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Is trump trying to surrender Ukraine again?

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6 hours ago, MarcusAurelius said:

This is also important. The Ukraine has in fact lost so many men there is a M/F imbalance in the society similar to Russia post WW2 

 

Per Grok:

 

Overview of Casualties in the Russia-Ukraine WarEstimating the total number of lives lost (deaths only) in the Russia-Ukraine war as of November 21, 2025, is challenging due to the fog of war, restricted access to occupied areas, and deliberate underreporting by both sides. Official figures from Russia and Ukraine are considered unreliable by independent observers, as they serve propaganda purposes. More credible data comes from Western intelligence, UN verification, open-source investigations (e.g., BBC/Mediazona, UA Losses), and think tanks like the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS). These sources emphasize that actual numbers are likely higher than verified totals, especially for military deaths in remote or contested zones.The war, which escalated with Russia's full-scale invasion on February 24, 2022, has caused devastating human costs. Below, I break down estimates for military deaths (Russian and Ukrainian forces) and civilian deaths (primarily in Ukraine, as Russian civilian losses are minimal and not systematically reported). Total estimated deaths across all categories range from 500,000 to 700,000, with military losses dominating. This does not include the pre-2022 Donbas conflict (2014–2021), which added ~14,000 deaths.Key Caveats on EstimatesMilitary: Focus on killed in action (KIA); excludes wounded (which total 1–1.5 million across sides) or missing (tens of thousands). 
Civilian: UN-verified figures are conservative; they only include cases with evidence and exclude unaccessed areas like Mariupol. 
Trends in 2025: Casualties surged this year due to intensified Russian offensives (e.g., around Pokrovsk) and drone/missile strikes. Russia reports ~1,000 casualties/day; Ukraine ~500/day. 
Bias Consideration: Ukrainian sources inflate Russian losses; Russian sources downplay their own. Western/UN data balances this by cross-verifying via satellites, intercepts, and obituaries. 
 
Estimated Deaths by CategoryCategory 
Estimated Deaths 
Key Sources & Notes 
Russian Military 
250,000–350,000 
- CSIS (Aug 2025): ~250,000 KIA by May 2025, en route to 1M total casualties (KIA ~25–30%).
- BBC/Mediazona (Nov 2025): 95,000+ confirmed (via obituaries/social media), extrapolated to 250,000–327,000 excluding DPR/LPR militias.
- UK MoD/Euromaidan (May/Nov 2025): 160,000 casualties in first 4 months of 2025 alone; ~100,000 KIA in 2025.
- Includes ~21,000–23,500 DPR/LPR fighters (BBC, 2025). Zelenskyy (Dec 2024) claimed 198,000, but 2025 escalations add ~50,000–150,000. 
Ukrainian Military 
60,000–120,000 
- Zelenskyy (Dec 2024): 43,000 KIA; no 2025 update, but analysts add 20,000–80,000 for intensified fighting.
- CSIS (Jun 2025): 60,000–100,000 KIA within 400,000 total casualties.
- UA Losses (Oct 2025): ~70,000 confirmed dead/missing; NYT/Lostarmour (Jan 2025): >100,000 KIA by Dec 2024, plus 2025 losses.
- Lower than Russia's due to defensive posture and better training, but rising with conscription strains. 
Ukrainian Civilians 
15,000–20,000+ 
- UN OHCHR (Nov 2025): 14,534 verified KIA since 2022; real toll "substantially higher" due to unverified cases in occupied areas.
- 2025 surge: 12,062 casualties (Jan–Oct), exceeding 2024's full-year total; includes 733 children.
- Peaks from Russian strikes (e.g., 26 killed in Ternopil, Nov 19, 2025; Reuters).
- Excludes 8,000–10,000 from 2014–2021 Donbas phase. Russian civilian deaths: Negligible (100 from Ukrainian strikes). 
Total Lives Lost 
500,000–700,000 
Sum of above ranges. CSIS/NYT (Jun 2025): ~1.4M total casualties (both militaries), implying ~350,000–500,000 KIA. Excludes indirect deaths (e.g., ~100,000 from disrupted healthcare/cold winters). 
 
Broader Context and Human ImpactAsymmetry: Russia has suffered 3–5 times more military deaths due to "meat grinder" assaults (e.g., 27 KIA per sq km captured in 2024–2025; Economist). Ukraine's losses, while lower, strain its smaller population (~38M pre-war vs. Russia's 144M). 
2025 Escalation: Russian advances (e.g., Pokrovsk) cost ~45,000 casualties in November alone (UK intel). Civilian deaths rose 27% YoY (UN), driven by drones (24% of casualties) and infrastructure strikes. 
Demographic Toll: Ukraine faces a "lost generation" (millions displaced, birth rates halved). Russia sees excess male deaths (~1.1% of fighting-age men), fueling recruitment from prisons and abroad. 
Verification Challenges: Open-source tools (e.g., drone footage, social media) confirm ~10–20% of totals; satellites track advances but not bodies. UN accesses only government-held areas. 
 
These figures underscore the war's brutality—far exceeding recent conflicts like Afghanistan (US: 2,400 KIA over 20 years). Peace negotiations (e.g., Trump admin's reported framework) could halt this, but as Putin stated on Nov 20, 2025, Russia seeks "unconditional" goals, showing no compromise.  
 @tassagency_en 
  For the latest, monitor UN OHCHR or CSIS updates, as numbers evolve weekly. 
 

How dare you cite evidence.!!

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  • MarcusAurelius
    MarcusAurelius

    The war has been lost for years. It just drags on for the benefit of the grifters sucking American largesse out of the system.    Eminent scholar John Mersheimer spoke to EU Parliament I'm B

  • MarcusAurelius
    MarcusAurelius

    Hi   Are you aware of the massive corruption scandal that has broken in the Ukraine? 100M USD or more.   It pales in comparison to the past and involves government high ranking off

  • News papers, try reading them.

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1 hour ago, Mavideol said:

what else to expect from an American/Russian negotiator, sure he will sell out Ukraine to please his master(s) (Putin&Trump)

 

Witkoff, who is of Russian-Jewish descent,

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Witkoff

Behind Closed Doors: The Troubling Alliance of Steve Witkoff and Trump

https://morningtruth.substack.com/p/behind-closed-doors-the-troubling

 

 

Ahh yes a russian Jewish plot. What's next, calling Witkoff a Bolshevik?  Witkoff was born in the USA. His parents were born in the USA.  It is doubtful that Witkoff will have any special fondness for Russia simply because one grandfather was born in Russia. Both sets of great grandparents fled Russia during the pogroms.  I don't expect that he has any special affection for Russia considering that they tried to murder his family, while burning and pillaging the towns where they lived.If anything he may understand the concerns of the Ukraine better, even though the Ukraine was just as bad.

 

Witkoff fancies himself a deal maker and  he made his bones in real estate working with Trump. His son started the cryptocurrency firm with the Trump family. It's not particularly best practice to have a conflict of interest like that. The two of them look at the Ukraine Russia  fight over land as a real estate transaction. A transaction involving land that is the equivalent of  Bronx slums  during the 1970's. The Ukraine territory is toxic with industrial pollution, mine infested  and poisoned through war. This is  how they see it. The Ukraine attachment to this wasteland is emotional and does not recognize that it was ethnically Russian for centuries.  No it isn't right that Ukraine cede any territory, but if the war is to stop and Ukraine to recover, it may have to cut off the gangrened appendage before it kills the entire nation. The war is slowly killing Ukraine and the future of the nation has to be considered.

 

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12 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

 

Ahh yes a russian Jewish plot. What's next, calling Witkoff a Bolshevik?  Witkoff was born in the USA. His parents were born in the USA.  It is doubtful that Witkoff will have any special fondness for Russia simply because one grandfather was born in Russia. Both sets of great grandparents fled Russia during the pogroms.  I don't expect that he has any special affection for Russia considering that they tried to murder his family, while burning and pillaging the towns where they lived.If anything he may understand the concerns of the Ukraine better, even though the Ukraine was just as bad.

 

Witkoff fancies himself a deal maker and  he made his bones in real estate working with Trump. His son started the cryptocurrency firm with the Trump family. It's not particularly best practice to have a conflict of interest like that. The two of them look at the Ukraine Russia  fight over land as a real estate transaction. A transaction involving land that is the equivalent of  Bronx slums  during the 1970's. The Ukraine territory is toxic with industrial pollution, mine infested  and poisoned through war. This is  how they see it. The Ukraine attachment to this wasteland is emotional and does not recognize that it was ethnically Russian for centuries.  No it isn't right that Ukraine cede any territory, but if the war is to stop and Ukraine to recover, it may have to cut off the gangrened appendage before it kills the entire nation. The war is slowly killing Ukraine and the future of the nation has to be considered.

 

Agree, Witkoff's ethnicity is irrelevant. His idiocy about the war certainly is though. 

7 hours ago, thesetat said:

Ohh ok... So there is no link and the OP is only for the Trump haters.. i understand now. 

I sincerely doubt that.

I wonder if the sudden speed up for the peace plan, favouring Putin, is related to this email..

 

Newly released emails showed Mark telling his brother in 2018 to ask former White House Chief Strategist Steve Bannon if Russian President Vladimir Putin has “the photos of Trump blowing Bubba.”

4 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

I wonder if the sudden speed up for the peace plan, favouring Putin, is related to this email..

 

Newly released emails showed Mark telling his brother in 2018 to ask former White House Chief Strategist Steve Bannon if Russian President Vladimir Putin has “the photos of Trump blowing Bubba.”

Great, just what the modern day Salem Witch hunters need, a new ridiculous anti Trump false and incendiary narrative. That'll help bring the irrational hater club back to earth😅

9 hours ago, Tug said:

Seems to me trump is again urging Ukraine to grant each and every demand putin wants……could you imagine if FDR tried to shank england ant every opportunity and suck up to hitler???sure seems that way to me…..some president ehh??

 

 

The usual lack of any evidential link. Fantastic!

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

 

The usual lack of any evidential link. Fantastic!

 

You can check the details out for yourself

 

President Donald Trump’s 28-point draft proposal to end Russia’s war in Ukraine has been presented in Kyiv.

Washington and Moscow worked together on the draft, and it offers terms more favorable to Russia by calling for Ukraine to cede territory, avoid joining NATO and more. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the draft proposal Thursday.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-trump-plan-92b2c89b62f4326ff67abc5613c9b59e

 

The proposal, originating from negotiations between Washington and Moscow, appeared decidedly favorable to Russia, which started the war nearly four years ago by invading its neighbor. If past is prologue, it would seem untenable for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who has opposed Trump’s previous calls for territorial concessions.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-peace-plan-europe-witkoff-33545b140c5bfbbc5e9061a739802e54

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

 

The usual lack of any evidential link. Fantastic!

 

This might come as a complete surprise to you, but when someone prefaces their stated opinion with "It seems to me..." then no "evidential link" is actually required.

Hope this helps!:thumbsup:

Just now, BLMFem said:

 

This might come as a complete surprise to you, but when someone prefaces their stated opinion with "It seems to me..." then no "evidential link" is actually required.

Hope this helps!:thumbsup:

 

Well it seems to me that the poster should make a bit more effort to justify his posts, otherwise he might not be taken seriously! 🤬

Zelenskiy in an untenable situation. He will flee into exile while a "western puppet" (aka Kremlin proxy) will become president and Vlad gets the whole shebang (eventually).

47 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Well it seems to me that the poster should make a bit more effort to justify his posts, otherwise he might not be taken seriously! 🤬

 

So you worry that a person you don't know loses credibility because they state an opinion in a forum where everyone states opinions all the time, and mostly without any linked corroboration?

That's mighty Christian of you!

1 minute ago, BLMFem said:

 

So you worry that a person you don't know loses credibility because they state an opinion in a forum where everyone states opinions all the time, and mostly without any linked corroboration?

That's mighty Christian of you!

 

Not worried. It's just annoying to read that stuff for nothing , which is exactly what Tug offers, with boring regularity. 

 

Let's not bring religion into this, please.

8 hours ago, nauseus said:
17 hours ago, Tug said:

Seems to me trump is again urging Ukraine to grant each and every demand putin wants……could you imagine if FDR tried to shank england ant every opportunity and suck up to hitler???sure seems that way to me…..some president ehh??

 

 

The usual lack of any evidential link. Fantastic!

 

The plan appears to maximise the potential for future Russian hybrid and false-flag operations that would see Moscow claim Ukraine breached the terms and then re-invade, a senior European official said. The official added that it very closely resembled Russia’s demands at previous talks and was completely unacceptable to Europe and Ukraine.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-european-allies-reject-key-123821695.html

The Ukraine can approach this as a proposal from USA-Russia, and make a counter proposal.  The Ukraine just has to hang on for  another year until the Congressional elections of 2026 when House and Senate will most likely return members who are not as supportive of the Russian demands.  Unfortunately, at some point, Ukraine will have to cede some territory if it wishes to survive.

17 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

The Ukraine can approach this as a proposal from USA-Russia, and make a counter proposal.  The Ukraine just has to hang on for  another year until the Congressional elections of 2026 when House and Senate will most likely return members who are not as supportive of the Russian demands.  Unfortunately, at some point, Ukraine will have to cede some territory if it wishes to survive.

 

From what I have read, Trump has set a Thursday deadline for the peace plan to be signed, or the US will withdraw all support

20 minutes ago, Patong2021 said:

The Ukraine can approach this as a proposal from USA-Russia, and make a counter proposal.  The Ukraine just has to hang on for  another year until the Congressional elections of 2026 when House and Senate will most likely return members who are not as supportive of the Russian demands.  Unfortunately, at some point, Ukraine will have to cede some territory if it wishes to survive.

The Ukraine?

15 minutes ago, CallumWK said:

 

From what I have read, Trump has set a Thursday deadline for the peace plan to be signed, or the US will withdraw all support

 

Well, it is not as if the USA has been offering much support this year, has it? Ultimatums don't work with people who have nothing left to lose. I hope the timeline is only a negotiating tactic from the Trump book of bullying. I still don't understand why, Trump is so sympathetic to the Russians and enables Putin. At some point the reasons will come out and I do hope I am still alive when they do.

Zelensky is a corrupt little conman, give Russia the land and be friends again and my country won't have to foolishly support your little suitless ass.

17 hours ago, MarcusAurelius said:

The war has been lost for years. It just drags on for the benefit of the grifters sucking American largesse out of the system. 

 

Eminent scholar John Mersheimer spoke to EU Parliament I'm Brussels, but of course you board members far more educated on the topic as indicated by lack of supporting evidence and ad hominem attacks and childish name calling 

 

It is conveniently in audio as I'm certain all the rabid anti Russian posters here averse to long and even short form reading 

 

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/mearsheimer-europes-bleak-future/

 

Moreover, the common wisdom here seems to be that Russia instagated the war. This is simply not true. Again, professor Mersheimer 

 

https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war

 

The conventional wisdom in the West is that Vladimir Putin is responsible for causing the Ukraine war. The invasion aimed at conquering all of Ukraine and making it part of a greater Russia, so the argument goes.

 

The alternative argument, which I identify with, and which is clearly the minority view in the West, is that the United States and its allies provoked the war. This is not to deny, of course, that Russia invaded Ukraine and started the war. But the principal cause of the conflict is the NATO decision to bring Ukraine into the alliance, which virtually all Russian leaders see as an existential threat that must be eliminated. NATO expansion, however, is part of a broader strategy that is designed to make Ukraine a Western bulwark on Russia’s border. Bringing Kyiv into the European Union (EU) and promoting a color revolution in Ukraine – turning it into pro-Western liberal democracy – are the other two prongs of the policy. Russia leaders fear all three prongs, but they fear NATO expansion the most. To deal with this threat, Russia launched a preventive war on 24 February 2022.

 

Finally, some time ago Anthony Blinken acknowledged Us arms build up on Ukraine boarder which also really gave Russia no option other than to invade

 

There seems to be an enormous amount of name calling and distraction on this thread and when I look at the sub forum itself it's full of the same cheap shots. 

 

The war was lost before it started, but that never stops the masters of war

 

Enjoy your day gents 

The people of Ukraine favor the West over Russia.  The West is freedom, Russia is oppression.

11 minutes ago, JimCM said:

Zelensky is a corrupt little conman, give Russia the land and be friends again and my country won't have to foolishly support your little suitless ass.

It figures a HAMAS terrorist lover sides with Russia.

1 hour ago, Patong2021 said:

The Ukraine can approach this as a proposal from USA-Russia, and make a counter proposal.  The Ukraine just has to hang on for  another year until the Congressional elections of 2026 when House and Senate will most likely return members who are not as supportive of the Russian demands.  Unfortunately, at some point, Ukraine will have to cede some territory if it wishes to survive.

I wish the US would give Ukraine Tomahawks to hammer Russia.

Two things can happen. Ukraine gives up territory or Russia takes it and as it is Russia continues to take it. 

1 hour ago, Patong2021 said:

 

Well, it is not as if the USA has been offering much support this year, has it? Ultimatums don't work with people who have nothing left to lose. I hope the timeline is only a negotiating tactic from the Trump book of bullying. I still don't understand why, Trump is so sympathetic to the Russians and enables Putin. At some point the reasons will come out and I do hope I am still alive when they do.

China. 

8 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

I still don't understand why, Trump is so sympathetic to the Russians and enables Putin.

 

Bubba, and some other things many have suspected for years?

we all knew Trump's allegiances to Putin but this is extreme, Krasnov did went all the way now not hiding his intentions, Russia is the aggressor and Trump never once accepted that, never did Trump gave a warning or a time frame dead line to Putin but unfortunately he does keep giving the invaded country dead lines and threats if they don't accept his stupid proposal, why he doesn't give similar dead line to Putin is anybody guess but threatening Ukraine is a dead give away about his intentions, if Ukraine doesn't sign/agree to give away their sovereignty and dignity Trump will stop providing aide/help

23 hours ago, CallumWK said:

 

You can check the details out for yourself

 

President Donald Trump’s 28-point draft proposal to end Russia’s war in Ukraine has been presented in Kyiv.

Washington and Moscow worked together on the draft, and it offers terms more favorable to Russia by calling for Ukraine to cede territory, avoid joining NATO and more. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the draft proposal Thursday.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-trump-plan-92b2c89b62f4326ff67abc5613c9b59e

 

The proposal, originating from negotiations between Washington and Moscow, appeared decidedly favorable to Russia, which started the war nearly four years ago by invading its neighbor. If past is prologue, it would seem untenable for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who has opposed Trump’s previous calls for territorial concessions.

 

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-peace-plan-europe-witkoff-33545b140c5bfbbc5e9061a739802e54

 

So can Tug.

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