On 1/5/2026 at 12:18 PM, lordgrinz said:

One....don't ride a motorcycle in Thailand......two.....don't trust insurance companies......three.....pick a better and safer country to travel in....Thailand is dangerous for travelling in/on any vehicle, and you will be held hostage until you pay your medical bill. Also, no matter who is at fault, you will pay!

Probably should add "Don't walk on sidewalks (especially in Bangkok". I've had to dodge more than one motorbike while walking on a sidewalk.

1 minute ago, JamesPhuket10 said:

Only an idiot would ride a bike in a busy city in Thailand, it is probably OK in villages in the sticks but not in busy cities like Phuket Town/Bangkok etc.

I have never seen a death in the UK personally via a car/bike accident, I have seen many in Thailand first hand.

Love being called an idiot by someone who can't get passed their personal experience. Believe it or not, your personal experience does not influence the nature of the larger reality that you live in. I saw multiple deaths of bikers in the UK before I moved here. And that was living in the stockbroker belt of London's SE. That personal experience is irrelevant. If I were equally facile, I would counter that after 35 years of riding here, including ten years commuting in downtown Bangkok by bike, I think it is fine or safe or some other superficial statement. My personal experience riding here is wholly irrelevant. The numbers do the talking.

Lots of accidents happen. Many of them are much more severe than they should be due to lack of riding gear. As compared of the number of bikes, or to the number of bike-kilometers, those ugly high numbers turn out to be lower. Riding in the US is more dangerous than here. Riding in France or the UK is safer.

Could it be better? Should improvements be sought after? Abso-effing-lutely. But to sit behind one's personal fear of riding, or inability to ride properly and project that others should abstain is a loser's perspective.

2 hours ago, daejung said:

In France yes

And the UK... probably others in Europe also

It would be good to get the real legal aspects on a few of the things related to this.

UCEP treatment, the condition must be a life-threatening emergency - in theory first 72 hours. Has anyone ever seen this in action for non-thai's at a private hospital?

How about asking to transfer to a government hospital, is that straight forward enough, would you be given the option.

Are the being detained illegally, are capable of leaving the hospital, the hospital can follow up with fraud and debt charges which I guess could prevent other hospitals taking them on or them leaving the country until debts are cleared. I guess there is also a direct risk of arrest so needs something in terms of no fraud in play.

T

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

I'd gladly go back to my health insurance and medical options back in the 80's, i could go see my doctor within hours of a phone call, and be at a specialist within a few hours, or at most the next day. Try that in the USA now, you'll be lucky to see your primary care doctor in the next few weeks, and a specialist within a few/several months.

Didn't know that. Been 18 years since I visited a doctors office in the USA. In 2008 in California it was easy. Why is happening now?

32 minutes ago, kimothai said:

Probably should add "Don't walk on sidewalks (especially in Bangkok". I've had to dodge more than one motorbike while walking on a sidewalk.

Have some fun! I never worry about sidewalks other than wrecking my ankles. You mentioned you have seen many motorcycles deaths here over the decades. I've been here just as long and haven't seen one in person. Accident deaths in the news? I love taking my motorbike out in city and country drives and never had any major issues in 20+ years. I've been fortunate and I like to zig and zag through traffic. Never at high speeds but still not safe.

Driving a motorcycle is dangerous here and anywhere. In the US you are 28 times more likely to die per mile travelled. I think the data supports the person you have been arguing with about danger here vs the USA. Both are dangerous but love the freedom and ease of travel. Worth the risk but to each his own.

Seems like the man could do with some PR.

Personal Responsibility.

If you're not legally allowed to drive in your own country, what makes you think you can do so on holiday?

On 1/5/2026 at 4:17 PM, DualSportBiker said:

Hard to tell if we are being 'disliked' by someone who can't do numbers, or doesn't have the cohones to ride...

I 'liked' your original post and 'disliked' this one. Cojones? Attitude problem much?

4 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Have some fun! I never worry about sidewalks other than wrecking my ankles. You mentioned you have seen many motorcycles deaths here over the decades. I've been here just as long and haven't seen one in person. Accident deaths in the news? I love taking my motorbike out in city and country drives and never had any major issues in 20+ years. I've been fortunate and I like to zig and zag through traffic. Never at high speeds but still not safe.

Driving a motorcycle is dangerous here and anywhere. In the US you are 28 times more likely to die per mile travelled. I think the data supports the person you have been arguing with about danger here vs the USA. Both are dangerous but love the freedom and ease of travel. Worth the risk but to each his own.

Who mentioned "deaths"? Maybe you should read my comment again. I've only seen one person side-swiped by a motorbike on a sidewalk but that was actually in Pattaya. I wasn't arguing (as you mentioned) with anyone, I was only stating that one can get injured by a motorbike by simply walking on a sidewalk and it's especially true in Pattaya because so many sidewalks have been overrun by businesses and the only place to walk is on the street the street becomes the sidewalk). I've only witnessed one death but that was on a street intersection where a young girl decided to run a red light and was hit and landed in the windshield of a car (an image I wish I could forget).

On 1/5/2026 at 1:45 PM, ravip said:

Great and invaluable advice for all AN members!

Great sarcasm??

3 hours ago, Peterphuket said:

How do you get it out of your throat? "Driving in Thailand is safer than you think".

After nearly 30 years of experience in LOS, I dare to claim the opposite.

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention that I have nearly 30 years of driving experience here.

And another 30 years in Europe, well, your turn again.

With respect, this response illustrates the exact problem the original post was addressing.

The argument made by DualSportBiker is based on comparative data, usage patterns, exposure rates, helmet compliance, and per-vehicle risk. You may disagree with his conclusions, but at least he is engaging with measurable variables rather than feelings.

Your reply, by contrast, relies entirely on personal anecdote and repeated appeals to “experience.” Time spent on the road is not the same thing as understanding road-safety risk, statistical context, or exposure-adjusted analysis. Thirty years of driving does not automatically translate into insight; in many cases it simply means thirty years of accumulated habits—good and bad.

Anecdotal experience is also subject to heavy bias: people remember near-misses, frustration, and bad behaviour far more vividly than uneventful journeys. That’s precisely why transport safety is analysed using rates, denominators, and comparative baselines, not individual impressions.

For what it’s worth, many people here—including myself—have equal or greater experience driving in Thailand and internationally. The difference is not who has been driving the longest, but who can separate perception from evidence and analyse risk intelligently.

If you believe the original analysis is wrong, then challenge the numbers, assumptions, or methodology. Simply repeating “I’ve been here 30 years” adds no weight to the discussion and does nothing to refute a data-driven argument.

Experience without analysis isn’t authority—it’s just mileage.

3 minutes ago, Speedhump said:

I 'liked' your original post and 'disliked' this one. Cojones? Attitude problem much?

Sure - I am naturally abrasive. Just shaking the branches to see what falls out :)

Did I misspell cojones? That's not good.

Thanks for both clicks

8 minutes ago, DualSportBiker said:

Just shaking the branches to see what falls out

That got me looking for an emoji but I couldn't find one.

4 hours ago, Jack Hammer said:

In Australia they would be

UK same.

13 minutes ago, Chutney said:

UK same.

I believe also in NZ if they are tourists.

Where is he anyway? Nothing in any of the online coverage or even the fundraiser says which city or town he's in or which hospital. I'd have thought putting that info out would at least get him some visitors/moral support, and people willing to at least bring him so food etc.

Doesn't look like any of his family have actually got on a plane and come out to him which is very odd. If it had been my son I'd have been on my way straight away.

On 1/5/2026 at 7:07 AM, ravip said:

Just asking as I don't know anything about this.

In a similar situation: foreigner/tourist, accident/sudden illness, no insurance/cash in hand is hospitalized - will he be treated free of charge and discharged at zero cost? - in the developed world?

In UK Yes.

In the case of an accident, the A&E department will treat everyone the same - use their best efforts to fix him and if a serious case he would be pushed to the front of the queue.

Now for sudden illness, unless very serious, i'm not sure.

4 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

The man is not a Thai national. The hospital met its moral and legal obligations to stabilize the patient. No one was left to die of their injuries. He is complaining about the lack of rehabilitation services and his legal obligation to pay for the medical services rendered.

No country can afford to offer free medical care for foreigners., especially not a country of modest financial means like Thailand. The country struggles to take care of its own and yet you expect the people of Thailand to pay for the medical care of a comparatively wealthy foreign national who was having a good time. If you are unable or unwilling to obtain insurance, then you must accept the consequences if you travel elsewhere on holiday.

This was entirely his choice to have a good time in Thailand. It was his choice to rent a powerful motorbike with slicks that he may have not been licensed to operate, let alone known how to operate. At least he had a helmet. He is responsible for his own leisure decisions.

"No one was left to die of their injuries." - but - It seems to me that, quite to the contrary, you are suggesting he be left to die – if not, how are you suggesting he be treated?

Reading this thread and Thaiger report, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the discussion around this case.

The family appears to assume that a simplistic determination of “fault” is all an insurance company needs to deny a claim. In reality, insurers typically look at a whole range of factors: licence validity, alcohol, road priority, exclusions, technical breaches, and policy wording. Whether the accident was or wasn’t his fault is only one part of that equation.

However, that is not the real issue here.

The central question is whether a patient’s ability to pay should influence the standard of care they receive once admitted.

Much of the online commentary drifts into hindsight moralising:

He should have had better insurance. He shouldn’t have ridden a motorcycle. He should have been more careful.

All of that may or may not be true, but it avoids the actual question. Being wise after the event does nothing to address how patients are treated in hospital.

According to the report, Bartholomeus claims his treatment was significantly reduced after a billing dispute arose, describing a lack of rehabilitation, reduced medication, limited supervision, and inadequate nutrition. Whether every detail of that claim is accurate is unknown—but the allegation itself raises a legitimate concern.

It is clear he suffered severe trauma and potentially life-changing injuries. In medicine, early and continuous intervention matters. Delays or reductions in care can increase complications and long-term disability. The idea that people should simply be “left to die” because funds are in dispute should alarm anyone.

Some Thai medical professionals have suggested the reduction in treatment may reflect improvement in his condition. Others have openly speculated that care may have been scaled back to avoid further costs given the financial uncertainty. That distinction matters, and without transparency it is impossible for outsiders to know which explanation is correct.

From my own experience working in hospitals, speaking to staff, being a patient myself, and living with an ICU nurse, I would caution against assuming Thai hospitals operate under the same ethical and structural norms as those in the UK or EU.

Thai hospitals are highly hierarchical. Doctors sit at the top and are rarely questioned. Redress for negligence or malpractice is extremely difficult. Many hospitals operate explicitly as profit-driven businesses. Patient transfers due to insurance issues or capacity constraints do occur—and they are not benign. I am personally aware of at least one fatality linked to such a transfer.

If a patient’s care is reduced or withdrawn due to lack of funds, it would be very difficult to expose or prove. As with driving on Thai roads, many foreigners project their home-country assumptions onto Thailand. White coats and modern equipment look reassuring, but they are not evidence of ethics, accountability, or competence.

This case shouldn’t be about blame after the fact. It should be about a far more uncomfortable question:

What duty of care does a hospital owe a patient once they are through the door—regardless of money, insurance disputes, or fault? ...and what duty of care does Thailand owe to the visitors, who, after all, are customers contributing to 20% of the nation's economy?

That is the issue worth discussing.

22 hours ago, greeneking said:

It seems, by the accident figures, that there are a lot of Thais who also don't know how to drive in Thailand.There have been many times I would feel safer not renting a motorbike, but after hearing quotes from taxis for even short journeys, I have felt there was no reaistic alternative.

your interpretation of the statistics is naive in the extreme – the overall view of the traffic stats in Thailand has to include all types of stats and be interpreted in terms of the 5 pillars of the Safe System the international standard for road safety, before you get a good appreciation of what is going on. It is a public health issue, not a blame game – however, foreigners (like yourself?) seem to make things worse by totally misinterpreting what is happening and why.

16 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Patient transfers due to insurance issues or capacity constraints do occur—and they are not benign. I am personally aware of at least one fatality linked to such a transfer.

I was in a private hospital in Pattaya, in an induced coma.

After a few days my private insurance denied coverage citing pre-existing conditions.

Family/friends/work collegues decided I should be moved to my social security hospital.

The hospital refused to release for the transfer until the bill was paid in full.

Bill was paid shortly there after and I was released, died 3 times between between Pattaya and Sriracha, luckily the ambulance peeps were able to jump start me.

I assume, if that bill was not paid to release me for transfer the hospital in Pattaya would have just let me die.

Shout out to the fantastic Doctors, Nurses and surgeons at Phayathai for getting me back on my feet.

2 hours ago, kimothai said:

Who mentioned "deaths"? Maybe you should read my comment again. I've only seen one person side-swiped by a motorbike on a sidewalk but that was actually in Pattaya. I wasn't arguing (as you mentioned) with anyone, I was only stating that one can get injured by a motorbike by simply walking on a sidewalk and it's especially true in Pattaya because so many sidewalks have been overrun by businesses and the only place to walk is on the street the street becomes the sidewalk). I've only witnessed one death but that was on a street intersection where a young girl decided to run a red light and was hit and landed in the windshield of a car (an image I wish I could forget).

You're right - sorry. It was another poster that stated that he had seen many deaths. I agree with what you stated above also.

8 hours ago, BuyBitcoin said:

Where are all the "this is why you have insurance" folks??? They will do anything to get out of paying. Between requiring "preauthorization" for everything to just downright denying necessary care after the fact.

Never has happened to me in 20 years here. I think it happens to certain type of person.

On 1/5/2026 at 9:34 AM, kwilco said:

Where did the accident take place?

What hospital is he in?

Why have they cited "fraud"? - is this a translation issue?

Somebody actually did a "digital grunt" to that comment – what on earth does that mean??? Are they suggesting I shouldn't ask those questions??????

58 minutes ago, Ralf001 said:

I was in a private hospital in Pattaya, in an induced coma.

After a few days my private insurance denied coverage citing pre-existing conditions.

Family/friends/work collegues decided I should be moved to my social security hospital.

The hospital refused to release for the transfer until the bill was paid in full.

Bill was paid shortly there after and I was released, died 3 times between between Pattaya and Sriracha, luckily the ambulance peeps were able to jump start me.

I assume, if that bill was not paid to release me for transfer the hospital in Pattaya would have just let me die.

Shout out to the fantastic Doctors, Nurses and surgeons at Phayathai for getting me back on my feet.

What is the point you are making? That without the ability to pay, you could die?

Were you on US social security or Thai national health?

Again, you raise the point that if you can't pay a particular hospital you need to transfer – but treatment may not be available or may be withheld by hospital number one

7 minutes ago, kwilco said:

What is the point you are making? That without the ability to pay, you could die?

Were you on US social security or Thai national health?

Again, you raise the point that if you can't pay a particular hospital you need to transfer – but treatment may not be available or may be withheld by hospital number one

Yes, without the abilty to pay I expect I would be dead is exactly my point.

Iam not on US social security.

@Sir Dude

Your posts have been removed due to inappropriate and insulting language.

Please ensure future contributions remain respectful.

Thank you.

1 hour ago, Ralf001 said:

Yes, without the abilty to pay I expect I would be dead is exactly my point.

Iam not on US social security.

I see = my original question in the thread was about ethics - I actually know the Chonburi and Sriracha hospitals very well, both professionally and as a patient. I was wondering what "social security" you had – I actually qualified for Thai National Health for some time and used the government hospitals for a couple of operations as well as Phayathai, but my national insurance didn't cover me for Phayathai.

I think that many people are unaware of the ethics practised by hospitals in Thailand regarding your ability to pay and how it can affect your treatment.

It's all very well to say he should have had cover or similar, but in most European hospitals you are treated first, and then they try to get the money back – here it seems it has a direct effect on your treatment.

I did end up in an emergency once and was "in between jobs" and so in between insurance – when the hospital found this out, their attitude changed in minutes from sweet and hlpful to positively aggressive. THen I proved I could pay the 800 quid a night and they found out who I was going to be working for was a VIP government nabob, and they switched back to being nice – all without leaving the bed

Sorry - I can't find anything on this thread that says where the accident happened.

I'm still confused what video his sister saw ?