Flood-Hit Thailand Declines Offer Of Help: US Navy

[ElVez]

Just to play devils advocate here, the quote in the OP seems a bit odd:

"There were two channels (in the Thai government)," the defense official told AFP

It is not clear if the 'government' bit was said at all as I have not seen anyone speak in brackets before.

There are posts here showing exsamples of the PM asking for help and the US military offering it before so could the branch ofd 'government' that is refusing help be the Thai military as the US military will obviously have high level contact with them directly due to the annual Cobra Gold exercises. There would also be the face issue as they would not want to see a foreign military doing what they are not capable of and, to be really cynical, would they really want a foreign military active on the streets of Bangkok if there wanted mount a coup to take control at some point.

Also it would be very difficult to overule the Thai military if they put a block on this without a major diplomatic incident (or indeed point the finger of blame!).

The Thai Military has historically close relations wiht the US Military so I'm pretty sure the veto didn't come from there, That leaves only the government that has lied and been paranoid that someone would find out how incompetent they are to be the ones to nix the help. If I am ever drowning, I don't care it it's Ahmadinajad who pulls me out of the water; I just want to be saved.

I wouldn't be surprised if that other voice that declined the help came form the Thai military. Such Ego and face saving issues as some assume as the reason i would think that some army generals have them and not Yingluck.

[newermonkey]

To refuse help from the US is bordering on insanity. What is better, to lose 'face' or to lose lives?

The way things are going the Government will end up begging for International help. The flood is the tip of the iceberg,as the coming diseases are going to be the biggest problem.

Why do you think like this?

The USA is trying to make MONEY out of other peoples suffering - all countries that accept "The offer" will be handed a HUGE OVER INFLATED BILL later on, of course this can be negotiated later on BUT SELLING your PEOPLES SOLES to the DEVIL is not the right way to go.

Face up to the real world Rick, as the Thai politicians obviously do, they are not stupid as you are inferring.

[Buchholz]

Recent tweet:

RT @KristieKenney: For those asking, US Marine humanitarian team working on Thai flood relief. USS Mustain (GW carrier group) in port.

seems we have been misinformed.

Isn't that the group of 10 marines that were allowed to help?

No idea, but it contradicts the OP if some US forces are helping.

No contradiction at all with the OP's "several"...

The US Navy has withdrawn several ships sent to help with relief efforts in flood-hit Thailand

Unfortunately for Thailand, the biggest, USS George Washington, was part of that "several"

[Mitker]

Well, the final brain cell as exploded. Bet no one noticed as she is still smiling.

[goldcountry]

The US and Thai governments have a very long history of exchanging favors, tilted in the US' direction in some ways and in Thailand's direction in others. Like most countries, they trade favors and grant concessions and so on based on strategic interest. If you've ever flown into a regional airport in Thailand you've flown into something built by the US. These airports were originally USAF bases. I think most people know this. What's my point? The US used Thailand - with Thailand's consent - to run our disastrous war in SE Asia and Thailand used the US to build infrastructure and pry away money from the presence of the US forces. This special relationship extends to business concerns, diplomatic concerns and so on and, as has been noted, Cobra Gold is held here between the US and strategic regional partners. US passports are manufactured here. Heaps of US durable goods are manufactured here. When we launched our misguided occupation in the sandbox, Thailand sent troops and we sent aid and concessions. Similarly, Thailand housed a black prison for our pretty reprehensible extraordinary rendition program. We have a complex relationship with one another wherein each party gets something at one point or another with the US generally being on the asking end more often, but with a relatively warm reception in most cases behind closed doors. This is not a surprise to anyone with a brain.

I say all this to underscore the idiocy of those assuming this single act of sending humanitarian aid is some kind of trump card. It is no doubt a genuine desire to send help to a friendly nation with whom the US has a long relationship. It's unfathomable that it will come with some big asterisk, because that is not how the relationship between the US and Thailand works. It's a relationship built on mutual reacharounds, not on extortion via aid. In other words, both countries are in it for the long con, not the short con, so assuming that this carrier group would be tied to some backscratching deal is moronic.

Thanks emilb. A reasoned and well thought out post but will be totally lost on all those "hate everything American" droids.

+1

I agree with pretty much everything except as to how you characterize the US war in Vietnam. Thailand was very much a beneficiary of that war and don't think for a second communism would not have overrun Thailand in the exact same way it did ever other neighboring country in this area at that time. The Thais knew this and were more than happy to accommodate the Americans in that regard. Thailand has benefited from its relationship probably more than America has due to the fact that in addition to the protection Thailand received during the Vietnam war, they also received a sweetheart trade deal after the war ended that made them the richest country in this area. America to this day is Thailand's #1 trade partner by a mile. Thailand also receives millions of dollars in foreign aid from America every year and receives state-of-the-art US military hardware and training for their armed forces. While there are most certainly mutual favors from each country, I'm quite sure America would survive just fine without Thailand. I'm not sure the reverse would be true.

[Markaew]

...today the US help you, tomorrow they'll be ready to reclaim the favor and put it in your a**...

and don't tell me it never happened before

You sound like one of the government officials that made this wonderful decision to turn away assistance. Must be thai logic. As usual you are wrong.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Just to play devils advocate here, the quote in the OP seems a bit odd:

"There were two channels (in the Thai government)," the defense official told AFP

It is not clear if the 'government' bit was said at all as I have not seen anyone speak in brackets before.

There are posts here showing exsamples of the PM asking for help and the US military offering it before so could the branch ofd 'government' that is refusing help be the Thai military as the US military will obviously have high level contact with them directly due to the annual Cobra Gold exercises. There would also be the face issue as they would not want to see a foreign military doing what they are not capable of and, to be really cynical, would they really want a foreign military active on the streets of Bangkok if there wanted mount a coup to take control at some point.

Also it would be very difficult to overule the Thai military if they put a block on this without a major diplomatic incident (or indeed point the finger of blame!).

The Thai Military has historically close relations wiht the US Military so I'm pretty sure the veto didn't come from there, That leaves only the government that has lied and been paranoid that someone would find out how incompetent they are to be the ones to nix the help. If I am ever drowning, I don't care it it's Ahmadinajad who pulls me out of the water; I just want to be saved.

I wouldn't be surprised if that other voice that declined the help came form the Thai military. Such Ego and face saving issues as some assume as the reason i would think that some army generals have them and not Yingluck.

If the Thai military had plans of their own they certainly would not want the US military around to complicate matters.

[gohmer]

...today the US help you, tomorrow they'll be ready to reclaim the favor and put it in your a**...

and don't tell me it never happened before

Hmmm, could you possibly be referring to IRAQ

Unless you thoroughly know about the history of the middle east and the cause and effect of things, you might want to not embark on the Iraq conversation. The cliche's and sound bites have so blinded what is the bigger picture there that I'm sure you are not prepared to debate it. It also has no relationship to Thailand.

[Buchholz]

Recent tweet:

RT @KristieKenney: For those asking, US Marine humanitarian team working on Thai flood relief. USS Mustain (GW carrier group) in port.

seems we have been misinformed.

There is no USS Mustain in the U.S. Navy inventory.

There is a USS Mustin.

Apparently it has stayed in Thailand while the USS George Washington and its other escort ships have left Thailand and are bound for Japan.

So now you expect me to be an expert on the US Navy fleet? I am just passing on updated news when it is relevant.

I humbly thank you for the correction an I hope you feel better now.

No expectation for you to be an expert, but hopefully, there is an expectation of accuracy in other comments beyond the Tweet, which was the point of my reply.

.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Buchholz

[Markaew]

To refuse help from the US is bordering on insanity. What is better, to lose 'face' or to lose lives?

The way things are going the Government will end up begging for International help. The flood is the tip of the iceberg,as the coming diseases are going to be the biggest problem.

Why do you think like this?

The USA is trying to make MONEY out of other peoples suffering - all countries that accept "The offer" will be handed a HUGE OVER INFLATED BILL later on, of course this can be negotiated later on BUT SELLING your PEOPLES SOLES to the DEVIL is not the right way to go.

Face up to the real world Rick, as the Thai politicians obviously do, they are not stupid as you are inferring.

Yes, and thais are experts at profiting from other people's suffering.

[rametindallas]

We should send over some FEMA guys to help out....

You are joking, aren't you? Read this.

"After being roundly criticized in a slew of media, congressional and government reports, the Federal Emergency Management Agency's internal watchdog Friday returned its own verdict on the handling of Hurricane Katrina: The criticism against FEMA is largely deserved.

In a hefty 218-page report, the Department of Homeland Security's inspector general writes that the federal government and FEMA received "widespread criticism for a slow and ineffective response to Hurricane Katrina."

"Much of the criticism is warranted," Inspector General Richard L. Skinner writes.

The report gives an account of FEMA's recent history and response to Katrina, covering ground that has been well-plowed in recent months, although adding some details.

It describes manpower problems, a decline in planning for natural disasters as attention focused on possible terrorist scenarios, and confusion over the roles and responsibilities of officials in responding to disasters."

It would seem that the Americans are no better than the Thais in circumstances like this.

Another straw man you have nocked down, aren't you proud. FEMA is not the US Navy. Don't let your hatred of all things US deprive the suffering people of Thailand much needed aid.

[bangkokrick]

To refuse help from the US is bordering on insanity. What is better, to lose 'face' or to lose lives?

The way things are going the Government will end up begging for International help. The flood is the tip of the iceberg,as the coming diseases are going to be the biggest problem.

Why do you think like this?

The USA is trying to make MONEY out of other peoples suffering - all countries that accept "The offer" will be handed a HUGE OVER INFLATED BILL later on, of course this can be negotiated later on BUT SELLING your PEOPLES SOLES to the DEVIL is not the right way to go.

Face up to the real world Rick, as the Thai politicians obviously do, they are not stupid as you are inferring.

I think like this because there are many people in Thailand that need urgent help. There are food and water shortages and I am sure that the US could help with this problem. Their helicopters would also come in very handy.With reference to payback I think that you are being paranoid.

[tragickingdom]

The story is a little bit different. This is of course the spin that the politicized Nation gives on it. But other sources clearly state that the Thai army leadership was not really happy with it. Bloomberg News is even quoting that the Navy leadership told them that the flood was not as bad as it seemed. But than again the Thai army is never working for but mostly working against the people. So no news really here.

[bangkokrick]

Recent tweet:

RT @KristieKenney: For those asking, US Marine humanitarian team working on Thai flood relief. USS Mustain (GW carrier group) in port.

seems we have been misinformed.

There is no USS Mustain in the U.S. Navy inventory.

There is a USS Mustin.

Apparently it has stayed in Thailand while the USS George Washington and its other escort ships have left Thailand and are bound for Japan.

So now you expect me to be an expert on the US Navy fleet? I am just passing on updated news when it is relevant.

I humbly thank you for the correction an I hope you feel better now.

No expectation for you to be an expert, but hopefully, there is an expectation of accuracy in other comments beyond the Tweet, which was the point of my reply.

.

The inference of the post was that US help has been rejected, but it seems that it has not in this case. It does not really matter which ship is involved does it?

[Arkady]

If this is true, it is criminal.

Puts these "face" junkies in the same box as Burma's military dictators who claimed their flood victims didn't need international help because they were very resourceful and could eat frogs.

Edited October 25, 2011 by Arkady

[rametindallas]

The Thai government is using the same common sense that it used to deal with the tsunami. Back then the Thais told the Americans and other glory seeking so-called donors to stick their promises where the sun don't shine. Thailand recuperated fairly rapidly. Those counting on Western promises of aid are still suffering. For a prime example of where American aid gets you take a look at Haiti. Thailand can look after itself and the further it keeps itself from American aid the better.

100% lie

[rascalman]

Is this what the new PM is about? Arguing with the yellow shirt Mayor instead of helping? I am American and proud to say we came and offered help. We did deliver some goods already last week or so. I was hoping the new PM would be good but now I question what is going on!

Before this wreck is done, Thailand will be asking for and getting help from a dozen or more nations and the UN.

Disease will likely break out due to people being forced into unhealthy living conditions.

I hope I am wrong but I see bad things ahead.

[ElVez]

There were news stories last week, and I will have to summarize from memory, that said the U.S. had about 20 helicopters available at Don Muang. The PM stated they would fall under the supervision of the Thai Air Force Commander.

The U.S. said they would provide up to 85 more if needed and requested in the coming weeks. Not only could they be used for rescue and supply drops, but for heavy lifting to place flood barriers, sand bags, etc.

The Air Force Commander stated that everyone that need rescue or evacuation had already been taken care of. He stated many people were staying in place, and that they could be supplied with trucks and boats, helicopters are not necessary. He also stated that it was too dangerous to fly so many helicopters at the same time. Unbelievable!

I was surprised there was not much reaction to this on T.V. at the time. Now it is a major topic. Soon after there were stories of not enough boats with motors to reach the stranded population.

Now we know who said NO.

Clueless Yingluck thought some helicopters might be a nice helping hand, but of course some military dude knew it better. Some people have to adjust their rants now.

Edited October 25, 2011 by thaiphoon
Line spacing adjusted

[gl555]

The story is a little bit different. This is of course the spin that the politicized Nation gives on it. But other sources clearly state that the Thai army leadership was not really happy with it. Bloomberg News is even quoting that the Navy leadership told them that the flood was not as bad as it seemed. But than again the Thai army is never working for but mostly working against the people. So no news really here.

What 'other sources' pray tell?

[wintermute]

It makes sense for the Thai military to refuse aid because it would be a major loss of face for outside military help to come and do a far better job with superior logistics/equipment involved.

Plus they are probably planning on instituting a coup sometime down the road and foreign military presence would complicate things.

[Buchholz]

The USA is trying to make MONEY out of other peoples suffering - all countries that accept "The offer" will be handed a HUGE OVER INFLATED BILL later on, of course this can be negotiated later on BUT SELLING your PEOPLES SOLES to the DEVIL is not the right way to go.

Face up to the real world Rick, as the Thai politicians obviously do, they are not stupid as you are inferring.

Again with your "bill" and "invoice" nonsense (this time in shouting caps).

The U.S. Navy humanitarian assistance offered to Thailand earlier this month has no bill or invoice.

[hansnl]

... it's all pretty disturbing ... can anyone comment on protocols that would warrant a UN intervention to prevent human disaster, without an invitation from the Thai government? ... at what point do Thais need to be protected from the Thais?

... these people seem just too incompetent to care for themselves ... freakishly incompetent

Thais from the Thais?????

[thaiorchidsource]

This offer of help is to a long time ally, and has nothing to do with regional presence during a war conflict. American donesn't need to ask for something from Thailand in return.

...today the US help you, tomorrow they'll be ready to reclaim the favor and put it in your a**...

and don't tell me it never happened before

Hmmm, could you possibly be referring to IRAQ

[Arkady]

The Air Force Commander stated that everyone that need rescue or evacuation had already been taken care of. He stated many people were staying in place, and that they could be supplied with trucks and boats, helicopters are not necessary. He also stated that it was too dangerous to fly so many helicopters at the same time. Unbelievable!

Yeah right. Just like the goons in Burma refused international help because their people were happy eating frogs to stay alive while the Burmese military stayed snug, dry and well fed in their barracks.

The US military has great resources and training that can be of help to the Thai military. This could be made to look like a big win for the top brass. There are just like little kids frightened of losing face. So sad.

[Bagwan]

I would be entirely unsurprised if the agenda behind this alleged rejection was to further undermine the current government. Of course the US government would never interfere like that, so maybe I am being paranoid. Possibly the Thais looked at the US efforts in Katrina and said "Thanks, but no thanks"?

BTW, if you want to look for examples of government's rejecting needed aid, look no further than the USA:

Katrina aid from Cuba? No thanks, says U.S. America welcomes foreign help, except from an old Cold War foe

http://www.msnbc.msn...thanks-says-us/

That was an offer of 1100 urgently needed English speaking doctors for Katrina. Hate to break it to you, but Thailand is far from the only nation that is worried about 'face'.

I hesitate to criticise the US but at times they are not too clever and overweening in their assessments. During WW2 many sailors lost their lives thanks to the US not installing a convoy system and operating a blackout along their eastern seaboard, many aircraft and their crews were lost when making escorted daylight raids on Germany without fighter cover, the Mulberry harbour that was allocated to them for the invasion of Europe was smashed up and made unusable because they laid out only half the anchors recommended. All of these happened because they just wouldn't listen to Brit advice. Compare Westmoreland's tactics in Vietnam with those of Templer's In Malaya and look at the outcome of those situations. This is not an attempt to bad mouth the US, I have worked in that country on three separate occasions and have several American friends, but loss of face and downright pigheadedness are not exclusively Thai traits.

On a lighter note one thing that the US Army excels at is creating and developing a black market, Hollywood even made films about that. Maybe the powers in Thailand wanted all the cream for themselves?.

[hedonist44]

A nuclear aircraft carrier - think how much water that sucker could push out of the river. Now all we have to find is something to tie it to.......................

Government House???

[rametindallas]

Just to play devils advocate here, the quote in the OP seems a bit odd:

"There were two channels (in the Thai government)," the defense official told AFP

It is not clear if the 'government' bit was said at all as I have not seen anyone speak in brackets before.

There are posts here showing exsamples of the PM asking for help and the US military offering it before so could the branch ofd 'government' that is refusing help be the Thai military as the US military will obviously have high level contact with them directly due to the annual Cobra Gold exercises. There would also be the face issue as they would not want to see a foreign military doing what they are not capable of and, to be really cynical, would they really want a foreign military active on the streets of Bangkok if there wanted mount a coup to take control at some point.

Also it would be very difficult to overule the Thai military if they put a block on this without a major diplomatic incident (or indeed point the finger of blame!).

The Thai Military has historically close relations wiht the US Military so I'm pretty sure the veto didn't come from there, That leaves only the government that has lied and been paranoid that someone would find out how incompetent they are to be the ones to nix the help. If I am ever drowning, I don't care it it's Ahmadinajad who pulls me out of the water; I just want to be saved.

I wouldn't be surprised if that other voice that declined the help came form the Thai military. Such Ego and face saving issues as some assume as the reason i would think that some army generals have them and not Yingluck.

The Thai military is not the face of who's handling this crisis and therefore their face is not at risk. The Yingluck government is the face of the disaster management and has everything to lose by being shown up by US Navy efficiency. It's called 'logic'

[animatic]

...today the US help you, tomorrow they'll be ready to reclaim the favor and put it in your a**...

and don't tell me it never happened before

Very stupid comment mezcal.It's people like you who make this world a harder place to live.Shame on you for making such a stupid and biased comment.

Indeed, very immature as well..... what the Thais should REALLY worry about is all this fast money in form of assistance from their northern neighbor - China. If one thinks there are no strings attached, one has another think coming....

For a change we agree.

The China Quid Pro Quo will be massive and managed by the usual suspects. The US offer was much much more benign and of near instant practicality. The 1200lb gorilla in the corner of Asia, is waiting for profit and leverage across the whole of S.E. Asia.

------------------------------------------------------

Several comments about Katrina,

and USA dam building are lacking VERY pertinent facts.

a ) The waves hitting those dikes were a full category above design limits 30 years earlier. These dikes had been left to decay by politicians decisions, against repeated army CoE recommendations to repair and upgrade them.

b ) Politicians and budget weenies prevented the army from;

1 ) building them better originally ( it can't happen here)

2 ) reinforcing them to cat 5 specs 15 years earlier when the army repeatedly reported it was needed. ( it can't happen here)

c ) Aid was accepted and distributed by the army/national guard earliest in the Katrina disaster. Coming from dozens of nations. Cuba being a rare exception, and not worth even bothering about. Likely more cost to making sure there was not spy infiltration than the actual aid provided.

d ) Army and National Guard are the best 'tough situation' first responders around, but not every thing in the Act Of God category is preventable by mans best efforts.

e ) Brownie was an idiot, and Bush a bigger one for putting him in the job. Naked Cronyism, just like we see in the Yingluck government.

f ) What mismanagement we see here, makes post Katrina cock-ups pale in comparison.

Edited October 25, 2011 by thaiphoon

[Buchholz]

There is no USS Mustain in the U.S. Navy inventory.

There is a USS Mustin.

Apparently it has stayed in Thailand while the USS George Washington and its other escort ships have left Thailand and are bound for Japan.

So now you expect me to be an expert on the US Navy fleet? I am just passing on updated news when it is relevant.

I humbly thank you for the correction an I hope you feel better now.

No expectation for you to be an expert, but hopefully, there is an expectation of accuracy in other comments beyond the Tweet, which was the point of my reply.

The inference of the post was that US help has been rejected, but it seems that it has not in this case. It does not really matter which ship is involved does it?

Rather than attempt to speculate on inferences of the OP, why not deal with the specific words in the OP that several ships left?

For all intents and purposes, the U.S. Navy offer of help being declined by the government remains accurate. A single small destroyer remaining out of entire aircraft carrier task force changes precious little from that.

.

[gohmer]

We should send over some FEMA guys to help out....

You are joking, aren't you? Read this.

"After being roundly criticized in a slew of media, congressional and government reports, the Federal Emergency Management Agency's internal watchdog Friday returned its own verdict on the handling of Hurricane Katrina: The criticism against FEMA is largely deserved.

In a hefty 218-page report, the Department of Homeland Security's inspector general writes that the federal government and FEMA received "widespread criticism for a slow and ineffective response to Hurricane Katrina."

"Much of the criticism is warranted," Inspector General Richard L. Skinner writes.

The report gives an account of FEMA's recent history and response to Katrina, covering ground that has been well-plowed in recent months, although adding some details.

It describes manpower problems, a decline in planning for natural disasters as attention focused on possible terrorist scenarios, and confusion over the roles and responsibilities of officials in responding to disasters."

It would seem that the Americans are no better than the Thais in circumstances like this.

Except you ignorant jerk, the Americans are self-critical, openly review and discuss, and make changes, not just stick their heads in the sand and blame others later.