Banking For Americans In Thailand 101

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In the news today... I've never known that Thailand had "credit unions." But it's nice to see they're operating in sync with local customs.

Credit Union execs accused of embezzling Bt12 billion
Piyanut Tumnukasetchai
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Mounting evidence that Klongchan Credit Union Cooperative Ltd embezzled nearly Bt12 billion has led the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and the Anti Money Laundering Office (AMLO) to launch an investigation into the company and its executives.

More than 100 customers have lodged complaints against the cooperative's chairman, Supachai Srisupaaksorn, other executives and officials, after they were unable to withdraw money from their accounts with the cooperative, a source revealed yesterday.

A joint team from the DSI and AMLO searched the cooperative and Supachai's houses yesterday. AMLO official Noppadon Uten said Supachai and other executives allegedly owned more than 300 plots of land. "Some of the plots are worth more than Bt90 million," he said.

MORE:

A TV member who's family has a deposit in this CU reported in response to the article in that thread:

The credit union has just over 52,000 members with assets of 22.4 billion Baht, deposits totaling 14.41 billion Baht and outstanding loans of 15 billion Baht.

Edited July 11, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Zeek...that's very helpful info... if I understand correctly that you're talking about having a Cap One 360 MC-logo debit card.

Cap One, as Pib mentions, changed their bank card network a while back, and that caused problems that led to their regular ATM cards (without any VISA or MC logo) no longer working in AEON ATMs, whereas they had worked before.

Separate from that, it's been a bit unclear until now whether Cap One 360 MC-logo debit cards also suffered from the same problem with AEON ATMs... You appear to be saying they do, which is unfortunate.

Because of the recency of ING's turnover to Cap One 360, we haven't had a lot of member posts with clear results on the subject of Cap One 360 debit cards.

All of this would be extra bad news because as far as I can see, the Cap One 360 checking accounts also no longer offer ATM fee rebates/refunds for fees charged by other ATM operators other than Cap One. So you can use your Cap One MC at other Thai banks' ATMs, but will get hit with their local 180 baht withdrawal fee for foreign MC logo cards.... Not good.

No my CO card is not a 360 card its a CO direct banking platinum mastercard if you click on the link in post 381 about the lady's CO experience my card looks just like that. And it has a mastercard logo on the front and on the back it has a holographic logo that says debit in the middle of it with mastercard wrote all around the word debit inside the holographic logo. See post 376 about it not working at aeon.

For zeek: On the back of your card anywhere does it also say "CIRRUS", show a CIRRUS logo, and give a phone number to call which might reflect CIRRUS as part of the phone number vs actually have the numbers.

Just FYI for anyone's feedback:

The more I read up (google) on all the various card networks, many of which are owned by MasterCard like the Maestro and CIRRUS networks, along with the CapOne debit/ATM card not working in AEON ATMs which probably do not support CIRRUS on "any" of their ATMs "regardless" of the logo labeling on the ATM, right now I'm still in the camp that for ATM withdrawals CapOne or CapOne 360 ATM/debit cards use the CIRRUS network for ATM withdrawals and I guess also the AllPoint network which is mostly in North America only. But since all Thai bank ATMs support CIRRUS, their ATMs will work with CapOne debit cards.

And just because MasterCard owns CIRRUS that does not mean many Visa credit or debit cards might not use the CIRRUS network--I just finished looking at my various debit and credit cards and two of "Visa" credit cards reflect the CIRRUS logo on the back of the cards.

And the MasterCard logo, or even Visa logo, on the front of the cards is really representing to the "overarching" logo of these companies and is not to be confused with the "networks" they own/use for transactions such as CIRRUS, Plus, Star, Maestro, and numerous other networks like the AllPoint network now popular in the U.S.

Me thinks the Cap One debit cards need a CIRRUS network but would also work with certain other networks like AllPoint but you probably ain't going to find any AllPoint ATMs/network capability outside of North America.

In closing, a cut and paste/quote from the Masterard web site about their CIRRUS network. What I find interesting is the 2nd and 3rd sentences, like where the 2nd sentence talks about how CIRRUS can be used in standalone mode or combined with MasterCard's POS brands---I think this might be saying the CIRRUS network would be used for ATM transactions/withdrawals but another MasterCard owned networked used for POS transactions. And where the 3d sentence says the CIRRUS network can be used with competing card brands like Visa---good to see MasterCard is willing to go on contract with/sell network services to even its major competitor (Visa).

Cirrus

Cirrus is MasterCard's ATM-only brand, and offers cardholders secure access to cash and other banking services. Cirrus can stand alone or sit with MasterCard's point-of-sale brands, giving them ATM access. It can also be used by competing brands such as Diners Club, VISA and private label credit cards, to provide ATM access for those cards. The Cirrus logo appears on over 920 million cards, with issuance particularly strong in North America. Cards bearing the Cirrus logo can be used at over 900,000 Cirrus ATMs worldwide.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Pib, I think the issue you're not addressing is... why all of a sudden are AEON's new ATM machines suddenly showing panels that include the CIRRUS logo, when the older ones don't/didn't have that?

It's probably a bit much to think or suggest they added the CIRRUS logo by mistake. There's presumably some reason they're showing the logo now. I don't know what that is... But the only way we're going to find out is to test drive those new AEON ATMs that show the CIRRUS logo using our various Cap One cards.

[Pib]

Pib, I think the issue you're not addressing is... why all of a sudden are AEON's new ATM machines suddenly showing panels that include the CIRRUS logo, when the older ones don't/didn't have that?

It's probably a bit much to think or suggest they added the CIRRUS logo by mistake. There's presumably some reason they're showing the logo now. I don't know what that is... But the only way we're going to find out is to test drive those new AEON ATMs that show the CIRRUS logo using our various Cap One cards.

I don't think its a bit to much to think the Cirrus network logo got added on the newer machines by mistake or possibly AEON plans to support Cirrus in the near future. Could have been a standard/all the major logos paint job so to speak, maybe the AEON folks forget to tell the manufacturer not to include the Cirrus logo, or maybe AEON is planning to add the Cirrus network at some point in the near future.

Me thinks the coding on the CapOne card when slid into an ATM says "Hey Mr ATM, connect me to the Cirrus network I need to get some cash." But then Mr AEON ATM replies he don't support the Cirrus network...bug off...come back when you also support another network that I do support." But if a person was to use the CapOne card in a POS machine when buying something, that POS machine which would most likely be a Bangkok Bank, K-Bank, or SCB POS machine that does support Cirrus then the transaction processes no problem or maybe uses another network to process the POS transaction.

That's what me thinks, but me is somewhat guessing since trying to research the smoke-and-mirrors of card networks provides a lot of vague/layman's words without a lot of details....leaves a lot of questions.

Another question for Zeek I forgot to ask: Does the AEON ATM flat out reject the CapOne debit card....I mean you can't even get it to accept your PIN? Or does it accept the PIN, you can then enter the amount of money your want, you hit the Spit Out Money button, and then the AEON ATM gives a No Can Do response?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That's what me thinks, but me is somewhat guessing since trying to research the smoke-and-mirrors of card networks provides a lot of vague/layman's words without a lot of details....leaves a lot of questions.

Pib, this isn't a question that's likely going to get answered by research. It's a question, as I've said several times above, re the Cap One cards that's only going to get answered when people start trying to use them in the NEW AEON ATMs with CIRRUS logos.

[Pib]

Seems over the last year or two the number ThaiVisa posts specifically about CapOne "ATM/debit" cards has dropped way off. Plenty of discussion about CapOne credit cards but a drop-off regarding CapOne debit cards. Don't know if that is because people are not really having any CapOne debit card issues within Thailand, they are just using Thai bank ATMs instead of AEON ATMs, just switched from CapOne to another bank and now have a different debit card, or (fill in the blank).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Or...like me... have basically shelved my Cap One debit or ATM cards, in my case ATM, ever since they no longer could be used with AEON ATMs.

If I were to discover that I could now use my Cap One card with no FCF in AEON ATMs displaying the Cirrus logo, I'd quickly be back to using it as a regular card again

Plus I'd kind of like to know if we can add any of the Cap One ATM or debit cards to our "no foreign currency fee" cards list, including ones that can be used with AEON and have no Thai banks' 150/180b fee.. because people here like Zeek and others are always asking.

Edited July 11, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Langsuan Man]

Or...like me... have basically shelved my Cap One debit or ATM cards, in my case ATM, ever since they no longer could be used with AEON ATMs.

Same here but closed the Cap One Bank account but kept the Cap One Credit card account for purchases. Will have to wait till I get back to Thailand to see if my new State Farm Bank Visa® CheckCard will work with AEON

[Langsuan Man]

duplicate post

Edited July 11, 2013 by Langsuan Man

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

LSM, I believe Pib uses his State Farm card with AEON all the time... so shouldn't be any problem there.

[Pib]

Or...like me... have basically shelved my Cap One debit or ATM cards, in my case ATM, ever since they no longer could be used with AEON ATMs.

Same here but closed the Cap One Bank account but kept the Cap One Credit card account for purchases. Will have to wait till I get back to Thailand to see if my new State Farm Bank Visa® CheckCard will work with AEON

Your St Farm card will work fine on AEON...I use my St Farm debit card (a.k.a., check cardd) 3-4 times per month in AEON ATMs...in fact, I only use it in AEON ATMs because I don't want to cause St Farm to spend money on me to reimburse ATM fees like charged by Thai bank ATMs....I don't want to help kill the Reimbursement Golden Goose on any such cards that also reimburse ATM fees. Plus, I have easy access to multiple AEON ATMs here in my part of Bangkok.

[JimGant]

Will have to wait till I get back to Thailand to see if my new State Farm Bank Visa® CheckCard will work with AEON

I'm losing sight of the target.....

Is the following correct?

1. No reported problems with Aeon and Visa logoed debit/ATM cards.

2. No reported problems with Aeon and MC logoed debit/ATM cards, except *SOME* Capital One debit/ATM cards (or is that *ALL* Cap One debit/ATM cards?)

Over

[Pib]

 

Will have to wait till I get back to Thailand to see if my new State Farm Bank  Visa® CheckCard  will work with AEON

 

I'm losing sight of the target.....

 

Is the following correct?

 

1. No reported problems with Aeon and Visa logoed debit/ATM cards.

2. No reported problems with Aeon and MC logoed debit/ATM cards, except *SOME* Capital One debit/ATM cards (or is that *ALL* Cap One debit/ATM cards?)

 

Over

I think yes to your first statement. And also yes to your second statement based on "limited" MC debit card ThaiVisa posts I've seen, but like John said in an earlier post we need more feedback from CapOne MC debit card users.

Sent from my tablet

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'll be able to test my Cap One straight ATM-only card (no VISA or MC) again in a couple of days, and will specifically target an AEON ATM that's branded with a CIRRUS logo, and will report back here what happens.

Just have to find the card and brush the dust off... My Cap One ATM card has a CIRRUS logo on the back side, and that's all.

BTW Jim, for me, the "target" here is identifying and clarifying what bankcards can be used here:

1. without incurring any home country bank foreign currency fee (FCF)

and 2. hopefully those being cards that also are compatible with no-fee AEON ATMs, or at least refund the Thai banks' 150/180 baht withdrawal fees.

[JimGant]

BTW Jim, for me, the "target" here is identifying and clarifying what bankcards can be used here:

Right. I just wondered "who's on first" when LM wondered whether or not his Visa card would work in an Aeon machine. I couldn't accurately recall the extent of card problems in an Aeon machine, but didn't think they extended to Visa. And, could'nt recall if other MC logoed cards, other than CapOne, had been reported as problematic.

But, the ole memory ain't what it used to be.

[Langsuan Man]

My comment on State Farm was a result of my going to all the trouble to set up a Capital One Bank account only to have AEON stop taking Capital One Debit card several years ago, which was caused by E*trade Bank starting to charge the 1% foreign currency exchange fee, which started when the 150 THB foreign ATM fee was initiated by Thai Bankers Association

So you will have to excuse my reluctance to accept any assurances other than the money coming out of the slot of an AEON ATM in front of me

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Well.... bad but not unexpected news regarding Cap One Cirrus ATM cards and AEON ATMs...

Today, I unearthed my Cap One straight ATM card (no VISA or MC) with the Cirrus symbol on the back and tried to use it at one of the newer style AEON ATMs sporting the blue CIRRUS logo in the group showing all the different cards accepted.

Put it in, entered my PIN, and got the screen response... sorry...cannot... contact your bank. Tried checking, tried savings, tried automatic...same non-response from all of them.

Then just to doublecheck, took that same Cap One ATM card nextdoor to a nearby Siam Commercial ATM, popped the card in, and was able on the first try to do a balance check on my Cap One account linked to that card. So clearly the card is valid and functioning and everything is kosher with my PIN. And the SCB ATM had no trouble recognizing it.

Still, someone with a MC-logo Cap One debit card ought to give one of the newer AEON ATMs a try as well, one of the variety that display the CIRRUS logo. At this point, I'm not feeling hopeful, but you never know until you try.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, I posted a week or so back about encountering an AEON ATM that displayed a message on its video screen advising of a 20K per withdrawal limit.

I went to the same AEON ATM today and got the same message, but this time I was ready with my mobile phone camera... See below.

[Pib]

Well.... bad but not unexpected news regarding Cap One Cirrus ATM cards and AEON ATMs...

Today, I unearthed my Cap One straight ATM card (no VISA or MC) with the Cirrus symbol on the back and tried to use it at one of the newer style AEON ATMs sporting the blue CIRRUS logo in the group showing all the different cards accepted.

Put it in, entered my PIN, and got the screen response... sorry...cannot... contact your bank. Tried checking, tried savings, tried automatic...same non-response from all of them.

Then just to doublecheck, took that same Cap One ATM card nextdoor to a nearby Siam Commercial ATM, popped the card in, and was able on the first try to do a balance check on my Cap One account linked to that card. So clearly the card is valid and functioning and everything is kosher with my PIN. And the SCB ATM had no trouble recognizing it.

Still, someone with a MC-logo Cap One debit card ought to give one of the newer AEON ATMs a try as well, one of the variety that display the CIRRUS logo. At this point, I'm not feeling hopeful, but you never know until you try.

I saw a Cirrus label on an older style AEON ATM today. But I expect it just may be a standard decal listing all the major networks...that is, a standard paint job type label. While walking by various ATMs (AEONs and Thai banks) over the last few days I wanted to see if the network labels were "individual" labels for each network or just part of "one" multiple logo label. They were all one multiple logo label....guess that explains why all the labels are always lined up perfectly...you pull that one label off and off comes all the network logos...sticking them on individually you would see a lot of slightly misaligned labels.

Anyway, like I said before, me thinks AEON ATM don't support Cirrus even though they may have the Cirrus label...a label which just might have been part of the standard, all the major networks label. And if a ATM/Debit card is coded only to use the Cirrus network then a person is out of luck in using an AEON ATM...will have to go use a Thai bank ATM and get charged a Bt150/Bt180 fee.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Pib

[Pib]

BTW, I posted a week or so back about encountering an AEON ATM that displayed a message on its video screen advising of a 20K per withdrawal limit.

I went to the same AEON ATM today and got the same message, but this time I was ready with my mobile phone camera... See below.

AEON ATM 20K Limit.jpg

Probably just that ATM. It's located in a high usage area of central Bangkok, right? Plenty of expats and tourists using it to avoid foreign card fees and probably a good amount of Thais also using it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In a mall location...central BKK....but I rarely see other farang customers there...

It's usually Thais lined up to pay their monthly payments, or take money out against their AEON accounts.

There are plenty of farangs around, though. More tourists than locals, at this particular locale.

But I'm still skeptical about AEON or Thai banks setting individual ATM machine withdrawal policies. I've never seen much indication that that's a practice here. Also, they've got A LOT of ATMs to manage, if they're dealing individually like that.

[Pib]

Maybe they can set a limit by sending the ATM a simple command since it's hooked up to a network. I'm guessing, but I expect when ATMs start getting low on cash, run out of cash, have a fault, etc., they transmit that info to an AEON central server somewhere and that probably triggers a technician or maybe a cash refill vehicle to go service the ATM earlier than scheduled visits. Of course ATMs are refilled/checked/updated on certain scheduled intervals by a human actually servicing the ATM, but I expect ATM can also be updated/settings modified to a certain degree remotely just like my True cable modem which True periodically remotely/automatically updates the firmware, my TrueVisions settop boxes which get updated remotely, or Google Play automatically updating the Apps on my Smartphone. I know those examples are examples of non-secure/non-critical updates, but I expect ATMs are using secure/encrypted communication links regardless of their modems and UPS connected to the machines being totally accessible by Tom, Dick or Harry....but Tom, Dick or Harry don't know the secret User IDs, PINs/Passwords, etc. I'm guessing.

Edit: I just googled a little and there are plenty of links talking about remotely monitoring and updating ATMs...that's a big selling point for those companies who make the ATMs, write ATM software, maintain ATMs and ATM networks, etc. With that capability I expect "individual" ATMs could easily, quickly, and remotely be set to limit the max withdrawal per transaction...and just as easy to remove the limitation.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Pib

[JimGant]

Anyway, like I said before, me thinks AEON ATM don't support Cirrus even though they may have the Cirrus label...a label which just might have been part of the standard, all the major networks label. And if a ATM/Debit card is coded only to use the Cirrus network then a person is out of luck in using an AEON ATM...will have to go use a Thai bank ATM and get charged a Bt150/Bt180 fee.

Pib, I think the problem is just with Capital One cards, as we've seen on this thread several reports of CapOne MC logoed debit/ATM cards not working in Aeon machines -- but working in other Thai bank machines. But, I've not seen any other reports of MC logoed debit/ATM cards NOT working in Aeon machines. And since probably half the farangs using debit/ATM cards have MC cards, certainly we would have seen reports of these cards not working in Aeon machines. And since the large majority of the MC debit/ATM cards ride the Cirrus network (as I doubt few have a Plus logo on the back), Aeon does work with the Cirrus network (except for CapOne cards, or certain CapOne cards).

Dunno why CapOne encoding can't handshake with the Aeon system. But, to me anyhow, that appears to be the problem. Other folks riding Cirrus from an Aeon machine are not having problems -- or certainly we would of heard about it.

[Pib]

It could be some CapOne cards are coded to "only" use the Cirrus network for cash withdrawals and other cards can use Cirrus and also other networks for cash withdrawals. Such a card gets slid into an AEON ATM, maybe it first wants to connect via Cirrus (maybe the preferred network) but the ATM says no can do since I don't support Cirrus....the card then says OK, can I connect via Maestro, Plus, or whatever multiple networks that card works with....Mr Aeon ATM says yes I do support that other network...I will connect you now...and all of this is happening in milliseconds.

I just find it hard to believe the CapOne card handshakes fine with Thai bank ATMs, POS machines, etc., but not with the AEON ATM since magnetic stripe encoding follows a standardized format...but if the standardized format on the stripe says I "only" connect to Cirrus networks for cash withdrawals and "if" AEON does not support Cirrus, then the AEON ATM is going to tell you to bug off.

Once again, I'm guessing.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Anyways, we're just speculating here... No real way to know for sure...

Except, it seems that Cap One ATM cards at least, and probably Cap One MC debit cards too, still aren't working in AEON ATMs...

Although, I'd sure like to see someone with the newer version Cap One 360 MC debit cards give one a try...just to see.

[JimGant]

It could be some CapOne cards are coded to "only" use the Cirrus network for cash withdrawals and other cards can use Cirrus and also other networks for cash withdrawals.

Pib, you may be on to something..........

Looking at a photo John took a few years back of an Aeon machine, there's a Maestro logo, but no Cirrus logo. Maestro is a companion network to Cirrus -- both belonging to MasterCard (but I can't explain the difference in function, if any).

Now a Wiki look at Cirrus says the following:

Maestro cards are, by default, linked to the Cirrus network, but very often, all three logotypes of the MasterCard family will be shown: MasterCard, Maestro and Cirrus.

Yeah -- but maybe not all Cirrus cards are, by default, linked to the [considerably less prevalent] Maestro network......(?). Like, CapOne cards. And if Aeon is still using the Maestro network, those Cirrus cards not linked won't work.

Why not cross link Cirrus to Maestro? Pay less fees to MasterCard. Since Cirrus is the big daddy, CapOne doesn't feel they're losing much with a limited number of Maestro-only machines. (Gotta pay for eating network FCFs somehow....)

Why has Aeon replaced the Maestro logo with the Cirrus logo (per the recent photo of an Aeon machine)? Maybe they believe -- incorrectly -- that the cross linking goes both ways by default in all situations. Also, the Cirrus logo is much more widely recognized than the Maestro logo..........

But, yeah, just speculating.

Oh, I can't find anything on this forum on whether or not MC/Cirrus cards, other than CapOne, have proven to work (or not work) in an Aeon machine. What's your take?

Edited July 13, 2013 by JimGant

[4evermaat]

Well.... bad but not unexpected news regarding Cap One Cirrus ATM cards and AEON ATMs...

Today, I unearthed my Cap One straight ATM card (no VISA or MC) with the Cirrus symbol on the back and tried to use it at one of the newer style AEON ATMs sporting the blue CIRRUS logo in the group showing all the different cards accepted.

Put it in, entered my PIN, and got the screen response... sorry...cannot... contact your bank. Tried checking, tried savings, tried automatic...same non-response from all of them.

Then just to doublecheck, took that same Cap One ATM card nextdoor to a nearby Siam Commercial ATM, popped the card in, and was able on the first try to do a balance check on my Cap One account linked to that card. So clearly the card is valid and functioning and everything is kosher with my PIN. And the SCB ATM had no trouble recognizing it.

Still, someone with a MC-logo Cap One debit card ought to give one of the newer AEON ATMs a try as well, one of the variety that display the CIRRUS logo. At this point, I'm not feeling hopeful, but you never know until you try.

At the AEON ATM, did you attempt to make an actual withdraw, or only a balance check? Often times with thai banks or any non-home issued bank atm outside the home country, balance checks at the ATM are denied. But when a withdraw is made, sometimes they will print the remaining balance there. I was actually surprised to see that SCB gave you a proper balance check with no errors.

Bank of America Military debit card is a Visa on the front, and on the back: Pulse, Plus, Interlink, Armed Forces Financial Network, and BoA. Maybe I'll make another attempt to check the balance the next time I remember. I am using the new style AEON atms that match one of the photos you have in a previous post. It was installed about 2-3 months ago, and before that they had put larger new style atms in when they renovated the AEON shop almost a year ago..

Edited July 13, 2013 by 4evermaat

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

At the AEON ATM, did you attempt to make an actual withdraw, or only a balance check? Often times with thai banks or any non-home issued bank atm outside the home country, balance checks at the ATM are denied. But when a withdraw is made, sometimes they will print the remaining balance there. I was actually surprised to see that SCB gave you a proper balance check with no errors.

Yes...using the Cap One ATM card, I tried to make a withdrawal in several different ways...and didn't get anywhere each time. I could enter withdrawal, and then choose the account type and then enter in an amount. But as soon as I did that last step, the transaction failed and I got the contact your back notice. And yes, there was plenty of funds in the account to support the 1K withdrawal I was attempting.

[Thighlander]

I became a Capital One 360 account holder after the ING merger. It is a MC debit card, with an Allpoint logo on the back. I only use Aeon. Thursday morning, I got 30.95 per US Dollar. I'm quite happy with Sharebuilder, as well.

[Pib]

I became a Capital One 360 account holder after the ING merger. It is a MC debit card, with an Allpoint logo on the back. I only use Aeon. Thursday morning, I got 30.95 per US Dollar. I'm quite happy with Sharebuilder, as well.

Finally...we got some feedback from another CapOne user. Thanks.

From looking at the exchange rate for Thursday morning, that would have still been the U.S. 10 Jul/Wed exchange rate of 31.0161. I remember JimGant I think or maybe it was TallGuyJohninBKK quoted some info from a some bank's or some other MasterCard related website that a 0.2% to 1% currency conversion fee could be applied. I think it might also be mentioned on the CapOne web site somewhere.

Reduce the 31.0161 by 0.2% and you get 30.95. So, it looks like CapOne now does allow a small MasterCard foreign transaction fee to be passed along to the customer but does not add to it.