The Music Is Over

[OzMick]

This may sound arrogant,but show me a Thai musician, who can do a better job than me!!! very hard to find my friends, not only are we artists,we are specialized entertainers,making people feel great and that's the name of the game,people feel great in a place ,they come back!

Well good for you. Now get a work permit, like any other worker, and everybody will be happy.

[cbc]

what about those so called music police that go around all the foreign owned bars or bars that are in the name of the thai wife and they take away all computer's and music even if it is not thai music.Then they make the owners pay a fine to get their computer's back.Some pay 20.000 baht or some pay 12.000 depending on what these police will settle for.Happened recently to a friend of mine.Sure put a dent in his monthly income as time's are tough now and it is low season.No illegal working was being done either.No search warrant and no trial or charges laid.Just demanded money.And these so called police are in civilian clothing.

[FrankieDimes]

The problem is, that Thailand as a whole is not UNITED!! pockets of idiots all over the place, working for personal gain, immigration against Police, Police against Army,Army against politicians, politicians against their people and the people against us, we should teach them a lesson and just piss off for a while, taking our money with us!!!!

Hmmm, this is too touchy for me, maybe i shouldn't comment ....

Excluding farang big businesses/factories, the amount of money the average Joe farang adds to the Thai economy is a drop in the bucket when you consider all of Thailand/the entire GDP/the entire 68 million Thai population. Even tourism with the millions upon millions of tourists visiting Thailand each year only accounts for approx 6% of the country's GDP. While some businesses would miss the average farang money, as mentioned on a country-wide basis we add just a drop to the Thailand GDP bucket.

I am not disputing you, i am just asking a question. Do these numbers include money paid to thai sex workers by farang? Are thai sex workers, including freelancers, required to submit a yearly tax return reporting this income? Many thais receive monthly support from farangs living abroad, is the money sent to thais from abroad included in your numbers? Are thai people required to report this as income on a tax return? Surely, looking at the whole of thailand the contribution from farang may seem like a small percent, but for millions of thai people money from farang may constitute up to 100% of their yearly income. For the millions who rely heavily on farangs/tourism for support/income, it could be devastating for them to drive farangs out of the country. Let's be real here, Thailand is not farang friendly. If it was not for the need of farang money, Thailand would have banned all farang from the country along time ago. (just my opinion)

[LivinLOS]

So how is it any different than Karaoke which it seems is accepted.

[OzMick]

On Samui, there are filipino bands that work full gigs, 7 nights a week. They don't have visas, let alone work permits, but seem to have acquired invisibility as far as the BIB are concerned. Bring on the crackdown!

[freedom4life]

What nonsense. At one time, the bars were unknown. Now they have a name in town and the police have got wind of it. They want in on the action; many can attest to that. That is the biggest problem with Thailand, if not the whole world...money. Same thing happened with casinos, they were allowed to operate as long as the police(authorities) were being paid-off.When business was bad and police(authorities) could not be paid and the casinos could no longer pay; that meant that the latter could no longer operate. Such utter nonsense and corruption.

[thailandist]

the government of thailand had better get a grip and wise up, foreighners have poured money into this country for years and still do, if this kind of behaviour against us continues we will find cambodia a more suitable place as do a lot of people and ex pats allready, these laws are just a slap on the face for us foreigners and it makes me think that thai people dont really want us here, or do not really even like us , they have stopped foreigners getting religious tattoo,s allready which is maybe fair enough but why not stop thai people getting religious tattoo,s ? double pricing against foreigners ? i could go on and on

This statement has been regurgitated for years and years (along with the on and on version) but Thailand still continues to be flooded with tourists and expats willing to put up with it. That will not change. TAT is exploring new markets to bring in more and more tourists so Thailand will continue to grow and people will continue to get hosed for money in the future, most likely on a larger scale. Thailand has a lot more to offer us than Cambodia at the moment in regards to the many options of comforts we seek. Because of those options most of us will stay put. As a side note, most Thais DO NOT want us here and most DO NOT like us. Deal with it and act accordingly or book your ticket out.

[Arkady]

ya this is informative but i'm not sure if it is correct outside Chang Mai.

i have heard from many sources that volunteer work does not violate the Alien Work Act.

you cannot do work that a Thai can get paid for. Thai's don't do volunteer work.

Volunteer work is quite clearly in violation of the 2008 Working of Aliens Act, as it was under its 1978 predecessor. Instead of consulting many ignorant sources, you can easily read a translation of the Act itself and see for yourself. There is one here: http://www.thailawonline.com/en/thai-laws/laws-of-thailand/98-working-of-alien-act-2521-1978-thailand.html. In Section 5 work is defined extremely broadly thus: "'work' means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit".

Contrary to what is suggested by the writer of the Chiang Mai Mail article, who obviously also didn't bother to read the law, there is no issue as to whether a Thai could do the job or not, although it is possible that Labour Ministry or Immigration officials might include this in their personal interpretations. Unlike many other countries which require evidence of unsuccessful recruitment efforts to find a local, including advertisements, there is no requirement to provide evidence that the employer attempted to find a Thai to do the job. The law seems to deem that Thais are sufficiently protected by the outdated list of prohibited occupations and the law actually allows for free competition for all other jobs. This is, however, subject to all the bureaucratic barriers erected by the the Labour Ministry and Immigration Bureau through ministerial regulations, national police orders and the power vested in junior bureaucrats to the interpret the law according to personal whims.

It is comforting to read that a Ruchuapan believes a judge would not convict some one for jamming on stage and I believe this is probably the case. However, before appearing in front of judge, you would no doubt be shaken down mercilessly by the Immigration police (I don't think the Labour Ministry investigators have any funds to pay OT to work outside civil service hours) and forced to cough up to avoid rotting in the disease ridden Immigration lock-up for months without bail.

[atyclb]

This is pathetic. I am in Japan and I have seen plenty of non work visa musicians/singers performing at bars without a problem. Japan is a nice place but in many respects extremely xenophobic. However, when it comes to things like people singing/playing music in a usual bar, they don't care! Just let the people play and have a bit of fun.

Maybe the underlying problem is that with all the lies and corruption perpetrated by the locals, the government officials are of the opinion that if we Thais, who are so wonderful/great and can do no wrong, then we need to doubly check those dirty foreigners.

Would it surprise anyone to learn the "tea money" team visits 100% Thai owned mainstream businesses at respected shopping malls ??

[dasy]

hahaha this is great news for people like me jumping on stage to sing a song when the band needs a singer for a song or two 5555555 while the crowd is cheering I am cuffed and removed from the stage and charged to work without a permit it always amazes me how you can shoot your self in the foot time after time. Cannot stop laughing.

It's the same thing that happens over and over in Thailand, there is not one month without some major story that illustrates exactly that:

Thai Immigration is working against the Tourism Authority of Thailand.

While the TAT or a city tries to attract foreigners and to create a new image (like in the above case, Chiang Mai trying to get a 'Creative City' tag), the Immigration comes in and puts up another of these 'crackdowns'. There would be so many other ways to do this than this very harsh and 'violent' way … but there doesn't seem to be a will to think in an open-minded and reasonable kind of way at Immigration.

It happens again and again in Thailand. I wonder what's the reason for this historic animosity of Immigration against tourism goals.

[weary]

The word "artist" is thrown around far too casually in the article. What is being talked about are "performing artists" (to use the term very loosely) who are doing little more than hacking their way through bad covers of somebody else's songs. Virtually none of them will be people of unique talent losing the opportunity to compose and refine original compositions of any quality.

Edit for spelling.

I think you are missing the point. Whether covers or not, whether you personally like the way they are being performed or not, the open mic nights filled a social function for those involved and attracted both tourists and locals. This makes the city a more agreeable and lively place. If that is not enough of a reason, then here is another one: An active music scene helps to foster new musicians with original talent. Musicians learn from each other. Great original music is rarely the result of a solitary vacuum, it is the result of much listening and practice. Reducing people's opportunity to participate in musical activities is not conducive to creativity, nor to the vision of Chiang Mai Creative City.

Finally, nobody is forcing you to listen. Feel free to stay at home and listen to your own recordings created by artists to your own liking, or to travel to find their live performances, or to go to venues without live music here in CM. For many retirees and other expats, music is a hobby or recreational activity, it is a real shame that they should have to fear legal repercussions for just having what is, essentially, harmless fun.

[Arkady]

What nonsense. At one time, the bars were unknown. Now they have a name in town and the police have got wind of it. They want in on the action; many can attest to that. That is the biggest problem with Thailand, if not the whole world...money. Same thing happened with casinos, they were allowed to operate as long as the police(authorities) were being paid-off.When business was bad and police(authorities) could not be paid and the casinos could no longer pay; that meant that the latter could no longer operate. Such utter nonsense and corruption.

The issue with casinos is completely different. There is always a backlash from groups like the Santi Asoke sect when any one proposes legalising casinos. Chatichai and Thaksin both tried to do it but gave up. Assuming the bar owners in question had been paying what the police requested in protection money (and they are not shy in naming their price), they would not be raided for foreign musicians. As the article points out, Thai citizens must have complained and the authorities are legally obliged to investigate each and every complaint on this by Thai citizens. If they refused to pay what the police asked for, it would only a matter of time before they were closed down. Local police will not usually use work permit and immigration laws to shut down bad payers because these laws are outwith their jurisdiction. It is much easier for them to use licence violations like persistently staying open beyond legal hours or serving underage drinkers. They don't need any evidence of these allegations and can close bars under their authority.

[tjrd12]

The word "artist" is thrown around far too casually in the article. What is being talked about are "performing artists" (to use the term very loosely) who are doing little more than hacking their way through bad covers of somebody else's songs. Virtually none of them will be people of unique talent losing the opportunity to compose and refine original compositions of any quality.

Edit for spelling.

I think you are missing the point. Whether covers or not, whether you personally like the way they are being performed or not, the open mic nights filled a social function for those involved and attracted both tourists and locals. This makes the city a more agreeable and lively place. If that is not enough of a reason, then here is another one: An active music scene helps to foster new musicians with original talent. Musicians learn from each other. Great original music is rarely the result of a solitary vacuum, it is the result of much listening and practice. Reducing people's opportunity to participate in musical activities is not conducive to creativity, nor to the vision of Chiang Mai Creative City.

Finally, nobody is forcing you to listen. Feel free to stay at home and listen to your own recordings created by artists to your own liking, or to travel to find their live performances, or to go to venues without live music here in CM. For many retirees and other expats, music is a hobby or recreational activity, it is a real shame that they should have to fear legal repercussions for just having what is, essentially, harmless fun.

Very well stated. I agree 100%.

[Kilgore Trout]

A lot of <deleted> written here by posters.

If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.

I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.

Complete load of crap; I have rarely been to a Thai restaurant in the states in my town w/out someone playing Thai music, usually students who aren't allowed to work; not to mention the waiters and waitresses are mostly Thai students, again not allowed to work.

They don't hire Thai cooks though; all of the cooks are Mexican; even the Thai's know their own people's work ethic

Most Thais I know who are not students in the states get green cards; apply for benefits from govt. then work under the table; completely screwing the govt. and taxpayers.

And there is no way in hell immigration would ever arrest someone for jamming at an open mike night.

This is definitely a TIT thing.

[bazmlb]

ya this is informative but i'm not sure if it is correct outside Chang Mai.

i have heard from many sources that volunteer work does not violate the Alien Work Act.

you cannot do work that a Thai can get paid for. Thai's don't do volunteer work.

Volunteer work is quite clearly in violation of the 2008 Working of Aliens Act, as it was under its 1978 predecessor. Instead of consulting many ignorant sources, you can easily read a translation of the Act itself and see for yourself. There is one here: http://www.thailawonline.com/en/thai-laws/laws-of-thailand/98-working-of-alien-act-2521-1978-thailand.html. In Section 5 work is defined extremely broadly thus: "'work' means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit".

Contrary to what is suggested by the writer of the Chiang Mai Mail article, who obviously also didn't bother to read the law, there is no issue as to whether a Thai could do the job or not, although it is possible that Labour Ministry or Immigration officials might include this in their personal interpretations. Unlike many other countries which require evidence of unsuccessful recruitment efforts to find a local, including advertisements, there is no requirement to provide evidence that the employer attempted to find a Thai to do the job. The law seems to deem that Thais are sufficiently protected by the outdated list of prohibited occupations and the law actually allows for free competition for all other jobs. This is, however, subject to all the bureaucratic barriers erected by the the Labour Ministry and Immigration Bureau through ministerial regulations, national police orders and the power vested in junior bureaucrats to the interpret the law according to personal whims.

It is comforting to read that a Ruchuapan believes a judge would not convict some one for jamming on stage and I believe this is probably the case. However, before appearing in front of judge, you would no doubt be shaken down mercilessly by the Immigration police (I don't think the Labour Ministry investigators have any funds to pay OT to work outside civil service hours) and forced to cough up to avoid rotting in the disease ridden Immigration lock-up for months without bail.

The article is from City Life, not Chiang Mai Mail.

[Arkady]

On Samui, there are filipino bands that work full gigs, 7 nights a week. They don't have visas, let alone work permits, but seem to have acquired invisibility as far as the BIB are concerned. Bring on the crackdown!

In Bangkok there are also a large number of Filipinos working 6 or 7 nights a weeks in many types of bar. Only the ones employed in large hotels have work permits, as it is too much hassle for the employers of smaller establishments. They would probably take the brunt if a national crackdown materialised.

[BlueSmurf]

Point taken!

[Arkady]

ya this is informative but i'm not sure if it is correct outside Chang Mai.

i have heard from many sources that volunteer work does not violate the Alien Work Act.

you cannot do work that a Thai can get paid for. Thai's don't do volunteer work.

Volunteer work is quite clearly in violation of the 2008 Working of Aliens Act, as it was under its 1978 predecessor. Instead of consulting many ignorant sources, you can easily read a translation of the Act itself and see for yourself. There is one here: http://www.thailawonline.com/en/thai-laws/laws-of-thailand/98-working-of-alien-act-2521-1978-thailand.html. In Section 5 work is defined extremely broadly thus: "'work' means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit".

Contrary to what is suggested by the writer of the Chiang Mai Mail article, who obviously also didn't bother to read the law, there is no issue as to whether a Thai could do the job or not, although it is possible that Labour Ministry or Immigration officials might include this in their personal interpretations. Unlike many other countries which require evidence of unsuccessful recruitment efforts to find a local, including advertisements, there is no requirement to provide evidence that the employer attempted to find a Thai to do the job. The law seems to deem that Thais are sufficiently protected by the outdated list of prohibited occupations and the law actually allows for free competition for all other jobs. This is, however, subject to all the bureaucratic barriers erected by the the Labour Ministry and Immigration Bureau through ministerial regulations, national police orders and the power vested in junior bureaucrats to the interpret the law according to personal whims.

It is comforting to read that a Ruchuapan believes a judge would not convict some one for jamming on stage and I believe this is probably the case. However, before appearing in front of judge, you would no doubt be shaken down mercilessly by the Immigration police (I don't think the Labour Ministry investigators have any funds to pay OT to work outside civil service hours) and forced to cough up to avoid rotting in the disease ridden Immigration lock-up for months without bail.

The article is from City Life, not Chiang Mai Mail.

My apologies to Chiang Mai Mail.

[bazmlb]

This may sound arrogant,but show me a Thai musician, who can do a better job than me!!! very hard to find my friends, not only are we artists,we are specialized entertainers,making people feel great and that's the name of the game,people feel great in a place ,they come back!

I recently went to the opening of a open mic bar in Pattaya, they had a few foreign groups lined up and one group of Thai's, the foreigners nearly went home after hearing how good they played, they were possibly one of the best groups I have heard in Thailand and they were just 14 and 15 years old.

[blabla1]

that's he point my boy, never gonna happen....

This may sound arrogant,but show me a Thai musician, who can do a better job than me!!! very hard to find my friends, not only are we artists,we are specialized entertainers,making people feel great and that's the name of the game,people feel great in a place ,they come back!

Well good for you. Now get a work permit, like any other worker, and everybody will be happy.

[blabla1]

Point being, that it's not easy to replace us (not all muso's there's very bad farang muso's here)with local talent, secondly, it is not really seen as a specialized work, some would argue it's not work at all!

This may sound arrogant,but show me a Thai musician, who can do a better job than me!!! very hard to find my friends, not only are we artists,we are specialized entertainers,making people feel great and that's the name of the game,people feel great in a place ,they come back!

I recently went to the opening of a open mic bar in Pattaya, they had a few foreign groups lined up and one group of Thai's, the foreigners nearly went home after hearing how good they played, they were possibly one of the best groups I have heard in Thailand and they were just 14 and 15 years old.

[Just1Voice]

The WHOLE thing is a complete and utter mess with nobody seemingly knowing what's allowed and legal and what is taboo and may or may not be illegal.

There is too much ambiguity here with different departments imposing their own interpretation of matters according to how they see it!!! Why on earth can't they decide on and implement rules and regulations that are clear cut and precise and not so open to personal interpretation which is only going to cause complete confusion and concerns for everyone about doing something unwittingly just in case they are arrested for it.

People may not agree with these laws but it lessens the risk of falling fail of them if they understand what they are all about.

Because THAT would actually make sense.

Oh, well, I used to be disgusted.

But now I'm just amused

[Tokay]

Lets be honest, Thais simply can't handle foreigners involved in anything that foreigners can do better.

Thais slaughter live western music. It's usually beyond awful. I will not even go into a venue if a Thai band is playing.

Many of them don't/can't even tune their instruments properly for professional recordings. Their guitars are often out of slightly tune even for top recording artists. How not a single person at a recording studio doesn't catch this is beyond me. Tuning an instrument "good enough" doesn't work, you're either in tune or your out of tune.

I understand about WORKING. If you're going to work, get a work permit. But JAMMING... come on. What if you want to jam with a bunch of other foreigners at your house? They going to put an end to that too?

I think it all boils down to local musicians losing face once a foreigner takes the stage, because most of them are as bad a musician as they are home builders.

[pacovl46]

i'm betting it was the local thai musician community who notified the police because they went out of business due to the high demand of falang artists ;-)

[furyrider]

A lot of <deleted> written here by posters.

If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.

I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.

I don't know the work visa for Thailand but I am not sure there is a permit or permissions that can be had like the US or UK. It just seems to me that all of this only hurts Thailand not help or protect the Thais. But thats Thailand the HUB of Stupidity

[dunkin2012]

Lets be honest, Thais simply can't handle foreigners involved in anything that foreigners can do better.

Thais slaughter live western music. It's usually beyond awful. I will not even go into a venue if a Thai band is playing.

Many of them don't/can't even tune their instruments properly for professional recordings. Their guitars are often out of slightly tune even for top recording artists. How not a single person at a recording studio doesn't catch this is beyond me. Tuning an instrument "good enough" doesn't work, you're either in tune or your out of tune.

I understand about WORKING. If you're going to work, get a work permit. But JAMMING... come on. What if you want to jam with a bunch of other foreigners at your house? They going to put an end to that too?

I think it all boils down to local musicians losing face once a foreigner takes the stage, because most of them are as bad a musician as they are home builders.

very impressive statement!!!!!

Vanessa May is half Thai / Chinese!!!! do you know her? Do you know how hard to play Violin?

besides, we have been talkin' about jamming at a venue, that is in Public.

from your comment, I assume that you can tune most musical instruments. what is the standard guitar tuning then? middle C ? .... what is no sharp no flat?

many Thai groups in walking street ,Pattaya. I know them ... Excellent skills though

-----do you think you are keith urban?

Edited June 2, 2011 by dunkin2012

[PingManDan]

Man they really do hate the Farangs

[Janram]

The word "artist" is thrown around far too casually in the article. What is being talked about are "performing artists" (to use the term very loosely) who are doing little more than hacking their way through bad covers of somebody else's songs. Virtually none of them will be people of unique talent losing the opportunity to compose and refine original compositions of any quality.

Edit for spelling.

Well, yes and no! as far as Chang Mai goes i know some Aussies there that write and perform great orginal Thai and western music every week, well probably up till now. i was down in Phuket performing originals and covers 5 to 6 nights a week from 2005 over 5 years in my restaurant bar called 2 black sheep in patong. i didn't find it hard to have musician added to my work permit that was attached to my business. i did meet a lot of hackers as you call them, mostly from Oz and Europe playing around, they would play the same borrrrring standards, they were talented at copying but nothing on the thai musos. But!!! I think this is about something else. it is not exspensive or impossible to set up a company and start playing music in your business or others. Yes,,, we paid and paid, immigration, other goverment offices & local police, whats new? I wonder how much they are taking off the poor guys that got busted? maybe that's all it's about. I remember the police walking in to our place more than once and pulling our entertainment license off the wall. ripping it up and arresting me for not having an entertainment license. Now it wasn't about me playing music was it?

[OldeBellPedr]

Before everyone gets too rabidly anti Thai, This crackdown started not because of a few foreigners spontaneously jamming, but because some were clearly being paid -in cash or in kind- for playing music. It's the same logic that stopped repeat 30 day visa runs: guys were running businesses, earning money, usually not paying taxes and generally ignoring Thai law. We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.

I know that behind the scenes there are individuals and organisations in Chiang Mai that are trying to engage with the authorities in an attempt to sort out this mess. I hope they manage to, because music should be international and making music should be freely undertaken by any that choose. But it should be clearly understood that once payment is made in cash or in kind it stops being a creative jam and constitutes work and foreigners require work permits which they wont get!

In the future it is to be hoped that Thailand will introduce a simplified easily obtainable work permit for this kind of cultural activity which clearly can be better done by foreigners. I don't think it will happen any time soon though!

[aechzen]

many teachers have no work permit too and they work at school,i never hear they are arestet. musicans can not jam now , why they not put every farang a chip inside who visit thailand so they can control all of them ?? music is feeling from soul but rule is rule to catch money without workpermit is against the law.then make new laws , would be more easy sounds like the jelouse on the farang musicans, in every country is alowed the street musicans , they work to survive ,thailand is hard to get some regular work,many people work for movies here, for thai comercinals, they have workpermit ? if you hang out in music bars you can listen to thai songs or copy english songs most in every bar same songs ,than some farang play other songs maybe is not allowed hahahaha the like only farang visit and spent money in music bars , no preform allowed now