Thanks. I'll watch it soon, when I have the time to pay close attention.

I realize this is the "Mail" but it is an interesting article for us outsiders.

_______________________________________________________

Major: This is our chance to win back power from the EU

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

Last updated at 12:14 AM on 10th October 2011

Sir John Major – who as prime minister signed up to the Maastricht Treaty – has joined calls for a renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with Brussels.

His intervention piles further pressure on David Cameron to use the crisis in the eurozone to demand powers back from the European Union.

The former premier caused surprise in Tory circles by saying yesterday that now is the time to insist on ‘looser’ ties with the EU.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047052/John-Major-We-use-eurozone-debt-crisis-grab-powers-Brussels.html#ixzz1aN8A3V7K

Full marks to John Major (good shot, sir!)... and, for once, to the Daily Mail. Note that he also says Greece must default... but not before the banks have been strengthened enough to stand the shock.

The first bank to be in trouble, Dexia, is being saved by having parts quietly hived off, thereby weakening the international solidity of the EZ. (The Belgian retail section is being bought back by the Belgian Government).

...thereby weakening the international solidity of the EZ

? ?

The history of currencies is interesting, but might lead us a little bit far off the topic of the Eurozone's debt problems.

What backs up the Euro, croissants, wine, German sausage and cheese?

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

Interesting way to look at it

...thereby weakening the international solidity of the EZ

? ?

Quite right, Naam; I should have said 'solidarity'. The major EZ countries are linked by interconnections between the big banks, and any weakening of these ties weakens the whole.

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

Interesting way to look at it

I'm glad that my financial position is secure enough that people will give me a mortgage as well.

I would be worried if they didn't see me as a good credit risk.

SC

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

Interesting way to look at it

what we need is a "tongue-in-cheek" smiley!

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

Interesting way to look at it

I'm glad that my financial position is secure enough that people will give me a mortgage as well.

I would be worried if they didn't see me as a good credit risk.

SC

somebody in a financial position "secure enough" does not need a mortgage

...thereby weakening the international solidity of the EZ

? ?

Quite right, Naam; I should have said 'solidarity'. The major EZ countries are linked by interconnections between the big banks, and any weakening of these ties weakens the whole.

i had a feeling that you meant solidarity but did not take it into consideration because in my [not so] humble view the reference to "weakening" doesn't make sense. fact is that the fast action to solve the Dexia problem is appreciated by all EU parties. that a belge-franco bank is taken care of by the two most involved states is normal procedure (assuming these states have the cash).

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

Interesting way to look at it

I'm glad that my financial position is secure enough that people will give me a mortgage as well.

I would be worried if they didn't see me as a good credit risk.

SC

somebody in a financial position "secure enough" does not need a mortgage

Speak for yourself. I have always been happy to have a roof before I have savings.

People in a weak financial position have to live on whatever they have saved away in the larder while they bide away their time.

SC

The history of currencies is interesting, but might lead us a little bit far off the topic of the Eurozone's debt problems.

What backs up the Euro, croissants, wine, German sausage and cheese?

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

That might look bad on a per capita basis but if you go by kilogram of citizens, our debt is much lower.

Speak for yourself. I have always been happy to have a roof before I have savings.

People in a weak financial position have to live on whatever they have saved away in the larder while they bide away their time.

SC

sorry for my poor english :jap: i didn't say anything against owning a roof. and speaking for myself i say "a financially secure person uses his cash instead of a mortgage to pay for the roof over his head."

The history of currencies is interesting, but might lead us a little bit far off the topic of the Eurozone's debt problems.

What backs up the Euro, croissants, wine, German sausage and cheese?

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

That might look bad on a per capita basis but if you go by kilogram of citizens, our debt is much lower.

"debt per capita" or the often flogged dead horse "debt/gdb" used by snake oil sellers are totally irrelevant. the only fact that counts is the ratio "revenue/debt" or even more precise "revenue/debt service".

interesting is indeed "dead per kg citizen"

Following article from the Telegraph today:

_______________________________________________________

German push for Greek default risks EMU-wide 'snowball'

Germany is pushing behind the scenes for a "hard" default in Greece with losses of up to 60pc for banks and pension funds, risking a chain-reaction across southern Europe unless credible defences are established first.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard9:13PM BST 10 Oct 2011212

Officials in Berlin told The Telegraph it is "more likely than not" that investors will suffer fresh losses on holdings of Greek debt, beyond the 21pc haircut agreed in July.

The exact level will depend on findings by the EU-IMF "Troika" in Athens.

"A lot has happened since July. Greece has fallen back on its commitments, so we have to assume that the 21pc cut is no longer enough," said one source.

Read more here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8819195/German-push-for-Greek-default-risks-EMU-wide-snowball.html

German push for Greek default risks EMU-wide 'snowball'

snowball is correct but "EMU-wide" should be replaced by "global".

The history of currencies is interesting, but might lead us a little bit far off the topic of the Eurozone's debt problems.

What backs up the Euro, croissants, wine, German sausage and cheese?

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

That might look bad on a per capita basis but if you go by kilogram of citizens, our debt is much lower.

"debt per capita" or the often flogged dead horse "debt/gdb" used by snake oil sellers are totally irrelevant. the only fact that counts is the ratio "revenue/debt" or even more precise "revenue/debt service".

Then why post the total national debt followed by number of inhabitants?

...

€UR is "backed" by 9.3 trn total national debt (331mm inhabitants),

USD is "backed" by 14.8 trn total national debt of he Greatest Nation on Earth™ (312mm inhabitants).

That might look bad on a per capita basis but if you go by kilogram of citizens, our debt is much lower.

"debt per capita" or the often flogged dead horse "debt/gdb" used by snake oil sellers are totally irrelevant. the only fact that counts is the ratio "revenue/debt" or even more precise "revenue/debt service".

Then why post the total national debt followed by number of inhabitants?

I normally use the net revenue / interest ratio, though that depends on tax treatment. I believe national governments do not generally pay tax.

And, as I understand, so do lending agencies; when I applied for a mortgage, the bank never asked about how many people were in the family, they asked about salaries and disposable income.

He might have been boasting about how much debt the Europeans or Americans could support.

SC

Then why post the total national debt followed by number of inhabitants?

I normally use the net revenue / interest ratio, though that depends on tax treatment. I believe national governments do not generally pay tax.

And, as I understand, so do lending agencies; when I applied for a mortgage, the bank never asked about how many people were in the family, they asked about salaries and disposable income.

He might have been boasting about how much debt the Europeans or Americans could support.

SC

koheesti....

Naam used that funny example because it was a literal translation of what backs the fiat currencies.

At the time of his answer that was what the question was.

ie: "What backs the Euro"

Fiat currencies are created first as debt.

So it is to be paid for with future payments by the citizens of each currency.

Basically TPTB are backing their fiat currency with a promise that their inhabitants will pay it's creation through future taxation.

Since nothing more than this promise backs any fiat currency.

Unlike the old gold/silver standards where Money was backed by a commodity.

With a system like that Money was not created out of thin air/promises of future income/taxation. It was created only in equal parts to the amount of gold/silver which was first put into the treasury to back each dollar that was printed.

Of course TPTB do not like that type of system which forced them to live within their means....ie: work first to obtain backing to deposit into the treasury before they then get the pay issued/printed.

SC.....

I doubt he was boasting about what x number can pay because non can say.

It would of course again be a faith based system since there is no guarantee of jobs etc/ability to repay.

As for revenue/interest ratio.... Yes it is interesting that even now the US through their income via taxation

cannot even pay the interest on the debt so none of the debt gets touched/paid down. But it is not the best overall indicator.

Unless of course you are interested in a interest only loan ( the worst possible kind of loan )

Which is why the method Naam mentioned of revenue/debt service is the truth

Same with any loan to anyone.

By those standards it is easy to see both the USD & the Euro is beyond the beyond.

Drunken sailors that should have been cut off long ago.

As for revenue/interest ratio.... Yes it is interesting that even now the US through their income via taxation

cannot even pay the interest on the debt so none of the debt gets touched/paid down. But it is not the best overall indicator.

Unless of course you are interested in a interest only loan ( the worst possible kind of loan )

Which is why the method Naam mentioned of revenue/debt service is the truth. Same with any loan to anyone.

By those standards it is easy to see both the USD & the Euro is beyond the beyond. Drunken sailors that should have been cut off long ago.

it is useless to discuss the brush stroke and the colours of an old master's painting or the beauty of a sunset with a blind person Flying. i have also given up discussing Einstein's relativity theory with my gardener but we still conduct interesting conversations on how to spread fertiliser, trim trees and sharpening lawnmower blades.

what can one discuss with somebody who comments simple facts with "He might have been boasting about how much debt the Europeans or Americans could support." or forgets that disposable income is highly dependent on how many people an income has to support?

Then why post the total national debt followed by number of inhabitants?

to show that both economic blocs are rather similar and will have a future similar taxpayer structure as well as to answer the question "What backs up the Euro, croissants, wine, German sausage and cheese?"

but that again is obviously too sophisticated for some "outside the box" participants. in future i will limit myself to simple statements such as "two plus two equals four" and "water usually freezes at temperatures below freezing point" but expect nevertheless comments "Naam is boasting with his maths capabilities and knowledge of physics!"

Fiat currencies are created first as debt.

So it is to be paid for with future payments by the citizens of each currency.

Basically TPTB are backing their fiat currency with a promise that their inhabitants will pay it's creation through future taxation.

Since nothing more than this promise backs any fiat currency.

Unlike the old gold/silver standards where Money was backed by a commodity.

With a system like that Money was not created out of thin air/promises of future income/taxation. It was created only in equal parts to the amount of gold/silver which was first put into the treasury to back each dollar that was printed.

Of course TPTB do not like that type of system which forced them to live within their means....ie: work first to obtain backing to deposit into the treasury before they then get the pay issued/printed.

SC.....

I doubt he was boasting about what x number can pay because non can say.

It would of course again be a faith based system since there is no guarantee of jobs etc/ability to repay.

As for revenue/interest ratio.... Yes it is interesting that even now the US through their income via taxation

cannot even pay the interest on the debt so none of the debt gets touched/paid down. But it is not the best overall indicator.

Unless of course you are interested in a interest only loan ( the worst possible kind of loan )

Which is why the method Naam mentioned of revenue/debt service is the truth

Same with any loan to anyone.

By those standards it is easy to see both the USD & the Euro is beyond the beyond.

Drunken sailors that should have been cut off long ago.

And this is what I've been bitching about. The Powers That Be are irresponsible - in every political party in every major country they are living beyond their means, through the issuance of unsupported currency notes.

It is at a stage now where it is virtually impossible for any major country to ever cover it's debts and all countries seem to me to be borrowing / lending without offering / accepting credible guarantees for the debt.

If you were a little back-street money-lender you would have far more sense than this.

Fiat currencies are created first as debt.

So it is to be paid for with future payments by the citizens of each currency.

Basically TPTB are backing their fiat currency with a promise that their inhabitants will pay it's creation through future taxation.

Since nothing more than this promise backs any fiat currency.

Unlike the old gold/silver standards where Money was backed by a commodity.

With a system like that Money was not created out of thin air/promises of future income/taxation. It was created only in equal parts to the amount of gold/silver which was first put into the treasury to back each dollar that was printed.

Of course TPTB do not like that type of system which forced them to live within their means....ie: work first to obtain backing to deposit into the treasury before they then get the pay issued/printed.

SC.....

I doubt he was boasting about what x number can pay because non can say.

It would of course again be a faith based system since there is no guarantee of jobs etc/ability to repay.

As for revenue/interest ratio.... Yes it is interesting that even now the US through their income via taxation

cannot even pay the interest on the debt so none of the debt gets touched/paid down. But it is not the best overall indicator.

Unless of course you are interested in a interest only loan ( the worst possible kind of loan )

Which is why the method Naam mentioned of revenue/debt service is the truth

Same with any loan to anyone.

By those standards it is easy to see both the USD & the Euro is beyond the beyond.

Drunken sailors that should have been cut off long ago.

And this is what I've been bitching about. The Powers That Be are irresponsible - in every political party in every major country they are living beyond their means, through the issuance of unsupported currency notes.

It is at a stage now where it is virtually impossible for any major country to ever cover it's debts and all countries seem to me to be borrowing / lending without offering / accepting credible guarantees for the debt.

If you were a little back-street money-lender you would have far more sense than this.

I'm always surprised that people elect politicians instead of anonymous strangers off the internet to run their countries. Either the electorate are all half-wits, like you and I, or perhaps running a country is more complicated than running a back-street money-lenders, and more complicated than people like you and I believe.

Like you, I always assume that anything I don't understand is trivially simple, but when I take the effort to learn about it, I generally find that my initial preconception was wrong.

Anyway, even if you complain, no-one listens, so you might as well not bother. Look at these shoes, I've only had them a couple of months...

SC

EDIT: For my other pair of shoes, I bought a recognised British brand, and I am confident they will last a couple of years, just as their predecessors did - even though they were manufactured in Vietnam. It is the culture of the company, not the man operating the machine, that matters. Perhaps if we had more Poles in the UK willing to work for a living at competitive wages, the shoes might have been manufactured in Nottingham...

And this is what I've been bitching about. The Powers That Be are irresponsible - in every political party in every major country they are living beyond their means, through the issuance of unsupported currency notes.

It is at a stage now where it is virtually impossible for any major country to ever cover it's debts and all countries seem to me to be borrowing / lending without offering / accepting credible guarantees for the debt.

If you were a little back-street money-lender you would have far more sense than this.

HB....Agreed & This is why I so often say in the financial forum that the system is beautifully broken.

I tend to think the cause of their irresponsible behavior is to a large extent this broken system.

I mean they are after all politicians. Basically they lie & or make promises they know well enough they cannot fulfill even as they make them.

Yet they want/need to be popular as it is their career they protect.

So while they talk to the voters at campaign time & promise the world & sympathize with the voters plight.....

when it comes time to act they are as deer in headlights. Stunned & frozen

The reason for this is one of two things....

1...they are basically financially/economically stupid. I am not kidding!

When the crash started in 07/08 there were some who did not realize the dollar was backed by nothing. Some actually

thought it was still backed by the so called gold in Fort Knox.

While they have a good campaign manager & are able to kiss babies & make feel good speeches that are written for them

they actually possess little to no working knowledge of currency/monetary policy/How money is created/ foreign polices etc.

But they have a certain charisma that gets them elected.

This also speaks to the basic ignorance of the voters themselves.

2...they do have an understanding but know that what is truly needed to fix the problem will not be popular with some segments of their voter base. So they do nothing. They do not try to persuade or explain where we are or how we got here. They do not point out the gross overspending in the Military Industrial Complex nor do they point out the billions given to puppet regimes or lobbyist with their various aid to countries that actually hold some of our debt! Yet the aid does not count towards canceling that debt!! Nice gig eh?

So they remain silent instead only thinking of their next election/job extension.

The system is beautifully broken. There is a very select few that are strong enough & have maintained that we would end up right where we are today if the madness was not stopped years ago. Yet they are for the most part ignored or called crazy.

The further we go down this road the worse the end will be.

IMO...Make no mistake we are beyond the beyond even now. There will be a big reckoning soon enough when the chickens come home to roost.

it is no longer enough to make hollow promises & then blame the guy who came before you.

The effects are real this time & being felt by all.

All great empires come to an end...always

This time more than one may fall or be massively downgraded at the same time.

The system is broken because of government SPENDING, not because of government REVENUE.

And this is what I've been bitching about. The Powers That Be are irresponsible - in every political party in every major country they are living beyond their means, through the issuance of unsupported currency notes.

It is at a stage now where it is virtually impossible for any major country to ever cover it's debts and all countries seem to me to be borrowing / lending without offering / accepting credible guarantees for the debt.

If you were a little back-street money-lender you would have far more sense than this.

HB....Agreed & This is why I so often say in the financial forum that the system is beautifully broken.

I tend to think the cause of their irresponsible behavior is to a large extent this broken system.

I mean they are after all politicians. Basically they lie & or make promises they know well enough they cannot fulfill even as they make them.

Yet they want/need to be popular as it is their career they protect.

So while they talk to the voters at campaign time & promise the world & sympathize with the voters plight.....

when it comes time to act they are as deer in headlights. Stunned & frozen

The reason for this is one of two things....

1...they are basically financially/economically stupid. I am not kidding!

When the crash started in 07/08 there were some who did not realize the dollar was backed by nothing. Some actually

thought it was still backed by the so called gold in Fort Knox.

While they have a good campaign manager & are able to kiss babies & make feel good speeches that are written for them

they actually possess little to no working knowledge of currency/monetary policy/How money is created/ foreign polices etc.

But they have a certain charisma that gets them elected.

This also speaks to the basic ignorance of the voters themselves.

2...they do have an understanding but know that what is truly needed to fix the problem will not be popular with some segments of their voter base. So they do nothing. They do not try to persuade or explain where we are or how we got here. They do not point out the gross overspending in the Military Industrial Complex nor do they point out the billions given to puppet regimes or lobbyist with their various aid to countries that actually hold some of our debt! Yet the aid does not count towards canceling that debt!! Nice gig eh?

So they remain silent instead only thinking of their next election/job extension.

The system is beautifully broken. There is a very select few that are strong enough & have maintained that we would end up right where we are today if the madness was not stopped years ago. Yet they are for the most part ignored or called crazy.

The further we go down this road the worse the end will be.

IMO...Make no mistake we are beyond the beyond even now. There will be a big reckoning soon enough when the chickens come home to roost.

it is no longer enough to make hollow promises & then blame the guy who came before you.

The effects are real this time & being felt by all.

All great empires come to an end...always

This time more than one may fall or be massively downgraded at the same time.

Absolutely. As I said somewhere in the beginning of this thread, the world leaders should not pay expensive experts, when the real experts are right here on ThaiVisa.com I really think that the future of the USD and the EUR should be given into the hands of ThaiVisa.com, and all problems will be solved. As you correctly say, anything else is stupid.

The system is broken because of government SPENDING, not because of government REVENUE.

the system would be OK if spending had been in line with revenue.

The system is broken because of government SPENDING, not because of government REVENUE.

Somewhat true

The spending though is always approved & even when it is not the cartel

known as the FED Reserve step in & dictate monetary policy.

A job which is not theirs.

Also when we look at the biggest spending it is the areas that the various lobbyist hold tightly.

The same lobbyist that fund the winning politicians

As for revenue....All income tax equals something like 40-45% of the governments revenues

It could be zeroed if only the government were shrunk to late 1970's size.

That is actually do-able ....The government is a bloated behemoth that does not need to be the size it has

become.

Instead our government borrows over 2 BILLION a day from the likes of China & Japan...Although those taps are running dry. Japan due to their own problems & China because they are starting to see.

So instead we have taken to printing IOU's to buy our own IOU's again through the FED.

How long does anyone think that will hold up?

The system is broken because of government SPENDING, not because of government REVENUE.

the system would be OK if spending had been in line with revenue.

Agreed. Michelle Bachman says she would close the Department of Education and the Department of Energy on her first day in office, if elected. That would be a nice start.

NO!!! I am not a Bachman fan but I do think her idea has merit.