Meltdown Likely Under Way At Japan Nuclear Reactor

[elcent]

One thing I don't understand. Why is is that a high-tech country wasn't able to send small remote controlled kind of helicopters with cameras into the plants to get images of the damage? Technological no problem.

Live images could/can have been transmitted to the outside.

Cover Ups?

Edited March 17, 2011 by elcent

[elcent]

This shows that the lower levels of radiation are increasing constantly.

[jfchandler]

NHK video shows Japanese Self Defense Forces gathering, some in protective white suits, prior to ground water spraying operation using five fire trucks at Fukushima nuclear power plant on Thursday afternoon.

[jfchandler]

NHK late Thursday was showing a TEPCO video of the plant and its reactors shot recently by a helicopter flying over the site... Obviously, a manned helicopter..

Which kind of re-raises the question that Elcent raised above... Doesn't Japan and its Self Defense Forces have access to unmanned low-level, highly maneuverable drones or other remote controlled, unmanned reconnaissance units that could be used to shoot closeup video and/or stills of the plant and help answer questions such as, which of the spent fuel pools is the most lacking in water.

And as for the water spraying, in my past life, in very hot or dangerous or toxic industrial fires, I've seen U.S. firefighters set up monitor water streams that basically can pour water on a fire from a fixed position -- either from ground level or high atop a fire engine ladder which normally can reach about 7 stories in height -- without any required staffing once it's set up, other than being fed an ongoing supply of water via hoses, either from other fire engines or larger water sources like lakes or oceans.

Even a lot of big city SWAT police units have remote controlled automated small track vehicles equipped with all variety of technology -- video, still photography, infra-red, maybe even radiology monitoring. And while I'm sure they don't have one sitting around in storage at Fukushima, that kind of unit is certainly something that could be shipped or airlifted in...

All in all, as the saga drags on, it kind of seems like everything the Japanese are doing is incredibly low-tech and relying on human beings who face limitations because of radiation exposure risks... I'm wondering, why aren't they bringing better, non radiation sensitive resources to bear on the problem, even if they have to get them from the U.S. or U.S. military??? We've offered to give them whatever help they need, right???

Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

Here's some examples of the kinds of things I'm talking about above...

And clearly, the Japanese do have something of their own...

Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler

[WarpSpeed]

Just be aware, it's not just a matter of connecting a working AC feed...

The existing pumps in the reactors were trashed by the tsunami...

As best as I understand it, TEPCO will either need to repair those or replace them... And I haven't heard anything about their intended approach to that...

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

Edited March 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

^^Yes the Japs arguably lead the world in robotics it is amazing they don't have anything to do this kind of surveillance..This seems a tailor made circumstance for their application..

Edited March 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[elcent]

Just be aware, it's not just a matter of connecting a working AC feed...

The existing pumps in the reactors were trashed by the tsunami...

As best as I understand it, TEPCO will either need to repair those or replace them... And I haven't heard anything about their intended approach to that...

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

The electricity restored will be only used for unit 1 and 2. Others are very uncertain at the moment.

[WarpSpeed]

Just be aware, it's not just a matter of connecting a working AC feed...

The existing pumps in the reactors were trashed by the tsunami...

As best as I understand it, TEPCO will either need to repair those or replace them... And I haven't heard anything about their intended approach to that...

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

The electricity restored will be only used for unit 1 and 2. Others are very uncertain at the moment.

Yes but I never heard about any pumps being damaged in any reactors only power systems..

[elcent]

Just be aware, it's not just a matter of connecting a working AC feed...

The existing pumps in the reactors were trashed by the tsunami...

As best as I understand it, TEPCO will either need to repair those or replace them... And I haven't heard anything about their intended approach to that...

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

The electricity restored will be only used for unit 1 and 2. Others are very uncertain at the moment.

Yes but I never heard about any pumps being damaged in any reactors only power systems..

Pumps seem to be destroyed in all reactor buildings. They're talking about recharging batteries which may be not completely destroyed yet. At least as I understand in unit 1 and 2.

[James3212]

NHK late Thursday was showing a TEPCO video of the plant and its reactors shot recently by a helicopter flying over the site... Obviously, a manned helicopter..

Which kind of re-raises the question that Elcent raised above... Doesn't Japan and its Self Defense Forces have access to unmanned low-level, highly maneuverable drones or other remote controlled, unmanned reconnaissance units that could be used to shoot closeup video and/or stills of the plant and help answer questions such as, which of the spent fuel pools is the most lacking in water.

And as for the water spraying, in my past life, in very hot or dangerous or toxic industrial fires, I've seen U.S. firefighters set up monitor water streams that basically can pour water on a fire from a fixed position -- either from ground level or high atop a fire engine ladder which normally can reach about 7 stories in height -- without any required staffing once it's set up, other than being fed an ongoing supply of water via hoses, either from other fire engines or larger water sources like lakes or oceans.

Even a lot of big city SWAT police units have remote controlled automated small track vehicles equipped with all variety of technology -- video, still photography, infra-red, maybe even radiology monitoring. And while I'm sure they don't have one sitting around in storage at Fukushima, that kind of unit is certainly something that could be shipped or airlifted in...

All in all, as the saga drags on, it kind of seems like everything the Japanese are doing is incredibly low-tech and relying on human beings who face limitations because of radiation exposure risks... I'm wondering, why aren't they bringing better, non radiation sensitive resources to bear on the problem, even if they have to get them from the U.S. or U.S. military??? We've offered to give them whatever help they need, right???

Yes my thoughts exactly. They shoulda just brought in the portable diesel pumps or portable generators with electric pumps with the chinook and setup the hoses since the sea is like couple of meters away, then maybe even the workers can watch the portable pumps working from the distance...

Imo this should have been done days ago and should be in some nuclear rule-book procedure manual but then again im not one of those experts many would say... However i just wanted to ask this question..

Edited March 17, 2011 by James3212

[manarak]

...

All in all, as the saga drags on, it kind of seems like everything the Japanese are doing is incredibly low-tech and relying on human beings who face limitations because of radiation exposure risks... I'm wondering, why aren't they bringing better, non radiation sensitive resources to bear on the problem, even if they have to get them from the U.S. or U.S. military??? We've offered to give them whatever help they need, right???

Yes, my thought too.

They seem to be very slow in making things happen.

The lack of remote controlled "flying eyes" are one example.

The transfer of fire trucks by road is another - couldn't they have been transported by cargo helicopter, at least some?

Why isn't there a ballet of helicopters trying to poor water into the pools? I'd expect about a dozen helicopters making 24/7 rotations over the plant and back to the sea to refill and back to the plant again, with crews rotated as soon as they attain their radiation dosis.

I don't think the Japanese are taking that crisis lightly, so the only possible conclusion is that they don't assess the situation to be critical enough to engage in desperate measures.

This is a somewhat reassuring.

[jfchandler]

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

WS, they had a 7 meter high tsunami sweep through the plant... It messed up a lot of things, by various accounts. And they had two different kinds of backup power supplies, first generator powered (I'm assuming diesel) and then battery powered, after the main electrical reactor cooling system went out. So did all or most all of the powered backup generators due to tsunami damage, totally apart from whatever happened with their battery system. NHK has been talking about the issue all day today... how the sea water getting into all variety of electrical and other equipment there creates problems.

[elcent]

quite some seismic activities here

Last 2 Weeks of Earthquakes

(within 10 degrees of LON=144.45, LAT=38.01)

30 quakes today with up to 5.9 on the Richter scale

http://www.iris.edu/seismon/zoom/events/?lon=144.45&lat=38.01

[WarpSpeed]

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

The electricity restored will be only used for unit 1 and 2. Others are very uncertain at the moment.

Yes but I never heard about any pumps being damaged in any reactors only power systems..

Pumps seem to be destroyed in all reactor buildings. They're talking about recharging batteries which may be not completely destroyed yet. At least as I understand in unit 1 and 2.

Where? Never heard of this, anyone have any links??

[WarpSpeed]

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

WS, they had a 7 meter high tsunami sweep through the plant... It messed up a lot of things, by various accounts. And they had two different kinds of backup power supplies, first generator powered (I'm assuming diesel) and then battery powered, after the main electrical reactor cooling system went out. So did all or most all of the powered backup generators due to tsunami damage, totally apart from whatever happened with their battery system. NHK has been talking about the issue all day today... how the sea water getting into all variety of electrical and other equipment there creates problems.

Yes actually I heard 10m on CNN but what is 2 or 3 meters among friends? The pertinent part is that in that same report dating back about 2-3 days ago now they had quite an extensive and detailed graphic explanation that the diesel gens went down approximately the time of the Tsunami though the timeline is sketchy as to whether or not it was actually the Tsunami or the previous quake that did it (much of which I find to be poorly thought out preparation mind you) but there was never any mention of the pumps being physically damaged internally which is an entirely different ball game and not just a minor detail to be addressed that's why I'm questioning it, not to be confrontational, but for the purposes of clarification, accuracy and understanding..

Edit: I just read a story on Yahoo that mentioned "possible damage" to the pumps for the first time, it isn't conclusive though..

Edited March 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[elcent]

Pumps seem to be destroyed in all reactor buildings. They're talking about recharging batteries which may be not completely destroyed yet. At least as I understand in unit 1 and 2.

Where? Never heard of this, anyone have any links??

Got burried somewhere in aljazera live blogs I think. But here another hint that supports the statements that power lines are being connected to unit 2

2:50am More on attempts to reconnect power to the troubled nuclear reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex.

According to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN's atomic watchdog, Japanese engineers have laid an external grid power cable to the number 2 unit, in accordance with plans announced on Thursday.

However they can't reconnect power until they have finished spraying water on unit 3, which is at major risk of overheating and sending more radiation out into the atmosphere. Earlier attempts to drench the fuel rod pools appeared to have very limited success.

I don't think there's power in unit 3 and 4. No need? - or is there anything damaged beyound repair?

And I remember that they were talking of recharging the batteries which are kind of fixed on the chest of the reactors 1 and 2. They maybe undamaged, but that could be proven wrong too when they connect it with the power grid then.

Edited March 17, 2011 by elcent

[WarpSpeed]

Pumps seem to be destroyed in all reactor buildings. They're talking about recharging batteries which may be not completely destroyed yet. At least as I understand in unit 1 and 2.

Where? Never heard of this, anyone have any links??

Got burried somewhere in aljazera live blogs I think. But here another hint that supports the statements that power lines are being connected to unit 2

2:50am More on attempts to reconnect power to the troubled nuclear reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex.

According to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN's atomic watchdog, Japanese engineers have laid an external grid power cable to the number 2 unit, in accordance with plans announced on Thursday.

However they can't reconnect power until they have finished spraying water on unit 3, which is at major risk of overheating and sending more radiation out into the atmosphere. Earlier attempts to drench the fuel rod pools appeared to have very limited success.

Actually I was asking where the link regarding the pump damage was not a confirmation on power restoration attempts..

I don't think there's power in unit 3 and 4. No need? - or is there anything damaged beyound repair?

And I remember that they were talking of recharging the batteries which are kind of fixed on the chest of the reactors 1 and 2. They maybe undamaged, but that could be proven wrong too when they connect it with the power grid then.

There's definitely still a need as they still need to be cooled... 4 has no rods in the reactor but has spent rods in it in storage..

I shutter to think if this earthquake had happened on land, but who knows? Maybe it being offshore with this massive Tsunami was the "perfect storm" of earthquake catastrophe...

Edited March 17, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[elcent]

I found here one

Only one of five emergency coolant pumps working at Japanese nuke reactor following earthquake - March 13

The seawater injection operation started at 4:34 p.m., but water levels in the No. 2 reactor have since fallen sharply with only one out of five fire pumps working. The other four were feared to have been damaged by a blast that occurred in the morning at the nearby No. 3 reactor.

The utility firm said a hydrogen explosion at the nearby No. 3 reactor that occurred Monday morning may have caused a glitch in the cooling system of the No. 2 reactor. http://english.kyodo...1/03/77870.html

US high-pressure pumps go to ailing Japan reactor

March 16 - http://news.yahoo.co...arusmilitaryaid

As of Friday afternoon, additional backup generators were en route to the plant, and unit 1's coolant system was running temporarily on a battery. Japanese regulators stated that pressure in the reactor had risen to 1.5 times normal levels. At 750 degrees, an engineer familiar with the BWR design told the Los Angeles Times Friday, the temperature is well below the 2,200-degree design limit for preventing cladding failure.

http://nuclearstreet...uake031101.aspx

Reactor 3 at its Limits, Sea Water Damaged Pumps, Reactors 5 & 6 Pools heating - March 17

Earlier press conference it was disclosed that reactor 3, Fukushima Daiichi plant, had reached its "limits". Gamma radiation detected.

Officials have also stated that the use of sea water had damaged cooling pumps, which is why they had to replace them.

Reactors 5 & 6 spent fuel rod pools are showing increasing temperature. At the current rate of heat build up, they believe the pools could hit boiling within a week. This is why they are trying to connect new power lines to the plant, in order to restart coolant pumps.

http://www.americabl...cy-coolant.html

[elcent]

just the 31 quake within 24 hours with a 5.0 on the Richter scale. Very active ... click at the location on the image to read the data http://www.iris.edu/seismon/zoom/?view=eveday&lon=137&lat=39

[eyeofskye]

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

WS, they had a 7 meter high tsunami sweep through the plant... It messed up a lot of things, by various accounts. And they had two different kinds of backup power supplies, first generator powered (I'm assuming diesel) and then battery powered, after the main electrical reactor cooling system went out. So did all or most all of the powered backup generators due to tsunami damage, totally apart from whatever happened with their battery system. NHK has been talking about the issue all day today... how the sea water getting into all variety of electrical and other equipment there creates problems.

Hi, first post!

It seems to me the problem they will have in connecting external power is where exactly to connect it. The electrical systems will interconnect all over the plant and a fair amount of that is trashed by water or explosion. All that has to be isolated before any power can be injected and the remaining systems will have to be modified to accept the absence of the rest. It's not like just putting in another set of 'D cells'.

Rgds to all

Brian

[elcent]

Just an interesting input on a German Forum

It was observed each time when the radiation peaked the online sites went down and opened when normal data was shown.

This why I couldn't access them for many times. And the sites were not timed out either or jammed.

Edited March 17, 2011 by elcent

[elcent]

Where was this stated? I understood previously that the damage was to the back up generators only and the batteries were incapable of operating them for any significant length of time, nothing about the pumps being additionally damaged?

WS, they had a 7 meter high tsunami sweep through the plant... It messed up a lot of things, by various accounts. And they had two different kinds of backup power supplies, first generator powered (I'm assuming diesel) and then battery powered, after the main electrical reactor cooling system went out. So did all or most all of the powered backup generators due to tsunami damage, totally apart from whatever happened with their battery system. NHK has been talking about the issue all day today... how the sea water getting into all variety of electrical and other equipment there creates problems.

Hi, first post!

It seems to me the problem they will have in connecting external power is where exactly to connect it. The electrical systems will interconnect all over the plant and a fair amount of that is trashed by water or explosion. All that has to be isolated before any power can be injected and the remaining systems will have to be modified to accept the absence of the rest. It's not like just putting in another set of 'D cells'.

Rgds to all

Brian

Hi and welcome

You're right. It seems they get new pumps and that everything needs to be reinstalled, - kind of. The other pumps seem to be damged by explosions and sea water.

[Maestro]

Pumps seem to be destroyed in all reactor buildings. They're talking about recharging batteries which may be not completely destroyed yet. At least as I understand in unit 1 and 2.

Where? Never heard of this, anyone have any links??

Might have been this entry on the AlJazeera blog dated 17 March 2011 (highlighting in red is mine):

3:14am

The US military has delivered high-pressure water pumps to Japan to help cool Fukushima's crisis-hit nuclear power plant.

The pumps were ferried to Yokota Air Force Base for use at the crippled Fukushima plant, with four additional pumps delivered from Sasebo, in Japan's southwest, the US Pacific Fleet said in a statement.

Rising temperatures caused by damage to the cooling system pumps during Friday's earthquake are cauding the water in the reactor cores to turn to steam, increasing pressure, and exposing the fuel rods.

Source: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/disaster-japan-march-17-live-blog

[Maestro]

I read today, probably in this topic, that radiation levels were too high for the water cannons to get close enough to spray on the reactors. Will they be able to get close enough to wherever they need to go to connect the new power cable?

[Maestro]

Got burried somewhere in aljazera live blogs I think.

It's advisable always to post a link to the source in every post, even if it means posting the same link repeatedly when the same source is quoted in more than one post, like for example with the AlJazeera blog.

[Maestro]

AlJazeera blog 2011-03-17:

11:00pm

More on the move by Tokyo Electric Power Co (Tepco) to install outside electricity at the damaged nuclear facility to restore power to the cooling pumps.

According to news reports in Japan, Thursday's attempt to set up power cables were unsuccessful, delaying the move until Friday. The reasons why are not clear.

It is likely that trucks and heliopters will also be used again to dump water on the reactors in an attempt to cool them down.

Source: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/disaster-japan-march-17-live-blog

[Maestro]

AlJazeera blog 2011-03-18:

1:11am

The latest disaster has placed Japan's nuclear safety record under scrutiny. Here's a list of some of the country's major atomic problems:

In 1997, at least 37 workers were exposed to radiation at the Tokaimura plant, after a fire and explosion.

In 1999, workers were reported to be hand-mixing uranium at the same plant. Two workers later died.

Hundreds of people were exposed to radiation and thousands evacuated in the same year after an accident at Tokaimura.

The Fukushima number 1 plant has also had problems in the past. In 2006, a small amount of radioactive steam seeped out and blew beyond the compound.

In 2007, a powerful earthquake caused malfunctions at the Kashiwazaki Kariwa nuclear plant. The damage included radioactive water spills, burst pipes and fires.

Source:http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/disaster-japan-live-blog-march-18

[Maestro]

AlJazeera blog 2011-03-18

2:50am

More on attempts to reconnect power to the troubled nuclear reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex.

According to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN's atomic watchdog, Japanese engineers have laid an external grid power cable to the number 2 unit, in accordance with plans announced on Thursday.

However they can't reconnect power until they have finished spraying water on unit 3, which is at major risk of overheating and sending more radiation out into the atmosphere. Earlier attempts to drench the fuel rod pools appeared to have very limited success.

Source: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/disaster-japan-live-blog-march-18

[Maestro]

AlJazeera blog 2011-03-18

3:42am

Here's a screen grab from the video linked to earlier, showing the extent of the damage done to the reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi complex. This shot shows the damage done to the unit 4 reactor, where emergency workers earlier attempted to fire water at in a bid to cool the fuel rods.

Four explosions have hit the nuclear complex since the 9.0 magnitude earthquake struck on Friday.

Photo by Reuters

Source: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/disaster-japan-live-blog-march-18