2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

But you've never had any firsthand experience of solar power, and no education in science.

What most impresses me about lefties is their complete and utter ignorance about any subject they choose to lecture everyone else about.

What has personal hands on experience got to do with the economic feasibility of solar power at the utility level? What in your personal experience qualifies you to dispute the data I've cited?  You've got nothing.

3 hours ago, Alan Zweibel said:

No, I have offered plenty of evidence. It's you who have offered nothing in the way of facts except some states with high solar usage also have high energy costs. Since you offered the correlation, it's your responsibility to provide the proof that there is causation. I'm not obliged to do your homework for you.

On the other hand, I have offered proof that solar is highly competitive in a genuine free market energy system. 

You've got less than nothing.

You claimed that there is a "free market" for energy in Texas, which is just not true. 

 

You have nothing 

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

But you've never had any firsthand experience of solar power, and no education in science.

What most impresses me about lefties is their complete and utter ignorance about any subject they choose to lecture everyone else about.

 

Not to mention, when they want their choice of action to be implemented, it's always using someone else's money, they never pay for anything themselves.

He just regurgitates articles and "studies" by other leftists. 

 

 

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

But you've never had any firsthand experience of solar power, and no education in science.

What most impresses me about lefties is their complete and utter ignorance about any subject they choose to lecture everyone else about.

 

Not to mention, when they want their choice of action to be implemented, it's always using someone else's money, they never pay for anything themselves.

I don't think you should go down the someone else's money route.......

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

You claimed that there is a "free market" for energy in Texas, which is just not true. 

 

You have nothing 

Thank you for your evidence-rich critique.

 

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

He just regurgitates articles and "studies" by other leftists. 

 

 

Like the leftists at FERC:

The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) serves as an independent system operator, managing the flow of electrical power to 24 million customers in the state of Texas, representing approximately 90 percent of Texas’ electrical load. ERCOT operates a competitive wholesale electricity market, ensuring reliability over more than 46,000 miles of transmission lines, for approximately 550 generating units and for its customers in Texas. Operating as an energy-only market with real-time, day-ahead, and ancillary service markets, ERCOT also performs financial settlement for the competitive wholesale bulk-power market and administers retail switching for 7 million premises in competitive choice areas.

https://www.ferc.gov/industries-data/electric/electric-power-markets/ercot#:~:text=ERCOT Website,rest of the United States.

 

or as the Marxist/Leninist Gemini AI puts it:

"Texas has a competitive, largely free market for wholesale power supply, operated by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). This "energy-only" market design encourages competition among generators and allows prices to respond to supply and demand signals."

3 hours ago, BritManToo said:

But you've never had any firsthand experience of solar power, and no education in science.

What most impresses me about lefties is their complete and utter ignorance about any subject they choose to lecture everyone else about.

 

Not to mention, when they want their choice of action to be implemented, it's always using someone else's money, they never pay for anything themselves.

Since you have  nothing germane to offer in rebuttal, you make it personal instead. And this "Not to mention, when they want their choice of action to be implemented, it's always using someone else's money, they never pay for anything themselves." has the remarkable feature of being entirely irrelevant." It's a completely Pavlovian comment.

2 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Like the leftists at FERC:

The Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) serves as an independent system operator, managing the flow of electrical power to 24 million customers in the state of Texas, representing approximately 90 percent of Texas’ electrical load. ERCOT operates a competitive wholesale electricity market, ensuring reliability over more than 46,000 miles of transmission lines, for approximately 550 generating units and for its customers in Texas. Operating as an energy-only market with real-time, day-ahead, and ancillary service markets, ERCOT also performs financial settlement for the competitive wholesale bulk-power market and administers retail switching for 7 million premises in competitive choice areas.

https://www.ferc.gov/industries-data/electric/electric-power-markets/ercot#:~:text=ERCOT Website,rest of the United States.

 

or as the Marxist/Leninist Gemini AI puts it:

"Texas has a competitive, largely free market for wholesale power supply, operated by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT). This "energy-only" market design encourages competition among generators and allows prices to respond to supply and demand signals."

So now it's "largely" free-market 

 

And then only for "wholesale power supply". Do you know what that means?

 

And of course, it's "...operated by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT)." That sounds real "free" market, yes?

 

You're such a phony. 

 

Just now, Yellowtail said:

So now it's "largely" free-market 

 

And then only for "wholesale power supply". Do you know what that means?

 

And of course, it's "...operated by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT)." That sounds real "free" market, yes?

 

You're such a phony. 

 

So ridiculous. In the USA, for example, there are safety rules about various all sorts of safety rules that various products have to abide by to be sold. Does that mean that there's no free market for electrical appliances or food items because they are subject to those rules. It's largely a free market.

And who says that it's only "for wholesale power supply". But that is where the various energy sources like coal, gas, wind and solar compete.

 

  As for retail...“Texas has a competitive retail electric market. Our firm did the studies that were used in setting it up about 25 years ago,” economist Ray Perryman told the Reporter-Telegram. “Consumers are able to shop from a range of alternative plans which allow them to choose the structure which best suits their needs.”

He addhttps://www.mrt.com/business/article/texas-electricity-plans-summer-20394014.php?utm_source=chatgpt.comed: “Shopping periodically for a new provider can often produce cost savings or other benefits.”

 

And this is just nuts: "And of course, it's "...operated by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT)." That sounds real "free" market, yes?" Your argument here consists of what ERCOT sounds like? 

For wholesale power supply Texas operates like an auction. But for an auction to function, you need an auctioneer. That's the role ERCOT plays when it comes to wholesale power supply. What could be more free market than an auction?

 

 

 

Just now, Alan Zweibel said:

So ridiculous. In the USA, for example, there are safety rules about various all sorts of safety rules that various products have to abide by to be sold. Does that mean that there's no free market for electrical appliances or food items because they are subject to those rules. It's largely a free market.

And who says that it's only "for wholesale power supply". But that is where the various energy sources like coal, gas, wind and solar compete.

Your regurgitation said it was for wholesale power supply.

Just now, Alan Zweibel said:

  As for retail...“Texas has a competitive retail electric market. Our firm did the studies that were used in setting it up about 25 years ago,” economist Ray Perryman told the Reporter-Telegram. “Consumers are able to shop from a range of alternative plans which allow them to choose the structure which best suits their needs.”

He addhttps://www.mrt.com/business/article/texas-electricity-plans-summer-20394014.php?utm_source=chatgpt.comed: “Shopping periodically for a new provider can often produce cost savings or other benefits.”

Retail and wholesale are both just traders.

Just now, Alan Zweibel said:

 

And this is just nuts: "And of course, it's "...operated by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT)." That sounds real "free" market, yes?" Your argument here consists of what ERCOT sounds like? 

For wholesale power supply Texas operates like an auction. But for an auction to function, you need an auctioneer. That's the role ERCOT plays when it comes to wholesale power supply. What could be more free market than an auction?

 

Meaning anything that is sold, has to be sold through them, yes? Likely can only be sold to approved buyers. 

 

How is the state controlling the sale make it "free" market. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Your regurgitation said it was for wholesale power supply.

Retail and wholesale are both just traders.

Meaning anything that is sold, has to be sold through them, yes? Likely can only be sold to approved buyers. 

 

How is the state controlling the sale make it "free" market. 

What does that even mean, they're both just traders? Traders aren't part of the free market?

Given the number of options offered to Texans to buy retail plans, that qualifies as a free market. If you want a 100% free market, move to Utopia. Your arguments are ridiculous. You started off by trying to claim that solar is somehow tied to higher cost for electricity, and now you end up quibbling about the purity of a market. When it comes to power sources, Texas clearly has a free market. The power suppliers compete on price.

36 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

What does that even mean, they're both just traders?

It means they just buy and sell. 

36 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Traders aren't part of the free market?

Traders may be part of a free market, but they can also exist in a closed market, like the energy market in Texas.

36 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Given the number of options offered to Texans to buy retail plans, that qualifies as a free market. If you want a 100% free market, move to Utopia. Your arguments are ridiculous. You started off by trying to claim that solar is somehow tied to higher cost for electricity, and now you end up quibbling about the purity of a market. When it comes to power sources, Texas clearly has a free market. The power suppliers compete on price.

following your logic, if the only company allowed to produce phones is China Mobile, it would be a free market, because they have a lot of models and countless retailers.

 

California gets over 40% of its power from solar, and their rates are over twice the national average, and almost triple that of Louisiana. Louisiana gets only about 2% from solar, with most coming from gas. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Your regurgitation said it was for wholesale power supply.

Retail and wholesale are both just traders.

Meaning anything that is sold, has to be sold through them, yes? Likely can only be sold to approved buyers. 

 

How is the state controlling the sale make it "free" market. 

Lefties want the state to control everything.

They don't believe in a free market.

53 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

It means they just buy and sell. 

Traders may be part of a free market, but they can also exist in a closed market, like the energy market in Texas.

following your logic, if the only company allowed to produce phones is China Mobile, it would be a free market, because they have a lot of models and countless retailers.

 

California gets over 40% of its power from solar, and their rates are over twice the national average, and almost triple that of Louisiana. Louisiana gets only about 2% from solar, with most coming from gas. 

 

 

The fact is that power suppliers compete on price in Texas. Once again, they compete on price in Texas. And for a third time, they compete on price in Texas. So, if solar suppliers are competing on the basis of price and their share of the market is rapidly growing, that would tell people who understand how competition works that solar is very competitive. People who don't understand how markets work might remain perplexed.

 

As I've told you repeatedly, correlation does not equal causation. If you've got facts to offer how the cost of solar has raised rates in California, by all means offer them. But I'm not here to do your homework for you.

6 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Lefties want the state to control everything.

They don't believe in a free market.

And how does that apply to the situation in Texas which is universally acknowledged to be the most free energy market in the USA and maybe even in the world?

6 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

And how does that apply to the situation in Texas which is universally acknowledged to be the most free energy market in the USA and maybe even in the world?

Didn't Texas grid fail a while back during a cold winter.

Because they'd scrapped power stations in favour of solar farms?

 

4 years and billions of dollars and it's still not fixed!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/edhirs/2024/12/09/after-4-years-and-billions-of-dollars-the-texas-grid-is-not-fixed/

 

"So, by ERCOT’s own projections, the grid is more fragile than it was four years ago.

Why? In 2002, Texas dispensed with a reliable end-to-end electricity supply chain that the consumer could count on in the heat of summer and cold of winter. It has been replaced by a 100% government operated grid under which consumers pay more, get less, and no one can be held accountable".

 

Biden's work it appears, lefties destroying the electric supplies.

29 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Didn't Texas grid fail a while back during a cold winter.

Because they'd scrapped power stations in favour of solar farms?

 

4 years and billions of dollars and it's still not fixed!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/edhirs/2024/12/09/after-4-years-and-billions-of-dollars-the-texas-grid-is-not-fixed/

 

"So, by ERCOT’s own projections, the grid is more fragile than it was four years ago.

Why? In 2002, Texas dispensed with a reliable end-to-end electricity supply chain that the consumer could count on in the heat of summer and cold of winter. It has been replaced by a 100% government operated grid under which consumers pay more, get less, and no one can be held accountable".

 

Biden's work it appears, lefties destroying the electric supplies.

I think you may have stopped reading after the quoted section? It goes on to blame The State of Texas for the problems. Republicans have been in control in Texas for a long time. Lefties could be destroying the electric supplies but it Texas's case it is not the lefties that are in control. Texas was just to cheap to pay for the cold weather equipment.

 

" While some in Austin blame this problem on federal subsidies tilting the playing field towards renewable energy, the facts tell a different story. First, years before wind and solar farms proliferated in Texas, the ERCOT market design did not reward capital investment by power plant operators. Second, ERCOT is “an arm of the state,” according to the state’s highest court. ERCOT, not the federal government, controls entry to its grid. So, if wind and solar farms are a problem, they are a problem because the state let them become a problem. Finally, the state of Texas rewards gaming by allowing extreme price gouging, which has cost Texans billions of dollars."

 

Texas is on its own grid and not a part of the national grid so is under the control of state government. From Googles AI

 

"Texas has its own independent power grid, known as the Texas Interconnection, primarily to avoid federal oversight and regulations that apply to interstate power, a decision made in the 1930s when the Federal Power Act was passed, allowing utilities to stay within state borders to remain independent. Managed by the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) and covering most of the state, this setup allows Texas to manage its own energy market but also creates challenges during extreme weather, as it has limited ability to import significant power from other grids"

 

 

51 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Didn't Texas grid fail a while back during a cold winter.

Because they'd scrapped power stations in favour of solar farms?

 

4 years and billions of dollars and it's still not fixed!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/edhirs/2024/12/09/after-4-years-and-billions-of-dollars-the-texas-grid-is-not-fixed/

 

"So, by ERCOT’s own projections, the grid is more fragile than it was four years ago.

Why? In 2002, Texas dispensed with a reliable end-to-end electricity supply chain that the consumer could count on in the heat of summer and cold of winter. It has been replaced by a 100% government operated grid under which consumers pay more, get less, and no one can be held accountable".

 

Biden's work it appears, lefties destroying the electric supplies.

"Didn't Texas grid fail a while back during a cold winter.

Because they'd scrapped power stations in favour of solar farms?"

 

No. In February of 2021 there was very little solar power in Texas. Estimates for the entireyear range from 2.9 to 4 %. And given that this occurred in the beginning of the year, it was probably less.  Rather it was nuclear, gas, and wind powered energy sources that failed because ERCOT failed to require them to be hardened enough against cold weather. In other words it was a lack of regulation that caused the problem.

 

And as for your Pavlovian comment about Biden. One of the features of the Texas energy grid is that it's not connected to the national grid. That means it's exempt from most federal regulations.

 

Anyway, apart from these small quibbles, thanks for the excellent comments. 

35 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

"Didn't Texas grid fail a while back during a cold winter.

Because they'd scrapped power stations in favour of solar farms?"

 

No. In February of 2021 there was very little solar power in Texas. Estimates for the entireyear range from 2.9 to 4 %. And given that this occurred in the beginning of the year, it was probably less.  Rather it was nuclear, gas, and wind powered energy sources that failed because ERCOT failed to require them to be hardened enough against cold weather. In other words it was a lack of regulation that caused the problem.

 

And as for your Pavlovian comment about Biden. One of the features of the Texas energy grid is that it's not connected to the national grid. That means it's exempt from most federal regulations.

 

Anyway, apart from these small quibbles, thanks for the excellent comments. 

Yeah, you can see how all the new solar has driven rates down in Texas:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=texas+electric+rates+last+10+years&sca_esv=d33f661f42c9ee99&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&fbs=AIIjpHxU7SXXniUZfeShr2fp4giZrjP_Cx0LI1Ytb_FGcOviEiTm5uW1q0uNfK7KsnoL8hWZUZ3ZEPhe0cPqXxrOlmBaXNrzSbxDmRd08BPr8JCE3nu3PcJjf83ExQ7rwGD5cZTZn5yhXjodzY7BAamO5WIWU2x-UGgA-ygO2O_3gSk_9ZqyOAsuFPn8vhrdwnDljVHxI1j_8HIrYsqn-_akCNf8FAHXDA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-5pv0g-ORAxVYavUHHaIYGC8Q0pQJegQIBRAF&biw=1528&bih=698&dpr=1.25

On 12/28/2025 at 8:31 AM, Alan Zweibel said:

Just an empty characterization by you. Until you back it up with actual analysis, all you've got is nothing. You've got nothing.

 

If you're referring to my post, my point is very obvious.

On 12/27/2025 at 4:14 PM, bannork said:

 

It is interesting to compare the advantages and disadvantages of wind power:

 

Advantages

1. Renewable and clean: turbines generate electricity without burning fuel, releasing zero greenhouse gases or air pollutants.

 

2. Cost-Effective: Utility-scale wind is one of the lowest-priced energy sources available.

Installation costs can be considerable however as wind is free there are very low long-term operating costs.

 

3. Space Efficient: While wind farms cover large areas, the actual footprint of each turbine is small. This allows the land between turbines to be used for other purposes like farming or ranching.

 

4. Job creation and revenue for local communities: The industry creates thousands of jobs in manufacturing, installation, and maintenance. It also provides steady income for local communities through tax payments and land-lease agreements.

 

5. Low Water Consumption: Unlike nuclear or fossil fuel plants, wind turbines do not require water for cooling, which is a critical benefit in water-scarce regions. 

 

Disadvantages

 

1.  Intermittency: Wind does not blow at a constant speed therefore turbines do not produce electricity all the time leading to necessary backup energy sources or expensive storage solutions to maintain a stable grid.

 

2. Impact on Wildlife: Rotating blades can be hazardous to birds and bats. Research suggests between 140,000 and 500,000 birds die from turbine collisions annually in the U.S. alone.

 

3. Aesthetics and Noise: Some residents consider wind turbines to be an eyesore. The mechanical hum and aerodynamic whooshing sound annoys some locals.

 

4. Remote Locations: The best wind resources are often in remote or offshore areas far from cities. This necessitates the construction of expensive, high-voltage transmission lines to bring the power to urban centres.

 

5. Technical Interference: Turbines can sometimes interfere with radar systems used for air traffic control or weather forecasting, as well as television and radio signals. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A fair comparison, but what conclusion do you draw from that.

40 minutes ago, PopGun said:

A fair comparison, but what conclusion do you draw from that.

Wind power is certainly an energy supply to be exploited, however it must be used in harness with other energy  sources due to its inability to provide power100% of the time.

Factor 4 in the disadvantages section is another potential handicap.

This talk exposes why America, despite having the technology, engineers, and money, still can’t build clean energy at scale.

 

The speaker describes how wealthy landowners and outdated environmental laws have blocked hundreds of projects, from offshore wind to next-generation nuclear. Permits that should take months now take years, leaving critical infrastructure stuck in “permitting purgatory.”

 

He outlines how both political sides celebrate clean energy publicly while fighting it locally. The message is clear: until the system changes, the U.S. will remain stagnant

 

Why America Can’t Build Clean Energy And Who’s Really Stopping It | Watch

4 hours ago, bannork said:

This talk exposes why America, despite having the technology, engineers, and money, still can’t build clean energy at scale.

 

The speaker describes how wealthy landowners and outdated environmental laws have blocked hundreds of projects, from offshore wind to next-generation nuclear. Permits that should take months now take years, leaving critical infrastructure stuck in “permitting purgatory.”

 

He outlines how both political sides celebrate clean energy publicly while fighting it locally. The message is clear: until the system changes, the U.S. will remain stagnant

 

Why America Can’t Build Clean Energy And Who’s Really Stopping It | Watch

How do they define "at scale" and what countries are doing that now?

51 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

How do they define "at scale" and what countries are doing that now?

The Dutch are also having a bit of a problem with wind and solar.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1607152323608810

 

This is what happens when you replace engineering with ideology.

11 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, you can see how all the new solar has driven rates down in Texas:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=texas+electric+rates+last+10+years&sca_esv=d33f661f42c9ee99&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&fbs=AIIjpHxU7SXXniUZfeShr2fp4giZrjP_Cx0LI1Ytb_FGcOviEiTm5uW1q0uNfK7KsnoL8hWZUZ3ZEPhe0cPqXxrOlmBaXNrzSbxDmRd08BPr8JCE3nu3PcJjf83ExQ7rwGD5cZTZn5yhXjodzY7BAamO5WIWU2x-UGgA-ygO2O_3gSk_9ZqyOAsuFPn8vhrdwnDljVHxI1j_8HIrYsqn-_akCNf8FAHXDA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-5pv0g-ORAxVYavUHHaIYGC8Q0pQJegQIBRAF&biw=1528&bih=698&dpr=1.25

Less than 50% increase in almost a decade ... I think that is called inflation & price gouging by utility companies.   Price of oil surely influenced the pricing ...

 

... "Oil prices fluctuated significantly from 2015 to 2025, starting low (Brent averaged ~$52/barrel in 2015), spiking in 2022 (over $100/barrel), and moderating by 2025" ...

 

Considering the inflation of everything else in the past decade, 50% is pretty good.  Couldn't be caused by the influx of rich Dems to a better, less tax burden state.  Supply & demand = price increases.  Basic economics  

14 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The Dutch are also having a bit of a problem with wind and solar.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1607152323608810

 

This is what happens when you replace engineering with ideology.

Nonsense. You think a forward thinking country like the Netherlands runs on ideology and not engineering?

Their long term strategy is absolutely and undoubtedly correct. Their current problems are because the uptake of renewables has overtaken the overhaul of the way the grid works - so they have been too successful and it leads to grid congestion. Sorry but I can give a bit more detail than a Facebook link from an anti climate change group, but it's good to know where you get your "information" from anyway. Electroverse is a "quackery level conspiracy pseudo science" website.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/electroverse/

Like most national grids it was based on a few huge gas/oil/coal fired power plants with massive power lines going out from there and getting gradually smaller the further away you got as the power is distributed. Now the NL has power generation coming from wind farms and solar generation throughout the country and the grid can't handle the amount of power coming in to it at peak times from these remote farms or from solar - more than a third of households have solar panels which feed in to the grid and the grid simply wasn't designed for this decentralised power generation. They built their national grid in the 1950s at a huge cost based on the way power was generated at the time. They will need a similar scale of forward thinking to realign it with the way renewables are generated and their scattered distribution. The grid was never designed to be a two way system. They will get there but they are playing catch up as the shift to renewables was just so sudden (in relative terms).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn40y9yxkgvo

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-first-Dutch-national-power-grid-1953-consisted-of-two-mutually-connected-rings-The_fig1_254867395

If you want an example of another country which is doing it - successfully - at scale, look no further than China. Up to 59% of its capacity is renewable and - being China - they have the long term vision and have been investing in their grid at the same time as investing in renewables. It is quite staggering what they are doing. Just like they did with high speed rail they are conquering the world with their energy transformation. They already produce more than double the total of Europe and America's renewable power, just like more than 70% of all the world's high speed rail is in China. Forward thinking, long term planning, investment.

Meanwhile Trump rolls America back in to the 1950s and backward minded conspiracy theorists like you celebrate it.

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/11/06/chinas-clean-energy-revolution-will-reshape-markets-and-politics

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2025/12/china-adding-more-renewables-to-grid/

5 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Nonsense. You think a forward thinking country like the Netherlands runs on ideology and not engineering?

I think the whole of the EU runs on ideology ...... And is failing and falling apart.

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I think the whole of the EU runs on ideology ...... And is failing and falling apart.

And no doubt you have a conspiracy theory quackery facebook group that tells you that too.

2 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

And no doubt you have a conspiracy theory quackery facebook group that tells you that too.

And no doubt you have a conspiracy theory quackery bluesky group that tells you how great leftism is.