March 11, 201214 yr Too bad there aren't more like him Thomas Jefferson This is amazing. There are two parts. Be sure to read the 2nd part (in RED). Thomas Jefferson was a very remarkable man who started learning very early in life and never stopped. At 5, began studying under his cousin's tutor. At 9, studied Latin, Greek and French. At 14, studied classical literature and additional languages. At 16, entered the College of William and Mary. At 19, studied Law for 5 years starting under George Wythe. At 23, started his own law practice. At 25, was elected to the Virginia House of Burgesses. At 31, wrote the widely circulated "Summary View of the Rights of British America and retired from his law practice. At 32, was a Delegate to the Second Continental Congress. At 33, wrote the Declaration of Independence .. At 33, took three years to revise Virginia 's legal code and wrote a Public Education bill and a statute for Religious Freedom. At 36, was elected the second Governor of Virginia , succeeding Patrick Henry. At 40, served in Congress for two years. At 41, was the American minister to France ,and negotiated commercial treaties with European nations along with Ben Franklin and John Adams. At 46, served as the first Secretary of State under George Washington. At 53, served as Vice President and was elected president of the American Philosophical Society. At 55, drafted the Kentucky Resolutions, and became the active head of Republican Party. At 57, was elected the third president of the United States .. At 60, obtained the Louisiana Purchase , doubling the nation's size. At 61, was elected to a second term as President. At 65, retired to Monticello .. At 80, helped President Monroe shape the Monroe Doctrine. At 81, almost single-handedly created the University of Virginia , and served as its first president. At 83, died on the 50th anniversary of the Signing of the Declaration of Independence , along with John Adams Thomas Jefferson knew because he himself studied the previous failed attempts at government. He understood actual history, the nature of God, his laws and the nature of man. That happens to be way more than what most understand today. Jefferson really knew his stuff. A voice from the past to lead us in the future: John F. Kennedy held a dinner in the white House for a group of the brightest minds in the nation at that time. He made this statement: "This is perhaps the assembly of the most intelligence ever to gather at one time in the White House with the exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone." "When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe .." -- Thomas Jefferson "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." -- Thomas Jefferson "It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world." -- Thomas Jefferson "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." -- Thomas Jefferson "My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -- Thomas Jefferson "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." – ThomasJefferson "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson Thomas Jefferson said in 1802: "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
March 11, 201214 yr I agree & Ron Paul is the closest thing to him I have ever seen run for president Sadly it may be too late, because no matter how great a leader might be..... It is the people/citizens themselves who have slipped the farthest from America's founding principles. Too many who claim to be Americans think first of another countrys welfare rather than America's Also as TJ predicted the banks & those that own them...including & most importantly the FED Reserve have come to rule & are in fact more dangerous than any standing army.
March 11, 201214 yr A lot of highly penetrating remarks.... except those on the use of arms, which were relevant to his age, but not to ours. That what suits one age may well not suit another is one of the lessons of history... which in this case the American people have not learnt.
March 11, 201214 yr A lot of highly penetrating remarks.... except those on the use of arms, which were relevant to his age, but not to ours. That what suits one age may well not suit another is one of the lessons of history... which in this case the American people have not learnt. Actually the arms comments are as important today if not more than when he said them.....IMO of course This is of course the reason........ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson
March 11, 201214 yr A lot of highly penetrating remarks.... except those on the use of arms, which were relevant to his age, but not to ours. That what suits one age may well not suit another is one of the lessons of history... which in this case the American people have not learnt. Actually the arms comments are as important today if not more than when he said them.....IMO of course This is of course the reason........ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson I'm aware that feelings for and against the gun laws run high in the US; my reasoning was that the US is no longer a frontier state, and the normal forces of law and order should be sufficient to protect the people. I am astonished that you could even suggest that the tyranny of the US Government could reach a level where the citizens would need to take up arms to defend themselves against it. Is the US government really as bad as that?
March 11, 201214 yr A lot of highly penetrating remarks.... except those on the use of arms, which were relevant to his age, but not to ours. That what suits one age may well not suit another is one of the lessons of history... which in this case the American people have not learnt. Actually the arms comments are as important today if not more than when he said them.....IMO of course This is of course the reason........ "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson I'm aware that feelings for and against the gun laws run high in the US; my reasoning was that the US is no longer a frontier state, and the normal forces of law and order should be sufficient to protect the people. I am astonished that you could even suggest that the tyranny of the US Government could reach a level where the citizens would need to take up arms to defend themselves against it. Is the US government really as bad as that? Here is yet another Jefferson quote: "It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others: or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own." Thomas Jefferson
March 11, 201214 yr ...and yet another quote alleged to have been said by Admiral Yamamoto. "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, 1941
March 11, 201214 yr ...and this from today's Drudge Report: Elderly farmer near Bois D'Arc pulls gun on 3 thieves who came back for more West says three men stole nearly $3,000 worth of equipment from one of his sheds. He missed the first time they came around, but not the second. “He started climbing over the gate, and I told him not to climb over. He climbed over anyway, so I pulled a gun on him,” West said. “I told him, ‘Do you see where it's cocked?’ He says, ‘I can see,’” West said. “He was sassy. He told me he wasn't going to do it.” Article here: http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-elderly-farmer-catches-3-thieves-on-his-property-20120308,0,3526257.story
March 11, 201214 yr I'm aware that feelings for and against the gun laws run high in the US; my reasoning was that the US is no longer a frontier state, and the normal forces of law and order should be sufficient to protect the people. I am astonished that you could even suggest that the tyranny of the US Government could reach a level where the citizens would need to take up arms to defend themselves against it. Is the US government really as bad as that? 1) It was NEVER about being a frontier state 2) It was about protecting what our forefathers fought to obtain...Freedom, Liberty, Unalienable Rights Could the tyranny reach such a level? It is so close it is amazing anyone cannot see it. The Government sees it... It is not a matter of if only when...folks decide enough is enough & take back what was once theirs & taken from them one line at a time under the pretense of security At that moment there will be choices made. Our sons & daughters who serve in the Military will have to remember their oath & to who/what it was sworn. The same for law enforcement as they too will have a choice to make. Organizations like Oathkeepers have done well to educate but will it be enough? I do not know. You can see that many of the Military Enlisted men & women are awake & Ron Paul has more than three times the campaign contributions from Enlisted personnel than all the other candidates combined Can it happen? Will it happen? I hope not...... None want to see Americans fighting Americans More Americans died in the civil war than any other war in America's history. What chuck quoted about Admiral Yamamoto saying..... Matters not if the admiral said it or not....it is TRUE In 2009 when this crisis started really getting rolling Americans in THREE Months bought more guns than required to outfit the ENTIRE Indian & Chinese militaries combined. By the time 2009 ended the civilian population which was always well armed now had more weaponry then 21 of the worlds standing armies. So back to your original question...... tyranny of the US Government could reach a level where the citizens would need to take up arms to defend themselves against it. Is the US government really as bad as that? I would say We The People have already voted on it & acted accordingly
March 11, 201214 yr Thomas Jefferson was certainly very bright for his time- and one of the smartest presidents the US ever had, back when it wasn't taboo to be smart and a politician- the potential candidates for a 20th century (one shouldn't even waste one's time with the 21st) match are slim- maaaaybe one of the Roosevelts or Truman or Wilson, maaaaaybe Clinton (and I'll even give a potential nod to Nixon if you ignore the evil factor). But they didn't lead the same kinds of lives and weren't 'smart' in the same kinds of ways. Jefferson had a 'classical' education- which pretty much says that he was probably born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
March 11, 201214 yr I know this is Bedlam, but this isn't the US politics free-for-all thread; let's try to keep things a little more focussed- thanks.
March 12, 201214 yr That is truly frightening. Agreed. Doesn't the ownership of guns encourage the use of them?
March 12, 201214 yr That is truly frightening. Agreed. Doesn't the ownership of guns encourage the use of them? An armed society is a polite society
March 12, 201214 yr That is truly frightening. Agreed. Doesn't the ownership of guns encourage the use of them? An armed society is a polite society You mean, people are polite because they might otherwise get shot? No, thankyou!
March 12, 201214 yr An armed society is a polite society You mean, people are polite because they might otherwise get shot? No, thankyou! You are confusing criminal ownership with responsible ownership...They are not the same at all..... Actually the phrase was attributed to Robert Heinlein & you will find explanations along these lines...... Robert A. Heinlein wrote that an armed society is a polite society. The common perception is that armed societies were polite because an act of rudeness might evolve into a duel, as portrayed in Dumas' The Three Musketeers. The real reason, though, is the mindset and psychology that come with responsible weapon ownership. The knight's sword was a symbol of his duty to protect weaker members of society and behave chivalrously, e.g. with respect and courtesy to women, elderly people, and so on. The sword was the soul of the Japanese samurai, a constant reminder of the samurai's duty and code of behavior. The sword was a symbol of taking responsibility, not only for one's self, but usually for others.
March 12, 201214 yr There is a famous old saying that has been around ever since liberals started trying to quash the 2nd Amendment... When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
March 12, 201214 yr An armed society is a polite society You mean, people are polite because they might otherwise get shot? No, thankyou! You are confusing criminal ownership with responsible ownership...They are not the same at all..... Actually the phrase was attributed to Robert Heinlein & you will find explanations along these lines...... Robert A. Heinlein wrote that an armed society is a polite society. The common perception is that armed societies were polite because an act of rudeness might evolve into a duel, as portrayed in Dumas' The Three Musketeers. The real reason, though, is the mindset and psychology that come with responsible weapon ownership. The knight's sword was a symbol of his duty to protect weaker members of society and behave chivalrously, e.g. with respect and courtesy to women, elderly people, and so on. The sword was the soul of the Japanese samurai, a constant reminder of the samurai's duty and code of behavior. The sword was a symbol of taking responsibility, not only for one's self, but usually for others. No, I am not confusing criminal ownership with responsible ownership. What kind of society is it where a responsible person feels he needs to own a gun to defend himself? Heinlein's examples are both pre-modern, the musketeers from the seventeenth century, and the samurai a bit later.... but mediaeval in concept. Next thing, you'll be citing the knights of the round table. Doubtless some gun owners in the US are highly responsible... but the door is open for cuckoos like the guy who shot up Columbine High School (I can't remember the other instances, but there are several). Not to mention the assassination of Kennedy, and attempted assassination of Reagan. A pity that these quotes were included, Ian, because most of the others are excellent.
March 12, 201214 yr Next thing, you'll be citing the knights of the round table. Sorry you missed the point/intent It was the mindset that went with responsible ownership not the time nor the exact examples. It was as it is now a code of behavior . Yes of course there are terrible folks in the world....ALL of the world. They will always have a means to achieve their end....They will always find a gun/knife/club what ever....the need to do what they will do regardless of laws. So I guess you also are also bothered by places like Switzerland then? It is fine to have your opinion & you are entitled to it.....there is no law requiring citizens in America to own firearms. But it is their Constitutional RIGHT to do so if they so choose. People who would say...."A pity that these quotes were included" Do not understand what the forefathers were about especially Jefferson & especially those quotes.
March 12, 201214 yr Watch this testimony before Congress. An impact is made at the 5:10 mark of the video with a valid thought on the founder's thoughts on the second amendment.
March 12, 201214 yr Given the recent actions of a US serviceman in Afghanistan I would ask you , flying, do you still believe guns are safe in the hands of civilians? Edit: Switzerland has great dope laws. I'm not concerned about them at all.
March 12, 201214 yr Given the recent actions of a US serviceman in Afghanistan I would ask you , flying, do you still believe guns are safe in the hands of civilians? Guns have no mind Smokie.....There are evil/sick people in the world & they will achieve their goals with or without a mindless gun. Would I rather the whole world was disarmed? 100% YES Would I rather just the criminals or the government & those they allow to have weapons have them? 100% NO Remember too that the man in Afghanistan was not a law abiding civilian but a soldier that the Government armed. Again it was not the gun but the intentions of a madman that were wrongful. But you make a good point.... What if the Afghan civilians were all armed? Would he have killed less before being killed?
March 13, 201214 yr If only everybody was responsible.... That really is the essence of the gun debate. Switzerland is an interesting case. Every male Swiss citizen between certain ages is technically in the Swiss Army, and has a gun and ammunition in his possession. Yet, Switzerland is one of the safest places in the world (and I haven't forgotten the attack on the legislature of Zug (I think, or was it Schwyz?)). What is it about the Swiss?
March 14, 201213 yr Yes, Jefferson was a genius for his times, but the vision of America he had was a backwater nation of gentlemen slave owning farmers. His nemesis, Alexander Hamilton, was ultimately much more important in shaping the great superpower we know as America today, and his contribution was much more consequential.
March 14, 201213 yr If only everybody was responsible.... That really is the essence of the gun debate. Switzerland is an interesting case. Every male Swiss citizen between certain ages is technically in the Swiss Army, and has a gun and ammunition in his possession. Yet, Switzerland is one of the safest places in the world (and I haven't forgotten the attack on the legislature of Zug (I think, or was it Schwyz?)). What is it about the Swiss? It's also the country with the highest rate of gun suicide in Europe. http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_for_the_record/european_records/Switzerland_s_troubling_record_of_suicide.html?cid=8301804
March 14, 201213 yr If only everybody was responsible.... That really is the essence of the gun debate. Switzerland is an interesting case. Every male Swiss citizen between certain ages is technically in the Swiss Army, and has a gun and ammunition in his possession. Yet, Switzerland is one of the safest places in the world (and I haven't forgotten the attack on the legislature of Zug (I think, or was it Schwyz?)). What is it about the Swiss? It's also the country with the highest rate of gun suicide in Europe. http://www.swissinfo...tml?cid=8301804 Of course it is; the Swiss have the guns and the others don't. Both of which statements (yours and mine) mean very little.
March 14, 201213 yr Yes, Jefferson was a genius for his times, but the vision of America he had was a backwater nation of gentlemen slave owning farmers. Hence the comparison with Ron Paul.
March 14, 201213 yr When I was 16 I was in the Royal Navy. I was getting bullied by this 25 year old guy who one day took it too far and gave me quite a severe beating. Yes, I was a lippy young lad but didn't deserve that. Cos I was much smaller than he, I waited till he went to sleep and beat the cr4p out of him with my steel toecapped boot. I had totally lost it and had I had a gun, I honestly think I would have used it. Thankfully I didn't have one. However, the result was the same. He never touched me again. He thought I was a phsyco and thought I would kill him the next time he laid a finger on me. We agreed never to talk to each other again. It's the "heat of the moment" incidents like these, that has me worried about civilians having guns.
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