Well, you only seem to be defending one side and it is the side that uses its own people as human shields.

The head of the UN agency in Gaza running the school that was attacked by Israel forces has rejected claims that Hamas fighters were inside the converted shelter.

The Israeli military accused Hamas of using civilians sheltering inside the building as "human shields" and said its troops had returned fire after fighters fired mortars at their positions from within al-Fakhora school in the Jabaliya refugee camp.

But John Ging, the director of operations in Gaza for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (Unrwa), told reporters that he had visited the school during a three-hour lull in the fighting on Wednesday and "was reassured by the management of the school ... that there were no militants in the school".

That is too bad if it is true, but did you notice that he wasn't there during the fighting and that Hamas just might have strolled on in and done their business.

'No militant activity'

In video

Gazans mourn their dead after UN school bombed Ging added that these were his "own staff, senior, experienced, long-serving staff". "I am very confident now that there was no militant activity inside the school nor militants in the school," he said.

He also reiterated a call for an independent investigation into the incident.

"If anybody has evidence to the contrary, then let's bring it forward," Ging said. The Israeli strike on Tuesday left 43 Palestinians dead and about 100 injured.

At least 700 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza and nearly 3,085 wounded since Israel's military offensive began on December 27.

Seven Israeli soldiers and three civilians have died in the same period.

The Israeli army said on Wednesday it stood by its statement issued the day before in which it claimed that mortars had been fired "from within" the school, but then issued another statement later dropping the word "within" to say "mortar fire from" the school.

IF Israel hit the wrong target, that is a real shame, but any soldier knows that it is pretty difficult to be very accurate during a war. Too bad that Hamas has constantly been firing rockets at civilans from an area full of civilians and refuses to stop. If it were not for Hamas, all those people would still be alive.

Well, you only seem to be defending one side and it is the side that uses its own people as human shields.

Honey;where are your reading comprehension skills today?

Where and when did you get that ""seem"" on my liking for Hamas? did I say that?

I only defend the right of the poor helpless people that are being killed by an aggressive offensive attack and at the same time, you are saying "they deserve that" and you deny them the right of living ! what that makes you then , you are NO better that the "terrorist" you had mentioned; who wishes to throw Jews in the sea ! What will you do to HAMAS if you have the chance to? I think the answer is clear here.........

I had enough of wars and mourning beloved ones. I do konw what is the aftermath of such hard times.

It's funny or sad ;when an argument or a discussion either ends with dropping an insulting personal accusations on the other party of the argument, or just vilify their rights to add their views!

If I wanted to join you in hypothetical scenarios, I could say 'if it wasn't for Zionism' there would be no Hamas. But it's a silly game to play, because if it wasn't for the Romans and Nazis, there would probably be no Zionism either.

Hamas are scum and so is anyone who defends them.

I am defiantly not a scum, I look and smell better than a scum usually does!

I again ask you, prove where and when did I defend Hamas?

If I wanted to join you in hypothetical scenarios, I could say 'if it wasn't for Zionism' there would be no Hamas. But it's a silly game to play.

wow That's a great add up!

I choose to ignore replying that "hypothetical" of

If it were not for Hamas, all those people would still be alive

Cause it matches the lines as in:

If that woman didn't go out,she would not get raped"

Students storm KFC in Gaza protest

ANGRY Indonesian Muslim students stormed a KFC restaurant today in protest against Israel's military strikes on the Gaza Strip.

About 300 protesters gathered outside the US fast food outlet in Palu, Central Sulawesi, waving Palestinian flags, burning US and Israeli emblems and carrying banners condemning Israel as a "terrorist and criminal" state.

A handful of demonstrators then stormed the restaurant, overturning tables and chairs.

Link

A handful of demonstrators then stormed the restaurant, overturning tables and chairs.

Was that before or after they had some tasty fried chicken? Astute of them to know about the American origin of KFC. A lot of Thais think KFC is Thai food.

About 300 protesters gathered outside the US fast food outlet in Palu, Central Sulawesi, waving Palestinian flags, burning US and Israeli emblems and carrying banners condemning Israel as a "terrorist and criminal" state.

Amazes me, this type of "protest".

They condemn others and then themselves carry out criminal activities and terrorize innocent people.

I was a bit surprised to see there was a KFC in Palu, Central Sulawesi.

I was a bit surprised to see there was a KFC in Palu, Central Sulawesi.

It's next door to the Lingerie shop.

Well, you only seem to be defending one side and it is the side that uses its own people as human shields.

Honey;where are your reading comprehension skills today?

Where and when did you get that ""seem"" on my liking for Hamas? did I say that?

You have accused the Israelis of multiple crimes against the Palestinian people. You have accused Hamas of none.

You speak of protesting about what Israel has done, but have no interest in protesting what Hamas has done.

You don't seem to have any sympathy at all for the non-stop rockets and other incidents that Israelis have been through and you never mention the people of Israel other than negatively.

Like Bob says, I don't have to be a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing.

If I wanted to join you in hypothetical scenarios, I could say 'if it wasn't for Zionism' there would be no Hamas. But it's a silly game to play, because if it wasn't for the Romans and Nazis, there would probably be no Zionism either.

True of course, but we are not talking about hypothetical scenarios. Israel has offered over and over again to stop this operation immediately if Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel and that is a fact. No rockets, no cry.

It's funny or sad ;when an argument or a discussion either ends with dropping an insulting personal accusations on the other party of the argument.

I have to admit that I see many of the most ardent Israel-haters as either closet Nazis who really hate them because they are Jewish or brain-dead trendies who want to be fashionable and repeat left-wing rheteric like parrots without thinking a whole lot about who it hurts.

It seems obvious to me that Israel does what it does because the country is tiny and hated and being strong is the only way that it can survive. They have to scare their many and much larger enemies.

I figure that it has been fashionable to hate Jews for way too long and that they have been through plenty already. Anyone perpetuating those old prejudices does not deserve mercy.

I have no sympathy for the devil when it comes to tormenting the "chosen people".

Well, you only seem to be defending one side and it is the side that uses its own people as human shields.

Honey;where are your reading comprehension skills today?

Where and when did you get that ""seem"" on my liking for Hamas? did I say that?

You have accused the Israelis of multiple crimes against the Palestinian people. You have accused Hamas of none.

You speak of protesting about what Israel has done, but have no interest in protesting what Hamas has done.

You don't seem to have any sympathy at all for the non-stop rockets and other incidents that Israelis have been through and you never mention the people of Israel other than negatively.

Like Bob says, I don't have to be a weatherman to see which way the wind is blowing.

I had mentioned the real crimes to refresh your memory or conscious .

I did condemn Hamas acts, and had NEVER spoke negatively of Isreal's people.

I have Jewish friends ;they don't like what is going on in Isreal right now too.

I don't need a feeble-attitude spokesman, who uses "assumptions" to speak on my behalf though! :jerk:

Edit : to add one more fact:

I had never spoke of protesting about anyone or anything in my life! It's not my way of thinking. Political decisions would not be taken in streets.

But few strong political-gods in the security council, who hold the Vito cards in one hand and the destinies of helpless people in the other hand.

About 300 protesters gathered outside the US fast food outlet in Palu, Central Sulawesi, waving Palestinian flags, burning US and Israeli emblems and carrying banners condemning Israel as a "terrorist and criminal" state.

Amazes me, this type of "protest".

They condemn others and then themselves carry out criminal activities and terrorize innocent people.

That is pure stupidity; IMHO.

It is their common silly and leading NO-where reactions.

It's funny or sad ;when an argument or a discussion either ends with dropping an insulting personal accusations on the other party of the argument.

I have to admit that I see many of the most ardent Israel-haters as either closet Nazis who really hate them because they are Jewish or brain-dead trendies who want to be fashionable and repeat left-wing rheteric like parrots without thinking a whole lot about who it hurts.

It seems obvious to me that Israel does what it does because the country is tiny and hated and being strong is the only way that it can survive. They have to scare their many and much larger enemies.

I figure that it has been fashionable to hate Jews for way too long and that they have been through plenty already. Anyone perpetuating those old prejudices does not deserve mercy.

I have no sympathy for the devil when it comes to tormenting the "chosen people".

The devil was clever enough to make fool of them ;eh?

since i can respond here, joy o joy...

while u all bat about with words, i know have two kids in the southern areas helping out (and my son was able to get help for the thais in the area, good for him, he was really pushing the organizations that are helping to pay attention to the silent foreign workers)

and then, b. , an arab guy whom i raised practically as my son came to work distraught: good horse back riding friend of his was the soldier that was killed last week... and one soldier killed was druze.

now how does all that fit in your all kettle of fish?

we watch the news every evening, and get first hand reports from our kids (we have five guys on the kibbutz in gaza that are in the regular army i.e. 18/19 yr olds) and older guys that are in miluim (reserve duty)...

it is not easy for an 19 yr old to sit in a broken up house with a child's carriage, mattresses and blankets strewn around, sleep there, and wait for orders to proceed... knowing that enemy fire can come out of any house behind any child's carriage (the tunnels are hidden under childrens beds, behind closets, tunnels are everywhere. and who dug the tunnels? palestinian kids desparate for money for their families, they are small and can dig and are less noticed than older guys and a lot of them were injured in the process when tunnels collpased)...

i have to tell u, we are all awfully awfully tired. we sympethize with the families in gaza w/o water, milk, heating (its cold and miserable the past few days)electricity, and the humanitarian help israel sent over was caught up in the black market to be resold at high prices instead of being handed out; only small amounts of food etc is actually being handed out for free. this we know from the guys that are there (the soldiers). we sympathize, but also, we are really sick of being kassemed and GRADDED (the missiles being shot over); and also, last nite the army dropped fliers down on the civiliians to get out of a certain area, but they (the civilians) had no where to go as egypt wont open its borders, and we certainly wouldnt, and hamas wouldnt let them out anyhow...

so how do u think my best friend's son as a commander feels when he knows that some palestinian child his sister's age is shot by him? our kids are told by us over and over again that these people are human. we dont want our kids to lose their humanity even in a war. what price do u think some of these kids pay to keep their humanity in a time of war?

everywhere we go now, u see an arab guy come towards u, u check for an alternative route... that is sick. it makes u not trust anyone.

combat in gaza is difficult as living areas are super crowded houses and narrow streets with plenty of places for trapping the soldiers in dead ends. because of the conditions, four israeli soldiers were killed by friendly fire. yesterday there was a cease fire until 1600. at 1600 precisely, the hamas started up again. like a group of small children in a kindergarten. u all are getting the reports from news reporters. we are getting the reports from our kids.

i asked my son (not in main army in pre army) where he was: answer: bombshelter 49 in netivot. he's been there for the past 12 days (we are counting every day, trust me) and will come home tomorrow to shit shower shave and sleep for the weekend.

the gazans are like cornered animals and will fight to the last woman and child for something they think they want; their backs are to the sea, and borders by people who dont want them. the arabs here in the villages dont want them, they consider them vermin (poor, uneducated primitive breeding like rabbits-- some of the ways the guys from the villages here describe the gazans)...

sometimes it is better to give a good hard hit and finish the whole thing all at once, then to have something drag out. non of us wanted this. now we just want it to finish. hopefully forever (yeah right). if the gazans would just go about their business and we could go about ours, then i and others certainly wouldnt be writing what i wrote. but for purposes of their own, with their own agendas, other poeople have made us (israelis and gazans) get sucked in to yet an other war.

forgot to add; lots of goat rustling now that every one is busy with gaza, the other areas, instead of rushing in and helping their brethren, are busy stealing our goats (from decent arab villages also, 150 head of expensive goats got stolen yesterday from friends in valley) and rushing off to the 'other' areas.

dont see them helping in any way shape or form. lots of arab protesting but no help from their either. just verbal diahreaa and some tire burning for their brothers.

well my rant for the weekend, i guess non of u can really understand what is going on here unless u live here (on either side, arab or israeli jew) but we are certainly just very very tired. in thai i guess its called : nui jai.

bina

israel

Bina.

Your anger and fustration is so blatant, and understandably so.

You are so right when you start with

while u all bat about with words

. It is easy for us to sit here and be internet warriors whilst those on the ground are really feeling the impact.

All the best to you, your family. And to all of those on either side in the conflict.

Regardless of whom is right or wrong let's just hope it stops.

Thanks Bina. Its too bad more people won't have to hear your first hand accounts of what it is like to actually be there.

Regardless of whom is right or wrong let's just hope it stops.

So it stops and nothing is changed, so it happens again. That's what is difficult about calls for a ceasefire. More than just stopping is needed.

Reading this is like reading about Northern Ireland all over again. Both sides think that they're right and so they go on killing each other.

There was a documentary on UK TV a couple of years ago that took two young (10 I think) boys, one Palestinian and one Israeli and brought them together for a few days. Because of their age they'd not yet been completely indoctrinated and they got on really well and became good friends if only for the time that they were together. Fast forward 8 years when they both been through the vile racist indoctrination that appeared to be the daily fare in both Israeli and Palestinian secondary schools and - surprise surprise - they now hate each other.

Edit : to add one more fact:

I had never spoke of protesting about anyone or anything in my life! It's not my way of thinking. Political decisions would not be taken in streets.

You speak of it here and every other point I made about your support for Hamas was equally valid. It is obvious that you are not a native speaker of English, so maybe you are confused about some of the content in this thread, but you keep denying that you have said things that anyone reading the thread knows that you implied or actually said.

QUOTE (zaza @ 2009-01-07 12:39:57)

Do you enjoy turning the tables? Do you suggest that -now- we should go protesting against the Arabic countries that are not so kind _enough-with Palestinians that were forced to leave their country for a well known reasons to all, instead of condemning the offensive killing in Gaza?

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200812...arty_to_murder/

Pro-Israel Palestinians

by Daniel Pipes

New York Sun

May 10, 2005

For all their rhetoric about Israel's "vicious" and "brutal" occupation, Palestinian Arabs - including their leaders - sometimes let down their guard and acknowledge how they prefer Israel to the Palestinian Authority. Here are some recurring themes:

Restraints on violence. After PA police raided the house of a Hamas supporter in a late-night operation and roughed up both him and his 70-year-old father, the father yelled at the police, "Even the Jews did not behave like you cowards." When the son came out of the PA jail, he declared it as much worse than Israeli prisons. An opponent of Yasser Arafat noted that Israeli soldiers "would first fire tear gas, and then fire rubber bullets, and only then shoot live ammunition. ... But these Palestinian police started shooting immediately."

Rule of law. A Gazan leader, Haydar Abd ash-Shafi, once observed, "Can anyone imagine that a family would be happy to hear a knock at the door in the middle of the night from the Israeli Army?" He went on: "When the infighting began in Gaza, the people were happy because the Israeli Army imposed a curfew." Likewise, Musa Abu Marzouk of Hamas compared Arafat unfavorably with Jewish leaders: "We saw representatives of the Israeli opposition criticize [Prime Minister] Barak and they were not arrested ... but in our case the PA arrests people as the first order of business."

Democracy. Israel's 1999 elections, in which the incumbent prime minister lost, impressed many Palestinian observers. Columnists remarked on the smooth transition in Israel and wanted the same for themselves: "I envy [the Israelis] and desire a similar regime in my future state." The director-general of the PA's Information Ministry, Hasan al-Kashif, contrasted the changes in Israel with the power of "several names in our leadership" who rule in seeming perpetuity. The leader of the terrorist Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Nayif Hawatma, wants the PA to make decisions the way Israel does, by putting them to a vote.

Minority rights. Christians and secular Muslims particularly appreciate Israel's protection at a time when Palestinian politics has taken an increasingly Islamist cast. A Palestinian Christian declared that when the Palestinian state comes into existence, "the sacred union against the Zionist enemy will die. It will be time to settle accounts. We will undergo the same as our Lebanese brothers or the Copts in Egypt. It saddens me to say so, but Israeli laws protect us."

Freedom of expression. In an ironic turn of events, a lawyer living in Gaza, Na'im Salama, was arrested for slander by the PA when he wrote that Palestinians should adopt Israeli standards of democracy. For his audacity, he served jail time. An obsessive anti-Israel critic, Hanan Ashrawi, reluctantly acknowledges that the Jewish state has something to teach the nascent Palestinian polity: "freedom would have to be mentioned, although it has only been implemented in a selective way, for example, the freedom of speech." A prominent psychiatrist and director of the Gaza Community Mental Health Program, Iyad as-Sarraj, confesses that "during the Israeli occupation, I was 100 times freer."

Economic benefits. Palestinians who live in Israel, including Jerusalem, appreciate Israel's economic success, social services, and other benefits. Salaries in Israel are about five times higher than in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and Israel's social security system has no parallel on the Palestinian side. Palestinians living outside of Israel want an economic in - when the Israeli government announced the completion of the security fence in one region, a resident of the West Bank border town of Qalqiliya reacted with outrage: "We are living in a big prison."

These comments point to Palestinian appreciation for the benefits of elections, rule of law, minority rights, freedom of speech, and a higher standard of living. Amid all the PA's political extremism and terrorism, it is good to know that a Palestinian constituency also exists for normality.

Unfortunately, it remains a furtive constituency with little political sway. The time has come for decent Palestinians to make their voices heard and state that Israel's existence is not the problem but the solution.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2600

Unfortunately, as long as there exists a non-Muslim nation within the heartland of the "Greater Caliph", there will be war.

It wouldn't matter if these were Jews, Buddhists, Mormons or Rastafarians. If Chiang Kai-shek and his followers had settled in that region instead of Taiwan, we'd still be looking at a similar situation.

It seems many people don't like to admit it, maybe because it's not "PC", but this whole conflict pretty much boils down to one thing.

Religion.

The Jews want their "homeland". The Muslims don't want any non-Muslims in "their" region. Having a large, powerful non-Muslim nation in the midst of their region, is akin to sitting on a long, sharp spike everyday.

My understanding of the Palestinian situation is, prior to becoming Israel, the region was ruled by various other nations, none of whom made any attempt to grant the Palestinians their own nation.

In fact, the Jewish - Arab/Palestinian conflict has been going on since long before there was an Israel (as we currently know it). In fact, at least as long as the end of the first world war.

"Under the leadership of Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the 1929 Palestine riots, 133 Jews were killed, 67 of them in Hebron, and 355 wounded. By the time the British intervened 116 Arabs were also killed in the fighting."

I also seem to recall that when the Israelis first declared "statehood", the Palestinians were offered full citizenship and rights within the new nation, but rejected that.

When the Arab armies attacked in '48, many (most ?) of the Palestinians fled, fearing they would get slaughtered by their Muslim brothers by mistake, but fully expecting to return as triumphant heroes once the Jews were exterminated.

Oops. The Jews didn't lose the war as was expected. Now the Palestinians were stuck. Other Arab nations didn't want them, and they couldn't (easily) return to Israel on bended knee, asking forgiveness and accepting the previous offer of citizenship.

The hope was, and still is, that one way or another Israel will be destroyed, and the Palestinians will finally have their triumphant return. As has been pointed out previously though, even when given the chance to develop their own nation, their leadership seems more preoccupied with attacking Israel than with developing statehood.

Oh yes. The area in question now, was, in this last century, under the rule of the Ottoman Empire, then it became a part of the "British Mandate" after WW I, then it was divided up into it's current situation by none other than the fledgling United Nations.

The vote was passed in the UN by a margin of 33-10, with 10 abstentions (and 1 notable absentee nation - Thailand !).

It is extremely unlikely that this conflict will ever end. They can draw up all the truces, cease-fire plans, agreements, treaties and station thousands of peace-keepers between the two sides and guess what will happen ?

Israel will no doubt do it's best to live up to the various agreements, while the other side will do their best to skirt around them and continue to attack the Jews.

There can be only one outcome to this sad tale. It is quite obvious, but also quite unacceptable (to most).

Edit : to add one more fact:

I had never spoke of protesting about anyone or anything in my life! It's not my way of thinking. Political decisions would not be taken in streets.

You speak of it here and every other point I made about your support for Hamas was equally valid. It is obvious that you are not a native speaker of English, so maybe you are confused about some of the content in this thread, but you keep denying that you have said things that anyone reading the thread knows that you implied or actually said.

QUOTE (zaza @ 2009-01-07 12:39:57)

Do you enjoy turning the tables? Do you suggest that -now- we should go protesting against the Arabic countries that are not so kind _enough-with Palestinians that were forced to leave their country for a well known reasons to all, instead of condemning the offensive killing in Gaza?

No comment!

Pro-Israel Palestinians

by Daniel Pipes

New York Sun

May 10, 2005

For all their rhetoric about Israel's "vicious" and "brutal" occupation, Palestinian Arabs - including their leaders - sometimes let down their guard and acknowledge how they prefer Israel to the Palestinian Authority. Here are some recurring themes:

Restraints on violence. After PA police raided the house of a Hamas supporter in a late-night operation and roughed up both him and his 70-year-old father, the father yelled at the police, "Even the Jews did not behave like you cowards." When the son came out of the PA jail, he declared it as much worse than Israeli prisons. An opponent of Yasser Arafat noted that Israeli soldiers "would first fire tear gas, and then fire rubber bullets, and only then shoot live ammunition. ... But these Palestinian police started shooting immediately."

Rule of law. A Gazan leader, Haydar Abd ash-Shafi, once observed, "Can anyone imagine that a family would be happy to hear a knock at the door in the middle of the night from the Israeli Army?" He went on: "When the infighting began in Gaza, the people were happy because the Israeli Army imposed a curfew." Likewise, Musa Abu Marzouk of Hamas compared Arafat unfavorably with Jewish leaders: "We saw representatives of the Israeli opposition criticize [Prime Minister] Barak and they were not arrested ... but in our case the PA arrests people as the first order of business."

Democracy. Israel's 1999 elections, in which the incumbent prime minister lost, impressed many Palestinian observers. Columnists remarked on the smooth transition in Israel and wanted the same for themselves: "I envy [the Israelis] and desire a similar regime in my future state." The director-general of the PA's Information Ministry, Hasan al-Kashif, contrasted the changes in Israel with the power of "several names in our leadership" who rule in seeming perpetuity. The leader of the terrorist Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Nayif Hawatma, wants the PA to make decisions the way Israel does, by putting them to a vote.

Minority rights. Christians and secular Muslims particularly appreciate Israel's protection at a time when Palestinian politics has taken an increasingly Islamist cast. A Palestinian Christian declared that when the Palestinian state comes into existence, "the sacred union against the Zionist enemy will die. It will be time to settle accounts. We will undergo the same as our Lebanese brothers or the Copts in Egypt. It saddens me to say so, but Israeli laws protect us."

Freedom of expression. In an ironic turn of events, a lawyer living in Gaza, Na'im Salama, was arrested for slander by the PA when he wrote that Palestinians should adopt Israeli standards of democracy. For his audacity, he served jail time. An obsessive anti-Israel critic, Hanan Ashrawi, reluctantly acknowledges that the Jewish state has something to teach the nascent Palestinian polity: "freedom would have to be mentioned, although it has only been implemented in a selective way, for example, the freedom of speech." A prominent psychiatrist and director of the Gaza Community Mental Health Program, Iyad as-Sarraj, confesses that "during the Israeli occupation, I was 100 times freer."

Economic benefits. Palestinians who live in Israel, including Jerusalem, appreciate Israel's economic success, social services, and other benefits. Salaries in Israel are about five times higher than in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and Israel's social security system has no parallel on the Palestinian side. Palestinians living outside of Israel want an economic in - when the Israeli government announced the completion of the security fence in one region, a resident of the West Bank border town of Qalqiliya reacted with outrage: "We are living in a big prison."

These comments point to Palestinian appreciation for the benefits of elections, rule of law, minority rights, freedom of speech, and a higher standard of living. Amid all the PA's political extremism and terrorism, it is good to know that a Palestinian constituency also exists for normality.

Unfortunately, it remains a furtive constituency with little political sway. The time has come for decent Palestinians to make their voices heard and state that Israel's existence is not the problem but the solution.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2600

Intersting post UG, now look at these, it seems a number of Jews are against Israel's actions and some in opposition to Israel's statehood

Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar and Neturei Karta.

There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called "State of Israel" is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate.

No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.

Zionism is wrong from the Torah viewpoint, not because many of its adherents are lax in practice or even anti-religious, but because its fundamental principle conflicts with the Torah.

Unfortunately, due to many undesirable factors, the view of Torah-true Jewry has been concealed from the general public.

We, the staff at www.jewsnotzionists.org are delighted that with the advance in media technology a substantial benefit to researchers, students, and the general public has been made available. We are elated at the advantage which the internet provides for the presentation of and accessibility to a position so widely held yet so deliberately ignored by many a Zionist-inclined medium.

It is our hope that the information presented on this site will be of benefit to all and that we soon merit the peaceful dismantlement of the so-called "State of Israel" and that Jewish-Muslim brotherhood be restored as prior to the arrival of the Zionist scheme on the global scene.

from the website www.jewsnotzionists.org

some links

http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

www.jewsnotzionists.org

Most people don't realize that the fight is between Zionists and Islamic Fundamentalists, not between Jews and Muslims, but it's the people that always suffer. Jews are not necessarily Zionists and Muslims are not necessarily Fundamentalists. I would argue that both Zionists and Fundamentalists are in the minority.

since i can respond here, joy o joy...

while u all bat about with words, i know have two kids in the southern areas helping out (and my son was able to get help for the thais in the area, good for him, he was really pushing the organizations that are helping to pay attention to the silent foreign workers)

and then, b. , an arab guy whom i raised practically as my son came to work distraught: good horse back riding friend of his was the soldier that was killed last week... and one soldier killed was druze.

now how does all that fit in your all kettle of fish?

we watch the news every evening, and get first hand reports from our kids (we have five guys on the kibbutz in gaza that are in the regular army i.e. 18/19 yr olds) and older guys that are in miluim (reserve duty)...

it is not easy for an 19 yr old to sit in a broken up house with a child's carriage, mattresses and blankets strewn around, sleep there, and wait for orders to proceed... knowing that enemy fire can come out of any house behind any child's carriage (the tunnels are hidden under childrens beds, behind closets, tunnels are everywhere. and who dug the tunnels? palestinian kids desparate for money for their families, they are small and can dig and are less noticed than older guys and a lot of them were injured in the process when tunnels collpased)...

i have to tell u, we are all awfully awfully tired. we sympethize with the families in gaza w/o water, milk, heating (its cold and miserable the past few days)electricity, and the humanitarian help israel sent over was caught up in the black market to be resold at high prices instead of being handed out; only small amounts of food etc is actually being handed out for free. this we know from the guys that are there (the soldiers). we sympathize, but also, we are really sick of being kassemed and GRADDED (the missiles being shot over); and also, last nite the army dropped fliers down on the civiliians to get out of a certain area, but they (the civilians) had no where to go as egypt wont open its borders, and we certainly wouldnt, and hamas wouldnt let them out anyhow...

so how do u think my best friend's son as a commander feels when he knows that some palestinian child his sister's age is shot by him? our kids are told by us over and over again that these people are human. we dont want our kids to lose their humanity even in a war. what price do u think some of these kids pay to keep their humanity in a time of war?

everywhere we go now, u see an arab guy come towards u, u check for an alternative route... that is sick. it makes u not trust anyone.

combat in gaza is difficult as living areas are super crowded houses and narrow streets with plenty of places for trapping the soldiers in dead ends. because of the conditions, four israeli soldiers were killed by friendly fire. yesterday there was a cease fire until 1600. at 1600 precisely, the hamas started up again. like a group of small children in a kindergarten. u all are getting the reports from news reporters. we are getting the reports from our kids.

i asked my son (not in main army in pre army) where he was: answer: bombshelter 49 in netivot. he's been there for the past 12 days (we are counting every day, trust me) and will come home tomorrow to shit shower shave and sleep for the weekend.

the gazans are like cornered animals and will fight to the last woman and child for something they think they want; their backs are to the sea, and borders by people who dont want them. the arabs here in the villages dont want them, they consider them vermin (poor, uneducated primitive breeding like rabbits-- some of the ways the guys from the villages here describe the gazans)...

sometimes it is better to give a good hard hit and finish the whole thing all at once, then to have something drag out. non of us wanted this. now we just want it to finish. hopefully forever (yeah right). if the gazans would just go about their business and we could go about ours, then i and others certainly wouldnt be writing what i wrote. but for purposes of their own, with their own agendas, other poeople have made us (israelis and gazans) get sucked in to yet an other war.

forgot to add; lots of goat rustling now that every one is busy with gaza, the other areas, instead of rushing in and helping their brethren, are busy stealing our goats (from decent arab villages also, 150 head of expensive goats got stolen yesterday from friends in valley) and rushing off to the 'other' areas.

dont see them helping in any way shape or form. lots of arab protesting but no help from their either. just verbal diahreaa and some tire burning for their brothers.

well my rant for the weekend, i guess non of u can really understand what is going on here unless u live here (on either side, arab or israeli jew) but we are certainly just very very tired. in thai i guess its called : nui jai.

bina

israel

Bina,

I always have admired your sense of humanity, and respected your honest hearty opinions.

I had not argue with UG on mere political aspects; he was just denying the agony of those people during such times.

My heart is also with you and your family.

God bless you all innocent people.

Israel will no doubt do it's best to live up to the various agreements, while the other side will do their best to skirt around them and continue to attack the Jews.

There can be only one outcome to this sad tale. It is quite obvious, but also quite unacceptable (to most).

Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.

General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948

"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."

Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.

Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967

Calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in the war that year and "the acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.

Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979

"Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."

Palestinian have the right to Self-Determination.

General Assembly Resolution 3236, November 22, 1974

Affirms "the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine...to self-determination without external interference" and "to national independence and sovereignty."

Reaffirmation of a Palestinian State

Security Council Resolution 1397, March 12, 2002

Affirms "a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognized borders."

Also see:

UN General Assembly Resolution 181 - the 1947 Partition plan of Palestine and the creation of Israel.

International Humanitarian Law: the Geneva Conventions - 150 years of international designated protection of civilians during wartime and Israel's explicit violations.

History of the Palestinian Problem - from the Division for Palestinian Rights, United Nations

Countless More UN Resolutions on Israel - 1955-1992

More UN Resolutions on Israel, 1955-1992

Resolution 106: condemns Israel for Gaza raid.

Resolution 111: condemns Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people.

Resolution 127: recommends Israel suspend its no-man's zone' in Jerusalem.

Resolution 162: urges Israel to comply with UN decisions.

Resolution 171: determines flagrant violations by Israel in its attack on Syria.

Resolution 228: censures Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control.

Resolution 237: urges Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees.

Resolution 248: condemns Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan.

Resolution 250: calls on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem.

Resolution 251: deeply deplores Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250.

Resolution 252: declares invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital.

Resolution 256: condemns Israeli raids on Jordan as flagrant violation.

Resolution 259: deplores Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation.

Resolution 262: condemns Israel for attack on Beirut airport.

Resolution 265: condemns Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan.

Resolution 267: censures Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem.

Resolution 270: condemns Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon.

Resolution 271: condemns Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem.

Resolution 279: demands withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 280: condemns Israeli's attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 285: demands immediate Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.

Resolution 298: deplores Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem.

Resolution 313: demands that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 316: condemns Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon.

Resolution 317: deplores Israel's refusal to release.

Resolution 332: condemns Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon.

Resolution 337: condemns Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty.

Resolution 347: condemns Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Resolution 425: calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 427: calls on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.

Resolution 444: deplores Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces.

Resolution 446: determines that Israeli settlements are a serious obstruction to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention

Resolution 450: calls on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon.

Resolution 452: calls on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories.

Resolution 465: deplores Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist its settlements program.

Resolution 467: strongly deplores Israel's military intervention in Lebanon.

Resolution 468: calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return.

Resolution 469: strongly deplores Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians.

Resolution 471: expresses deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Resolution 476: reiterates that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are null and void.

Resolution 478: censures (Israel) in the strongest terms for its claim to Jerusalem in its Basic Law.

Resolution 484: declares it imperative that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors.

Resolution 487: strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility.

Resolution 497: decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights

is null and void and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith.

Resolution 498: calls on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon.

Resolution 501: calls on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops.

Resolution 509: demands that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon.

Resolution 515: demands that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in.

Resolution 517: censures Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon.

Resolution 518: demands that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon.

Resolution 520: condemns Israel's attack into West Beirut.

Resolution 573: condemns Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.

Resolution 587: takes note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw.

Resolution 592: strongly deplores the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops.

Resolution 605: strongly deplores Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.

Resolution 607: calls on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Resolution 608: deeply regrets that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians.

Resolution 636: deeply regrets Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.

Resolution 641: deplores Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 672: condemns Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram Al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

Resolution 673: deplores Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.

Resolution 681: deplores Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 694: deplores Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.

Resolution 726: strongly condemns Israel's deportation of Palestinians.

Resolution 799: strongly condemns Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.