.

 

 

 

Obviously Zelensky can't go to Moscow. That was obviously a troll suggestion. Hungary's leader is a Putin fan so that's not good either. Geneva is good in theory but Putin will probably be too paranoid to fly over the countries needed to get there. 

14 hours ago, bannork said:

Britain’s ministry of defence has estimated it would take Russia “4.4 years” and nearly 2 million casualties to take the four provinces Putin wants to claim.

This map shows the extent of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, including Donetsk which Putin wants to take in any deal (PA)

This is ridiculous propaganda with casualties based on Ukrainian figures which will be overinflated just as Russia's own casualty figures are underinflated. The nature of attritional warfare is about attriting the enemy and not about gaining ground rapidly, as it is in manouver warfare, rather the aim is to wear down the enemy and sooner or later when the enemy is attrited to such an extent massive breakthroughs can occur. The war in Ukraine is an attritional war. Ukrainian troops are now stretched thin as evidenced by several brigades needed to be taken from other areas, hence weakening the defences in those areas, to stop the Russian breakthrough on the northern Pokrovsk front. Interestingly though this so-called assessment from Britain's ministry of defence actually says that Russia can take the 4 provinces albeit very slowly and at great cost.

13 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

More deflection gibberish.

 

Biden was the CINC (Commander in Chief) for the non military types.

 

Keep posting gibberish that won’t take away the fact the withdrawal disaster was Biden’s fault.

Dumb and dumber thats you montie!

10 minutes ago, Tug said:

Dumb and dumber thats you montie!

LOL

 

You and your comrades have earned that title long ago.

 

Proven on a daily basis here on the forum.

21 minutes ago, bannork said:

Hello there! The topic is Zelensky v Putin.

Can you read?

For the last time, (sigh!), Trump made a terrible deal with the Taleban leading to a disastrous withdrawal by Biden.

Now please stick to the topic, you are in danger of becoming very boring.

For someone crying about deflection you certainly are no stranger to the subject.

 

Biden’s watch , Biden’s responsibility.  Can’t pass the buck to Trump no matter how hard you keep trying.

4 minutes ago, ThreeCardMonte said:

For someone crying about deflection you certainly are no stranger to the subject.

 

Biden’s watch , Biden’s responsibility.  Can’t pass the buck to Trump no matter how hard you keep trying.

Please stop repeating yourself, it's boooooring.

Whoever said anything about passing the buck?

I'm saying they're both guilty.

Trump of a stupid plan and Biden of a dreadful withdrawal.

Now come on Monte, haven't you got any other cards to play?  You ran out of these three a long time ago.