No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[RaiBerg]

Could any body please say something about the advantage of Permanent Residency?

For example:

• Can the Permanent Residence status be taken away by new immigration laws?
  
• Can a holder of Permanent Residency engage in any business?
  
• Could he/she (for example) run a small retail shop?
  
• Can he/she engage officially in MLM?
  
• If he/she marries a foreigner? Would the spouse get a visa? And their children be Thai citizens?
  

I hear so many contradicting stories – would love to hear some comments.

Thanks in advance….

[xbusman]

My two cents but hardly worth that in todays market.

We live in Thailand. Stop for a moment and get into that fact.

A tropical paradise in asia, wonderful food, wonderful weather, charming people. A third world country with Asian values and conduct. A third world country with ruling class that often wears uniforms, sometimes business suits. Look back into the history of Japan, China, Korea, India and come to terms with their values and interests, decidedly different than the west.

Now, knowing how things can change with little regard for the population, think of Cambodia, think of Burma, think of the great leap forward, just think, you have to come to terms with how things can and do operate here.

They are entirely within their rights to change things at a moments notice. The rule of law and consistency in actions have no value here. Come on peanut gallery, lets have some disagreement on this one. We live in a land entirely at the whim of the ruling class, and they are petty rulers at the best of times. These new immigration rules could be the result of one general losing a bet on the 18 green to a single obnoxious farang, or it could be a trend in the new Thailand coming. The Thailand of sufficiency and cultural purity. We in the peanut gallery will never know, heck, 90% of those who wield power here dont know.

Things are changing, they always do. We who are worldly, who choose to live here, know that our grip and welcome are transitory, its not our home, not our people, not our culture. So we never invest more than we can walk away from, we stay ready for the knock on the door at night, which has come for billions throughout history and has yet to be quieted. When the time comes, we will have to walk. On september 1, many thousands in thailand got their walking papers, ours will come, are you prepared?

The Thai economy is under attack from both the West and China, their fragile hold on prosperity is facing a terrible storm that they are unable to unwilling to divert. There is a pending succession in the Royal family that could tear the fabric and soul of the Thai people. The south is a smoldering fire that could quickly get out of hand and has only grown with time.The military have taken control and while elections may take place, they will remain firmly in power behind the curtain. Ask yourself how the military mind intends on coping with these overwhelming problems in a country that has no systems or procedures or rule of law.

I dont know what the probabilities are that those of us who can stay will be able to stay. I dont know who is next or why. I dont know the specific reasons or mentality in doing what they are doing. I dont really need to.

I do know that the trends are against us. That we all need to be prepared to leave eventually. I do know that things change, and in particular, they change a lot in Thailand, so I am not running to the airport with my world goods in a backpack anytime soon. In the meantime, I am going to enjoy my time in this wonderful country.

[JR Texas]

I am not affected as I won't qualify for a retirement visa for many years to come, but this new rule is truly stupid and cruel. Why make it harder for foreign families to stay in Thailand? I can't think of a single reason. At the same time, those that are affected by this rule will be hit very hard. And others who maybe could come up with the money will probably leave in disgust.

What kind of government invents new laws that specifically hurt families? It boggles the mind.

PS: I think one needs to view this in the context of ever-increasing anti-foreigner laws and increased isolationism in Thailand. It's sad because it hurts the Thai people the most.

Good point on condo prices too. I was in the market for a condo but now, not anymore. Not because of this specific law, more like because of the general direction this country is taking which virtually guarantees that the ROI becomes smaller and smaller... retirees getting kicked out, hard to move money out of the country, etc etc.

Needless to say, the rule change does not surprise me. As I said a long time ago, the visa changes have nothing to do with crime..........they are the product of a growing xenophobia (anti-Western) attitude. I said it before and will say it again.........eventually the grandfathered laws will be abrogated. At that point the high on their horses love Thailand or leave it crowd (the people who think only bad people are being hurt by the rule changes) will be yelling the loudest. But, by then, it will be too late. The writing is clearly on the wall..........WE DO NOT WANT YOU.....GET OUT!

Good luck!

[chickencurry]

I am not affected as I won't qualify for a retirement visa for many years to come, but this new rule is truly stupid and cruel. Why make it harder for foreign families to stay in Thailand? I can't think of a single reason. At the same time, those that are affected by this rule will be hit very hard. And others who maybe could come up with the money will probably leave in disgust.

What kind of government invents new laws that specifically hurt families? It boggles the mind.

PS: I think one needs to view this in the context of ever-increasing anti-foreigner laws and increased isolationism in Thailand. It's sad because it hurts the Thai people the most.

Good point on condo prices too. I was in the market for a condo but now, not anymore. Not because of this specific law, more like because of the general direction this country is taking which virtually guarantees that the ROI becomes smaller and smaller... retirees getting kicked out, hard to move money out of the country, etc etc.

Needless to say, the rule change does not surprise me. As I said a long time ago, the visa changes have nothing to do with crime..........they are the product of a growing xenophobia (anti-Western) attitude. I said it before and will say it again.........eventually the grandfathered laws will be abrogated. At that point the high on their horses love Thailand or leave it crowd (the people who think only bad people are being hurt by the rule changes) will be yelling the loudest. But, by then, it will be too late. The writing is clearly on the wall..........WE DO NOT WANT YOU.....GET OUT!

Good luck!

So, if that is correct, why do they have a visa specifically for retirement purposes?? If that was the case, they could be like Singapore - does not have any retirement visa for foreigners. But Thailand does.

[PeaceBlondie]

It is not only the Thai economy that is under attack from the West (and from Asian economies); it is Thai culture. Patriarchs will always rule this country: old men who will defend their grandfather's cultural values to the death. Thai culture has been under attack since the first television show was aired here, or the first rock'n'roll record was played, or the first Brit or Dutchman had sex with a Thai. Modernism threatens this culture far more than any economic factor. And we, ladies and gents, are the White face of modernism. Of course the Pandora's box of modernism is already open, but if they kick us Westerners out, maybe they can try to go back in time a century or two. They don't feel they owe our imperialistic Western cultures one baht. I may have to walk to the airport; at least it's a short walk.

[tim77]

while it surely impacts all spouses (and kids) w/o income it is aimed at the wifey from phils or cambo. -which makes it as much or more xenophobic... if youre going to marry from the third world and want to live in thailand, we insist you will marry a thai.

How do you figure this dependency change is "aimed" at wives from the Philippines and Cambodia?

[Briggsy]

while it surely impacts all spouses (and kids) w/o income it is aimed at the wifey from phils or cambo. -which makes it as much or more xenophobic... if youre going to marry from the third world and want to live in thailand, we insist you will marry a thai.

How do you figure this dependency change is "aimed" at wives from the Philippines and Cambodia?

Or that auld favourite Thai whipping dog, the Burmese.

Just mention the Burmese in Thailand and their blood begins to boil.

[distortedlink]

Any Farangs wishing to reside or are already residing long term in Thailand should understand that no matter what kind of visa they obtain, we are still officially classified as glorified tourists by the Thai government.

Although these visas do give us the semblance of having some status here, fact is, we can be told to sod off at a moments notice with no compensation or condolences from the Thai Government.

The scenario is that many farangs want to believe that we do have status & rights to live here if they abid by the rules and meet immigration standards, but they also know deep inside that this is not the case.

This situation means the hierarchy of Thailand can have total power over a prominent group of people (No farang communities in Thailand) by subjecting them to living in fear of being separated from their families or losing their businesses. This keeps the farangs on constant alert and scarred to say boo to a goose.

The average Thai voter couldn`t give a toss if we stay or not unless for those that work in the tourist industries.

Coming to live in Thailand means giving up ones statutory rights as citizens of a country and replacing them with privileges.

Edited September 1, 2007 by distortedlink

[fongvin]

Land of Sorrow !!!!!!!!!

As stated in a previous post of mine authorities are quite happy for foreigners to sit on their beaches for a couple of weeks, anything after that they are not interested.

And, I understand their already has been a increase in complaints to Human Rights organizations about the forced seperation of families, spouces, and siblings, extremely sad .....................

FongFong

[fleming]

Just means that retirement visa requests now 1.6 M Bahts on bank account.

Find a sponsor who can rent the money for 3 months or leave the country if you are not wealthy enough!

Not a nice statement! when you are retiring I guess you want to relax and not to worry about such kind of things. Thailand is definetly not a relaxing country as far as you need to secure your future.

Short term tourists or rich (and richer tomorrow) investors only accepted

Not only Thailand is shooting itself in the foot, but Malaysia, Vietnam ... are step by step cutting the grass under this very foot!

Little hope they will reverse the process of closing door. What a pity, it used to be a nice country!

Edited September 1, 2007 by fleming

[tim77]

Land of Sorrow !!!!!!!!!

or, perhaps TIT . . .(which in the past was basically a good natured jest) . . . now seems to mean "Tricked in Thailand".

[farangette]

Guess its time to look for a house in the U.S

no thanks I will stay in Thailand

[catnip]

Well, if you are an American getting Social Security you better read SSA Publication No. 05-10137 , before moving next door to Cambodia or Vietnam. Page 11 says that the Treasury Department has besides restrictions for Cuba and North Korea; restrictions prohibit sending payments to individuals in Cambodia, Vietnam or areas that were in the former Soviet Union (other than Armenia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Russia). You cannot recieve payments while you are in one of these countries, and they cannot send your payments to anyone for you. If you are a U.S. citizen and are in Cuba or North Korea, you can receive all of your payments that were withheld once you leave that country and go to another country where they can send payments. If you are not a US citizen and usually get social security benefits generally you will not get any of your payments even after you go to another country.

So, I called social security and said well my benefits just go into my bank account in the US and I just use ATM's overseas. and they told me that it is not where they send the money THAT it is where you are physically that they are concerned with. and not to worry just go to the US Embassy and they will have social security information and people that can help you and that you need to go there anyway to report your change of address or contact them.

Just thought I would add this to those who want to go stay in Cambo. It's unbelievable to me that where I am physically should be on such concern if I earned the benefits. They said this affects a lot of missionaries and it is good to know ahead of time in case you are counting on that money. Not trying to start trouble just be helpful catnip

[Maestro]

This National Police Order will be dated Sept 1st 2007 and will be published in the Gazette in the next 10 days. However this order is effective immediately.

It makes one wonder: why this rush?

--

Maestro

[gdhm]

I think (apart from the total lack of humanity by withdrawing the "Grandfathering" rule) that with NO days warning for affected couples/families to adjust or make other plans this new law is a deplorable, cruel and merciless action.

I suspect many Thais (even those anti Farangs) on hearing THIS latest rule change will be shocked, maybe ashamed at how their country is behaving at present to its "guests" which it once welcomed with open arms and open hearts.

A couple of days ago many couples were collecting or thought they had collected all their requirements for their annual Visa extension trip to their local immigration Office. Just 1 or 2 days later a swingeing cruel change in law has turned their whole Worlds' upside down and probably effectively destroyed many families lives both emotionally and financially. Others who were fortunate to get their extensions just before the change, have only a year to possibly completely relocate.

When is this "ever changing" Immigration rules nightmare going to finish

The rest of us not affected just live in fear (and I mean FEAR) of when we too will be given an impossible target having maybe bought homes and settled down in Thailand possibly for years. The obvious killer blow for most retirees must now be a massive hike in pension income or money in bank requirement. That should finally kill off most of the rest of us.

I am not affected (yet) but it seems its only as matter of time before Thailand forces Farang/Thai families out as well.

I have already warned my wife (with the way Immigration rules are going in the last year or so) that she must accept that soon I may be forced out of Thailand by her country, and that her options will be for her and my Thai stepson to come with me or a divorce. Its difficult enough one person adjusting to a cultural and language change but now the Thai ladies and children could be facing the same as their husbands. AFTER all how many of us can truthfully say that we can afford to go back to a much more expensive "home" country and rebuild our lives. NOT many I suspect, unless we wish ourselves and our families to live in poverty.

I love Thailand but am so disappointed and ashamed for it on how it is treating its law abiding Visa guests. Most of us now spend our whole time looking over our shoulders for the next Visa rule change (if that's not mental torture what is?)

Surely, if Thailand no longer wants us here, would it not be kinder to tell us we have 2 years to get out. At least that would be more humane and allow us time to try and rebuild our lives, sell our properties, etc.

[THAILIBAN]

are there really still some people who are not aware, that this country is desperately searching for more ways to humiliate foreigners ?

this is all so sick and stupid, that u actually dont know if you should cry or laugh out loud....

and the government can be sure, there will ALWAYS be more and more tourists flock in the country, NO MATTER which stupid or nasty rules they will create now and in the future.....

and they will get the applause from plenty of Farang hypocrites who will say "yeah, good new rules, I still can stay, but others have to leave, how lovely. the more Farang have to get out, the better for me".

Thats how it is! END!

[MengWan]

By the way, does anyone knows some link to retiring in Malaysia ?

I heard they are much more welcoming for retirees there ...

[ovenman]

By the way, does anyone knows some link to retiring in Malaysia ?

Malaysia My Second Home

[Sateev]

In case you sages didn't know, Thailand's immigration and labour laws are ALREADY DIFFERENT for different nationalities (for example, Chinese only get 15 days VOA) so if their target were the Chinese they could have easily applied those laws only to the Chinese...

Not to mention that the immigration requirement for an extension to the "B" visa have a different income requirement for the various nationalities. If they were targeting the chinese and Indians then they would raise their income requirements to equal the USA. As I see it they are targeting Australia, Canada, Europe, Japan, USA since these are the countries in the top income required bracket.

It would be easy to keep out the chinese by retirees by using the same system for the retirement visa. No great leap in logic here.

Quite.

In spite of 'ProThaiExpat', the fact is that there are plenty of avenues to stem the tide of the 'Yellow Menace' from the North. For a better explanation than I am inspired to give, see Johpa's post above. It is cogent, insightful, and tied with a bow.

The only ones protesting the protesters are the ones who believe themselves to be immune to the whims of the Thai government. Smuggness, in this case, goes before the fall.

Sateev

[dreamtime]

You are being rational about it. The ability of the gov here to be rational according to western thinking is not possible. As they say, "this is Thailand" It will change when they make enough bad laws, drive enough people away, then go into a recession. When the ultra rich don't make enough hundreds of millions of baht in a quarter they will come out with a whole bunch of new laws to get people back.

I imagine they will start along this path when the real estate industry goes belly up. As hard as this is to imagine, what goes up will come down. With the USA already started on this path, the rest of the world will eventually follow when the liquidity starts to dry up everywhere.

S

I have friends, (American husband and wife) that have retired here and have contributed to the Thai economy each month to the tune of around 80,000 to 100,000 baht each and every month for several years. Now the Thai government wants to drive these people out??

This looks like a giant step backwards for Thailand. Thousands of vendors here depend on foreigners spending their retirement income here in Thailand for goods and services. I strongly suspect that The Thailand government has made an extremely unwise decision. These foreign retirees that are here take nothing and spend, spend, spend and now the government is telling them to go spend somewhere else???

It is my understanding that Thailand NEEDS dollars brought into the country and now they forcing people to take their dollars and go away????

My function here is to bring dollars into the country and hurry and spend them so I can bring more in.

[fleming]

By the way, does anyone knows some link to retiring in Malaysia ?

I heard they are much more welcoming for retirees there ...

http://www.12retireinmalaysia.com/

http://www.malaysiasite.nl/retiring.htm

[JetsetBkk]

Maybe the Thai Immigration Policy Makers read this site.

I'm sure they do.

I think that all the countries that farangs come from should apply the same rules to all the Thai people living there. Only fair and just. They are there earning money most of which is sent back to Thailand to support their families. Which the Thai government do not do.

So let them put a stop to that! Use the same thought process of the Thai government that if you don't like it - GET OUT and GO HOME

Don't kid yourself - it'll never happen. My home country (UK) couldn't give a toss about expats. It even stops giving inflation increases in the state pension that UK pensioners get if you live in Thailand. We're not there, we don't vote - much - so we don't count.

[Sateev]

...

We whine and complain about these changes, but has anyone ever thought about a Thai person trying to retire in Canada/US/Europe. They may not even get the chance to get into the country, let alone live there.

I'm trying to see the other side of this (although difficult

Again, the point is that the people who are targeted came here, complied with the Byzantine Thai regulations, jumped through the hoops, and are being blindsided by a whimsical change in law, without so much as a day's notice, and no grandfather clause to protect their investment.

The Thais have used the advantaged/disadvantaged excuse for everything from double/overpricing, to excluding foreign ownership , even management, of foreign established companies.

The bottom line is that with the tide turning globally toward more transparency/less corruption, the Thai elite want to put a stop to it ASAP. No EU certification of the elections, no foreign interference. After all, Thais shouldn't have to compete with foreigners, because they are not 'ready'. And that suits the old boys just fine.

I personally know a LOT more Thais with successful businesses in the US, than I do farang with the same level of success in Thailand.

Sateev

[archthai]

Guess its time to look for a house in the U.S

You not Married to a Thai?

[Mic]

I can't tell you how happy I am, not to live in Thailand anymore. Please don't understand me wrong - Thailand may be a nice place to live - but not for farangs. I know that others living in TH will not agree here, but I have been living in Thailand many years ago and I know what I'm talking about. There may have been a better time where the farang was some kind of a "higher beeing" but as Thais recognize that we are just normal humans and mostly with a normal job, we are no more the "gods from the west". The arrogant behaviour that westerners did indeed exibit in the past is the reason, why some Thai feel, they must retaliate for this.

On the other hand I found out (not only with me) that many farangs living in TH flee something in themselfes, which they bring in connection with the country they live in. "Everything is better in Thailand" I have been on such a trip, but for me, the party is over. I feel good here in Europe where I live. It is now so, that I have to push myself evertime to fly to BKK for business.

[gdhm]

What the new rules mean is that a foreign husband with a foreign spouse or dependant living in Thailand will have to prove that both parties are financially independent.

A retiree who was required by the imposed rules to hold 800000 baht for a Non Imm visa, now as a couple has to show double, 160000 baht.

Fair enough, Thailand is not a welfare state and foreigners wishing to stay here should be prepared for such changes prior to coming over to Thailand or other countries.

There are foreigners that are and have been abusing the immigration rule system here for years. Examples, claiming to work for friend's company, friend obtaining work permits but reality is they are giving false statement, not actually working for friend's company. Working illegally, avoiding Immigration with visa runs, marriages of convenience to Thais for business purposes and property controlling.

Immigration are fully aware of what's going on, meaning more tighter rules and difficulties for the bide by the rules legitimate long-term residents.

Discontinue the visa runs, clamp down on permanent tourists.

All well and fine, BUT if I am reading this rule correctly WHAT ABOUT THE 49 year spouse who is too young to apply for a Retirement Visa? (whether she is financially stable in her own right or not).

What also amuses (saddens)me is that every time there are harsher rules imposed some people say such things (no doubt they are unaffected) but over the last year or two how many good persons said similar and now have found themselves under "attack" by ever harsher rules changes, they never envisaged in their wildest nightmares.

I agree about abusers etc., BUT many recent rules have nothing to do with abusers but seem more to do with "culling" and a desire to remove foreigners form Thailand unless stinking rich.

I put it to you that with each cull you and I move nearer to the day we will be culled. Hopefully NOT!!!

Regards, Dave

Dave

[mysticpaki]

Correct me if im wrong.My wife and i are 50 years old so if we want a retirement visa we EACH have to transfer into a thai bank in Thailand 800,000 baht each???

This amount has to stay the same in the bank untill we live in Thailand??

The retirement visa we get has what validity??

Deeply appreciate some guidance on this

thanks

Eddie

[puipuitom]

These foreign retirees that are here take nothing and spend, spend, spend and now the government is telling them to go spend somewhere else???

It is my understanding that Thailand NEEDS dollars brought into the country and now they forcing people to take their dollars and go away????

My function here is to bring dollars into the country and hurry and spend them so I can bring more in.

So, you finally see the light ? The ONLY reason farangs are tolerated in Thailand is for their function of milk cows. Not sufficient milk, and then .. go to the butcher.

Did you ever had the idea you as PERSON was welcome in TH ? Or have any legal rights ?

No, your WALLET is welcome. And to get the most out of that Thailand is willing to change any law overnight, forcing you to leave all you build up and paid for in TH behind.

Sorry, for me no secure base to convince me to come to Thailand. Better be "old cow" in Netherlands / E.U..

[dreamtime]

Malaysia! Now there's a place worth checking out. I went there a few months ago. Kulala Lumpur is world class. The infrastructure is fantastic. Highways look brand new. When I was in the taxi coming from the airport to town I thought there was a mistake and I landed in Florida

Architecture in KL is gorgeous. Shopping is good. Food is ok. Real estate costs less money than Bangkok. And a foreignor can own real estate directly! Now that's a big difference compared to Thailand. Where it takes a scientist or a PHD to figure out how to buy land or open up a Thai company.

I went to Langkawi island. Not much going on there development wise. Penang might be better.

The laws they have come out with there are very good. The gov knows what they are doing. Malaysia gov is much more welcoming to foreignors. You can set up a Malaysian company in no time at all. Own 100% of it, transport your foreign workers, personal belongings and your car at no import fee! This is a place that wants to do business!

The country is Muslim. Many people are walking around with veils, but a lot of people do not. There is a mix of both. I found the Malaysian people extremely nice and well mannered.

In general, Malaysia feels very safe, KL is as clean as clean can be, there is no traffic compared to bangkok and it has a feeling of where are the people after arriving from congested Bangkok. The air is very clean too. A breath of fresh air to tell you the truth This is a much healthier environment to live in than Bangkok.

Its a bit more expensive for some things. Like foot massages. They seemed to cost about $35 an hour on Langkawi island. No one was in there and I can imagine why.

S

By the way, does anyone knows some link to retiring in Malaysia ?

I heard they are much more welcoming for retirees there ...

[gdhm]

Tai people in the region have been given a very bad impression of farangs over the centuries.

The Brits took neighbouring Burma and Malaya, and the French took neighbouring Laos and Cambodia.

The Brits forced themselves upom Siam with the Bowring Treaty.

Their underlying view of farangs is:"Farang's are aggressive and we are not, and so we are vulnerable to them."

We farangs really do have to accept that the praiseworthy view of our nations, with which we were brainwashed in our childhood, is not held by the people of this region.

And we should not be surprised that those of the Tai people who are now living within the nation state of Thailand don't want us here.

Just a thought (but I feel valid).

Tell that to the 100,000's of Thai Ladies seeking Farang husbands, or the 1.6 miilion (thought to be much higher) in the sex industry and the extended families they often support.