Australia Catches Another Boatload Of Asylum Seekers Off Its Coast

[Will27]

http://www.theage.co...0618-20kch.html Couple of questions, I wonder what the implications will be if they rule in favour of the refugee ,and (2) I wonder if a scenario like this would have happened under the previous Howard administration?,any answers please

I'd suggest it would be pretty safe to assume he was a boat arrival.

Under the Howard govt, he probably wouldn't have got to Australia

in the first place.

The govt should bring back TPV's ASAP.

Regards

Will

[Colin Yai]

http://www.theage.co...0618-20kch.html Couple of questions, I wonder what the implications will be if they rule in favour of the refugee ,and (2) I wonder if a scenario like this would have happened under the previous Howard administration?,any answers please

If you are referring to the volume of refugees entering the country under Howard government, maybe this guy would not have entered Australia by sea. But the article doesn't refer to mode of entry into Australia. I would assume this individual is deemed a security risk due to membership of the Tamil Tigers, who were defeated after twenty years of civil war in Sri Lanka. The Sri Lankan government forces were not exactly "clean" as they murdered many civilians. As you already know Australia is bound by it's agreements on human rights; so what do you propose, sending him/them back to Sri Lanka for torture and execution? The implication is that the Australian government stands by it's international obligations. If the majority of Australians, assessed by a referendum? wish the government to cancel it's agreements, and wipe out Australia's reputation as a fair and reasonable country, so be it

I do not propose anything, I was merely asking other peoples opinions ,thank you for yours , and of course you have firm evidence if he is shipped back from whence he came he will be tortured and then executed

[simple1]

http://www.theage.co...0618-20kch.html Couple of questions, I wonder what the implications will be if they rule in favour of the refugee ,and (2) I wonder if a scenario like this would have happened under the previous Howard administration?,any answers please

If you are referring to the volume of refugees entering the country under Howard government, maybe this guy would not have entered Australia by sea. But the article doesn't refer to mode of entry into Australia. I would assume this individual is deemed a security risk due to membership of the Tamil Tigers, who were defeated after twenty years of civil war in Sri Lanka. The Sri Lankan government forces were not exactly "clean" as they murdered many civilians. As you already know Australia is bound by it's agreements on human rights; so what do you propose, sending him/them back to Sri Lanka for torture and execution? The implication is that the Australian government stands by it's international obligations. If the majority of Australians, assessed by a referendum? wish the government to cancel it's agreements, and wipe out Australia's reputation as a fair and reasonable country, so be it

I do not propose anything, I was merely asking other peoples opinions ,thank you for yours , and of course you have firm evidence if he is shipped back from whence he came he will be tortured and then executed

Sri Lanka government will hardly let me into their prisons. However, read the article link you posted that does talk to this. Also it's documented by the likes of Amnesty International International and various other international agencies. No doubt you will accuse them all of being left organisations with no creditability.

[Scott]

There are always a handful of refugees who fall into categories that exclude them from resettlement. It sounds like they have about 50 refugees who fall into this category.

Courts can order a release, but they don't have the power to actually have them released. If they are a real threat to security, it's likely they will find some other law under which to hold them. The very basic question is one of indefinite detention and that one is harder to solve.

[Colin Yai]

Yeah Dan ,this word "human rights" so often bandied about these days, which I can put my hand of my heart I care about as much as any man, but human rights should be applicable to all walks of life, sadly IMHO this is not the case, had this lady no right to walk on a public road without being sexually molested ? there are quite a few cases of this nature in Australia http://www.actforaus...ker-jailed-rape is it any wonder why many Australians are dead set against further "immigration" from middle Eastern Country's.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Colin Yai]

http://www.theage.co...0618-20kch.html Couple of questions, I wonder what the implications will be if they rule in favour of the refugee ,and (2) I wonder if a scenario like this would have happened under the previous Howard administration?,any answers please

If you are referring to the volume of refugees entering the country under Howard government, maybe this guy would not have entered Australia by sea. But the article doesn't refer to mode of entry into Australia. I would assume this individual is deemed a security risk due to membership of the Tamil Tigers, who were defeated after twenty years of civil war in Sri Lanka. The Sri Lankan government forces were not exactly "clean" as they murdered many civilians. As you already know Australia is bound by it's agreements on human rights; so what do you propose, sending him/them back to Sri Lanka for torture and execution? The implication is that the Australian government stands by it's international obligations. If the majority of Australians, assessed by a referendum? wish the government to cancel it's agreements, and wipe out Australia's reputation as a fair and reasonable country, so be it

I do not propose anything, I was merely asking other peoples opinions ,thank you for yours , and of course you have firm evidence if he is shipped back from whence he came he will be tortured and then executed

Sri Lanka government will hardly let me into their prisons. However, read the article link you posted that does talk to this. Also it's documented by the likes of Amnesty International International and various other international agencies. No doubt you will accuse them all of being left organisations with no creditability.

I am making no accusations merely asking questions, so please get off your high horse ,

[Scott]

People can get into some really difficult situations. When I was in Iraq after the first Gulf war, there was a Kuwaiti who was living under the bridge between Iraq and Turkey. Iraq would not allow him to return through Iraq and Turkey wouldn't allow him into the country. The border guards brought him food each day, but he was in this 'no man's land for a very long time.' I have no idea what happened to him.

I was aware of a screened-out refugee in Hong Kong who was (supposedly) from Vietnam, but was ethnic Chinese. Vietnam said he wasn't Vietnamese and China said he wasn't from China. He was held in detention for many, many years. Again, I don't know what happened to him.

After the Gulf War, Saddam re-invaded the Kurdish held area and many thousands of refugees were taken out by the US gov't. The first group were the local CIA operatives and informants. They were taken to Guam and many of them were held in detention for a very long time because they were found ineligible for resettlement--many had been former Saddam loyalists who had participated in Crimes Against Humanity. I am not sure what has happened to them now either.

For refugees, the issue of non-refoulment is paramount.

[Colin Yai]

Could some one out there who is far better qualified than myself please "pick the bones" out of this huge problemhttp://www.abc.net.a...11/s3305171.htm

Edited June 19, 2012 by Colin Yai

[simple1]

Could some one out there who is far better qualified than myself please "pick the bones" out of this huge problemhttp://www.abc.net.a...11/s3305171.htm

"I am making no accusations merely asking questions, so please get off your high horse". Colin, get real, you ask questions and if the response does not reinforce your existing opinions you ignore the content or dismiss them; so why do you bother.

In relation to law, your question above has already been answered by Scott.

[Colin Yai]

Could some one out there who is far better qualified than myself please "pick the bones" out of this huge problemhttp://www.abc.net.a...11/s3305171.htm

"I am making no accusations merely asking questions, so please get off your high horse". Colin, get real, you ask questions and if the response does not reinforce your existing opinions you ignore the content or dismiss them; so why do you bother.

In relation to law, your question above has already been answered by Scott.

In your case a bit of the old kettle calling the pan black, I remember you writing that Soft George was "scraping the bottom of the barrel and writing "drivel" in your post 133 sure there will be differences of opinion is that some how a crime? Edited June 19, 2012 by Colin Yai

[edwinclapham]

ASIO is a law unto itself. It is not required to have a voice. Simple!

The cases you have cited on your link Colin are very common.. to date I believe there are 50 similar cases to date. If you go back to one of my initial posts, a SL refugee and her children were free to wed in Melbourne, were awarded a refugee status visa and after a year of living in the community was sent to a detention centre in Sydney. Her new husband, the schools etc were not informed. No luggage taken..why? ASIO came back with " she was a security risk.".

A transcript from the Drum might enlighten you...

Locking people away forever because ASIO reckons

http://www.abc.net.a...ed/4025808.html

"By not implementing a right for refugees (or their security-cleared advocates, or a tribunal) to question the merits of individual cases, we have, by accident, established a system where we literally lock people away forever just because somebody at ASIO "reckons"."

Edited June 19, 2012 by edwinclapham

[simple1]

Could some one out there who is far better qualified than myself please "pick the bones" out of this huge problemhttp://www.abc.net.a...11/s3305171.htm

"I am making no accusations merely asking questions, so please get off your high horse". Colin, get real, you ask questions and if the response does not reinforce your existing opinions you ignore the content or dismiss them; so why do you bother.

In relation to law, your question above has already been answered by Scott.

In your case a bit of the old kettle calling the pan black

Not correct, I have responded to many of your posts & you have not attempted to refute one of them with content from internationally recognised organisations.

[Colin Yai]

Could some one out there who is far better qualified than myself please "pick the bones" out of this huge problemhttp://www.abc.net.a...11/s3305171.htm

"I am making no accusations merely asking questions, so please get off your high horse". Colin, get real, you ask questions and if the response does not reinforce your existing opinions you ignore the content or dismiss them; so why do you bother.

In relation to law, your question above has already been answered by Scott.

In your case a bit of the old kettle calling the pan black

Not correct, I have responded to many of your posts & you have not attempted to refute one of them with content from internationally recognised organisations.

I have edited the post above please read it.

[Colin Yai]

ASIO is a law unto itself. It is not required to have a voice. Simple!

The cases you have cited on your link Colin are very common.. to date I believe there are 50 similar cases to date. If you go back to one of my initial posts, a SL refugee and her children were free to wed in Melbourne, were awarded a refugee status visa and after a year of living in the community was sent to a detention centre in Sydney. Her new husband, the schools etc were not informed. No luggage taken..why? ASIO came back with " she was a security risk.".

A transcript from the Drum might enlighten you...

Locking people away forever because ASIO reckons

http://www.abc.net.a...ed/4025808.html

"By not implementing a right for refugees (or their security-cleared advocates, or a tribunal) to question the merits of individual cases, we have, by accident, established a system where we literally lock people away forever just because somebody at ASIO "reckons"."

Thanks for the very informative link , maybe it would be far better if ASIO provides the reason for their actions, but then I suppose it may be viewed as a "security risk" what a bloody mess , maybe if Howards legislation was still law , insane situations like this might not have arrived or in the future may not arise

[simple1]

Could some one out there who is far better qualified than myself please "pick the bones" out of this huge problemhttp://www.abc.net.a...11/s3305171.htm

"I am making no accusations merely asking questions, so please get off your high horse". Colin, get real, you ask questions and if the response does not reinforce your existing opinions you ignore the content or dismiss them; so why do you bother.

In relation to law, your question above has already been answered by Scott.

In your case a bit of the old kettle calling the pan black, I remember you writing that Soft George was "scraping the bottom of the barrel and writing "drivel" in your post 133 sure there will be differences of opinion is that some how a crime?

No crime whatsoever, but government stats to support the premise would be useful. I had previously posted the breakdown of Centrelink expenditure in 2010/2011 that was ignored

[Steely Dan]

Yeah Dan ,this word "human rights" so often bandied about these days, which I can put my hand of my heart I care about as much as any man, but human rights should be applicable to all walks of life, sadly IMHO this is not the case, had this lady no right to walk on a public road without being sexually molested ? there are quite a few cases of this nature in Australia http://www.actforaus...ker-jailed-rape is it any wonder why many Australians are dead set against further "immigration" from middle Eastern Country's.

Exactly Colin, The prison statistics tell the tale, but sadly some political parties are more concerned with rigging voter demographics in their favour or providing the short term sticking plaster of cheap labour than they are for the long term well being of their nations, so inevitable standards are relaxed and many get in who should never have done so. Can there be a clearer example of treason to ones own nation?

[Colin Yai]

Yeah Dan ,this word "human rights" so often bandied about these days, which I can put my hand of my heart I care about as much as any man, but human rights should be applicable to all walks of life, sadly IMHO this is not the case, had this lady no right to walk on a public road without being sexually molested ? there are quite a few cases of this nature in Australia http://www.actforaus...ker-jailed-rape is it any wonder why many Australians are dead set against further "immigration" from middle Eastern Country's.

Exactly Colin, The prison statistics tell the tale, but sadly some political parties are more concerned with rigging voter demographics in their favour or providing the short term sticking plaster of cheap labour than they are for the long term well being of their nations, so inevitable standards are relaxed and many get in who should never have done so. Can there be a clearer example of treason to ones own nation?

Yeah Dan ,but the worrying aspect today is betraying ones own conscience in the name of "political correctness" , were you can no longer speak the truth in case you are howled down by the left wing intelligentsia as a racist bigot etc etc (you know the script by now) ,lets just take this a little further , A News reader announces on Aussie TV that another boat has been intercepted full of "Asylum seekers" aboard the leaking hulk was 13 Kurds,yeah thats acceptable,7 Usbeks , yeah thats OK ,16 Afghans yep no problem , and 9 Paki's ,horror of horrors he has shortened the word and this is blatant racism and the switch board would be jammed with complaints by self righteous bleeding hearts, so much so that the News reader is suspended for 7 days with a formal apology to appease the baying mob , such is the crazy world facing us today were the "thought police" make the rule's as to what we can or cannot say or write . Edited June 19, 2012 by Colin Yai

[edwinclapham]

I think the ozzie skin is harder Colin in many respects and thats no disrespect.

Now in Australia I would accept it because its a country that does abbreviate all and sundry, albeit I was taken aback when I heard the "N" word bandied about pretty frequently. Now many of my friends who are black (you cant say coloured) will refer to themselves as "niggers" from time to time, but I abhor the word myself.. it reeks of the "Roots" era.

http://iainhall.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/nigger-not-offensive-in-queensland/

" The use of the word “nigger” in Queensland has been given the official thumbs up after a magistrate ruled it was ”not offensive to a reasonable person”.

Magistrate Michael O’Driscoll made the ruling yesterday when he dismissed a case against a Gold Coast retiree charged with sending an offensive facsimile to a local politician.

A staff member working for Broadwater MP Peta-Kaye Croft complained to police after receiving the document from 62-year-old Denis Mulheron of Labrador on June 30 last year.

Christie Turner, 28, told Southport Magistrates Court she was deeply offended when she read the one-page fax which called on the Labor Party to tighten immigration laws against ‘niggers’ and ‘sandnigger terrorists’ and Muslim women with circumcised genitals.

The fax also made reference to indigenous Australians as ‘Abos’.

Mr Mulheron told the court he believed he was using ‘everyday English’ in the fax. He said he had grown up with the slang terms for Arabs and black Africans and did not believe they were offensive.

“I’m not a member of the cafe, chardonnay and socialist set … to me that is everyday language,” he said.

He argued in court the slang terms were no different to calling a New Zealander a ‘Kiwi’ or an American a ‘Yank’.

But where I come from the word Paki is considered a huge no no. If I heard the Brits playing cricket against the Pakis I would fall off my chair. It is deemed racist under UK law.. much the same as getting a takeaway from the "Chinky".

Eddie

[samran]

Yeah Dan ,this word "human rights" so often bandied about these days, which I can put my hand of my heart I care about as much as any man, but human rights should be applicable to all walks of life, sadly IMHO this is not the case, had this lady no right to walk on a public road without being sexually molested ? there are quite a few cases of this nature in Australia http://www.actforaus...ker-jailed-rape is it any wonder why many Australians are dead set against further "immigration" from middle Eastern Country's.

Exactly Colin, The prison statistics tell the tale, but sadly some political parties are more concerned with rigging voter demographics in their favour or providing the short term sticking plaster of cheap labour than they are for the long term well being of their nations, so inevitable standards are relaxed and many get in who should never have done so. Can there be a clearer example of treason to ones own nation?

You blokes keep asking for links. What official statistics can you point to which give a break down of prisoners by ethnicity and or nationality? I'd genuninely be interested.

[Daewoo]

Mods – I understand your desire to keep this ‘on topic’ but I think the reason for the backlash against ‘illegal arrivals’ isn’t soley because of how they are entering, but more so what they do once they arrive. I hope after taking the time to write this up you will let it stay…

So many topics within this thread - Islamists Vs Christian? Asylum Seeker or Economic Migrant? Processing Vs Process? Claiming Benefits instead of working? Taxes being used for immigrants instead of pensioners? Come by boat or overstay? Stopping the boats Vs a legitimate queue? TPVs versus Residency???

In my job previous to this one, I worked with many Muslim Iraqis and Iranians (no Afgans that I can remember)... they were sponsored by the Chinese company to fill jobs that should have gone to Australians, because they would accept about half the wage an Aussie would, despite it being theoretically against the law... Every single one of them was a top bloke... and the one woman was GORGEOUS... I have no problem with Iraqis, Afgans, or Muslims... that should not be a criteria by which their suitability to enter is judged...

There isn’t a person in 90% of the worlds countries that can’t claim some sort of oppression… in most countries in half the country is one party is oppressing the other half, and the other half of the country it is the other half being oppressed… I think the obligation is upon the International Community to prevent situations in those countries from becoming so untenable that it creates a refugee exodus… I’m guessing that bombing the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan, then turning our backs on them hasn’t exactly helped things… Khmer Rouge and Cambodia ring a bell???

The vast majority of the 7 million Aussies on Centrelink payments, are on small payments such as Child Care Benefits, and Parenting Payments, used to offset the cost of raising a family against the massive cost of living...

By nationality or race, some groups have significantly higher representation in benefits, including Lebanese, North Africans, Iraqis, and particularly Aboriginals – whether that is the case because of discrimination against them, their lack of work ethic, their lack of appropriate skills… that is another topic… but choosing to live on benefits alone would be a major struggle… I looked into it when I suddenly found myself unemployed… payments would start after 3 months, because I had cash in an account that I had borrowed when I bought a house… after that 3 months spending the borrowed money, with 2 kids and a baby, and a wife who couldn’t work, I was eligible for a monthly payment of almost half of each months mortgage payment… choose to live on benefits, isn’t choosing life – perhaps why those same minorities are overrepresented in crime and imprisonment statistics…

The job market and wages for unskilled labour just doesn’t exist in parallel with the rest of Australia… It is impossible for all these people to simply ‘move to the country or the mines’ and get work… they don’t need dumb labourers, they need skilled and qualified people… aside from a bit of seasonal fruit picking for $6 and hour, or working in a hotel of $13 if they can find work… The immigrants with the lowest levels of unemployment or Chinese and Indian because they also own businesses and discriminate in favour of their own kind to fill any positions…

All asylum seekers are processed following a process… sure they destroy their documents, which they undoubtedly had when they left their country… otherwise they may have had repatriation forced upon them by any of the countries they passed through on their way to Australia… it isn’t like they couldn’t also pick up fake documents along the way, or before they leave using bogus information and bribes… Australia follows and established process of seeking input from NGOs active in the area the people have come from (left leaning organizations like Amnesty, Red Cross and UNHCR) along with the governments own intelligence gathering, to understand the level of threat and establish the truth within the ‘story’ provided to them by the refugee… doing that takes time, which is why the men (not women and children) stay in detention for so long… if it was more simple, or their case is more clear cut, their term in detention is shorter… if their application is denied, they have access to the entire Australian legal process, including free representation, to appeal to the highest court in the land, and then the UN… They people who have been in detention incredibly long times are those that have been determined as not eligible, but are fighting against that decision, as is their right… the argument is against keeping them detained for so long, but the other side is allowing them to create a life in Australia for 4 years, then send them back when their appeal is denied…

Almost no one working in Australia now will be eligible for the OAP… The government gives responsibility for looking after oneself back to the individual… I think it may have been to early with that, as my Dad for instance didn’t really understand the need to do that until about 15 years before he retired… that combined with the GFC wiping out about half of what he put away, has left my mum in a pretty precarious position financially… but I’ll look after her, which is how it happens all over the world… The connection between that and the refugee issues is far less relevant that government spending in other areas…

I think the crux of the issue is really about immigration as a whole, which represents about 60% of Australia’s annual population growth, and many people don’t like it… not just us ‘dumb Anglos’… 158,000 new arrivals each year, of which illegal maritime arrivals would make about 3.5%... sure there is something in here that Australia should have the right to control, but seriously, if we want to impact upon immigration, should we be focusing upon the other 96.5% that is set by government policy and not impacted by humanitarian and UN Obligations… for me, I am far more worried about Chinese immigration that 3.5% from Iraq and Afganistan, who have mostly become displaced in part by actions by foreign policy of The US with support of Australia…

For these people starting a new life in Indonesia or Malaysia isn’t an option… they have ‘non-person’ status, which means that none of those countries laws apply to them… they can’t work, they can’t secure accommodation, they are subject to eviction ad-hoc by police forces, there is no life for them there, because those countries won’t take them either… stay in their own region… in the Middle East – the only place they will be in danger more than at home is in a neighbouring country where there are centuries of built up and institutionalised hatred…

So they come to Australia, do we, once we decide their claim is legitimate, allow them to start a life here? Put their kids into school, provide them the basics of life, accommodation and health care, so that they can become a productive member of society? Or do we give them a TPV, which basically says that when The Government decides things are OK back in their country, we will round them up and send them home, whether they like it or not…

I know I am coming across as a bleeding heart lefty, but I am not… I will pay $80,000 in income tax this year, plus all the other hidden taxes, and it makes me sick… I don’t like immigration, and think multiculturalism is mostly a complete failure, because it is basically too high to be manageable… I don’t think anyone should be allowed to stay in Australia without our say so, but we should decide that fairly, and once they arrive give them every opportunity to thrive and become a productive member of society… history with the Lebanese and Vietnamese where society didn’t do that is not what we should use to measure the current wave of entrants…

Cheers,

Darryl

[Steely Dan]

Yeah Dan ,this word "human rights" so often bandied about these days, which I can put my hand of my heart I care about as much as any man, but human rights should be applicable to all walks of life, sadly IMHO this is not the case, had this lady no right to walk on a public road without being sexually molested ? there are quite a few cases of this nature in Australia http://www.actforaus...ker-jailed-rape is it any wonder why many Australians are dead set against further "immigration" from middle Eastern Country's.

Exactly Colin, The prison statistics tell the tale, but sadly some political parties are more concerned with rigging voter demographics in their favour or providing the short term sticking plaster of cheap labour than they are for the long term well being of their nations, so inevitable standards are relaxed and many get in who should never have done so. Can there be a clearer example of treason to ones own nation?

You blokes keep asking for links. What official statistics can you point to which give a break down of prisoners by ethnicity and or nationality? I'd genuninely be interested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8558590.stm

If you look there are plenty of resources. I will add more later as time permits, but here is the BBC on UK prison population, which is 12% Muslim out of a base population level of 3.8%, a big difference would you not agree. Figures for most of Europe show the same thing, except for Countries which deliberately withhold the data,

[samran]

Yeah Dan ,this word "human rights" so often bandied about these days, which I can put my hand of my heart I care about as much as any man, but human rights should be applicable to all walks of life, sadly IMHO this is not the case, had this lady no right to walk on a public road without being sexually molested ? there are quite a few cases of this nature in Australia http://www.actforaus...ker-jailed-rape is it any wonder why many Australians are dead set against further "immigration" from middle Eastern Country's.

Exactly Colin, The prison statistics tell the tale, but sadly some political parties are more concerned with rigging voter demographics in their favour or providing the short term sticking plaster of cheap labour than they are for the long term well being of their nations, so inevitable standards are relaxed and many get in who should never have done so. Can there be a clearer example of treason to ones own nation?

You blokes keep asking for links. What official statistics can you point to which give a break down of prisoners by ethnicity and or nationality? I'd genuninely be interested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8558590.stm

If you look there are plenty of resources. I will add more later as time permits, but here is the BBC on UK prison population, which is 12% Muslim out of a base population level of 3.8%, a big difference would you not agree. Figures for most of Europe show the same thing, except for Countries which deliberately withhold the data,

Sorry, I'm looking for Australian stats.

Australia does multiculturalism alot differently, and in my opinion, alot better. Aboriginals being the main exception.

[thaibeachlovers]

Wow what a thread, interested to know of all the pro asylum seeker supporters, are you paying significant Australian taxes only to struggle for the benefit of others?

Have you had do something as tough as LEGALLY immigrating your loved ones to Australia.

Vote in a Liberal government or stop patroling the northern waters and the problem will fix itself.

Firstly it's not a discussion on whether you are pro asylum seekers or not; it's about human rights. On the tax front it would be a drop in the ocean of total government expenditure for processing / supporting asylum seekers or refugees. It does annoy me that 7 million Australians are receiving some form of Centrelink payment.

Personally, yes I have gone through the legal process of obtaining PR for family who are now both Australian citizens.

Unfortunately the volume of posts has actually been related to the rights/wrongs of Muslims entering Australia. It seems to me those people who are anti Muslim have zero knowledge of the root causes of what is driving millions of Muslims into refugee camps.

If the Liberals get into power, I agree that action will be taken to change the current situation regards the minority of people arriving by sea, but not the majority who arrive by air.

And if the situation was reversed, and it was Ozzies trying to get into Afghanistan or Pakistan, how far do you think they would get- truthfully?

[thaibeachlovers]

Mods – I understand your desire to keep this ‘on topic’ but I think the reason for the backlash against ‘illegal arrivals’ isn’t soley because of how they are entering, but more so what they do once they arrive. I hope after taking the time to write this up you will let it stay…

So many topics within this thread - Islamists Vs Christian? Asylum Seeker or Economic Migrant? Processing Vs Process? Claiming Benefits instead of working? Taxes being used for immigrants instead of pensioners? Come by boat or overstay? Stopping the boats Vs a legitimate queue? TPVs versus Residency???

In my job previous to this one, I worked with many Muslim Iraqis and Iranians (no Afgans that I can remember)... they were sponsored by the Chinese company to fill jobs that should have gone to Australians, because they would accept about half the wage an Aussie would, despite it being theoretically against the law... Every single one of them was a top bloke... and the one woman was GORGEOUS... I have no problem with Iraqis, Afgans, or Muslims... that should not be a criteria by which their suitability to enter is judged...

There isn’t a person in 90% of the worlds countries that can’t claim some sort of oppression… in most countries in half the country is one party is oppressing the other half, and the other half of the country it is the other half being oppressed… I think the obligation is upon the International Community to prevent situations in those countries from becoming so untenable that it creates a refugee exodus… I’m guessing that bombing the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan, then turning our backs on them hasn’t exactly helped things… Khmer Rouge and Cambodia ring a bell???

The vast majority of the 7 million Aussies on Centrelink payments, are on small payments such as Child Care Benefits, and Parenting Payments, used to offset the cost of raising a family against the massive cost of living...

By nationality or race, some groups have significantly higher representation in benefits, including Lebanese, North Africans, Iraqis, and particularly Aboriginals – whether that is the case because of discrimination against them, their lack of work ethic, their lack of appropriate skills… that is another topic… but choosing to live on benefits alone would be a major struggle… I looked into it when I suddenly found myself unemployed… payments would start after 3 months, because I had cash in an account that I had borrowed when I bought a house… after that 3 months spending the borrowed money, with 2 kids and a baby, and a wife who couldn’t work, I was eligible for a monthly payment of almost half of each months mortgage payment… choose to live on benefits, isn’t choosing life – perhaps why those same minorities are overrepresented in crime and imprisonment statistics…

The job market and wages for unskilled labour just doesn’t exist in parallel with the rest of Australia… It is impossible for all these people to simply ‘move to the country or the mines’ and get work… they don’t need dumb labourers, they need skilled and qualified people… aside from a bit of seasonal fruit picking for $6 and hour, or working in a hotel of $13 if they can find work… The immigrants with the lowest levels of unemployment or Chinese and Indian because they also own businesses and discriminate in favour of their own kind to fill any positions…

All asylum seekers are processed following a process… sure they destroy their documents, which they undoubtedly had when they left their country… otherwise they may have had repatriation forced upon them by any of the countries they passed through on their way to Australia… it isn’t like they couldn’t also pick up fake documents along the way, or before they leave using bogus information and bribes… Australia follows and established process of seeking input from NGOs active in the area the people have come from (left leaning organizations like Amnesty, Red Cross and UNHCR) along with the governments own intelligence gathering, to understand the level of threat and establish the truth within the ‘story’ provided to them by the refugee… doing that takes time, which is why the men (not women and children) stay in detention for so long… if it was more simple, or their case is more clear cut, their term in detention is shorter… if their application is denied, they have access to the entire Australian legal process, including free representation, to appeal to the highest court in the land, and then the UN… They people who have been in detention incredibly long times are those that have been determined as not eligible, but are fighting against that decision, as is their right… the argument is against keeping them detained for so long, but the other side is allowing them to create a life in Australia for 4 years, then send them back when their appeal is denied…

Almost no one working in Australia now will be eligible for the OAP… The government gives responsibility for looking after oneself back to the individual… I think it may have been to early with that, as my Dad for instance didn’t really understand the need to do that until about 15 years before he retired… that combined with the GFC wiping out about half of what he put away, has left my mum in a pretty precarious position financially… but I’ll look after her, which is how it happens all over the world… The connection between that and the refugee issues is far less relevant that government spending in other areas…

I think the crux of the issue is really about immigration as a whole, which represents about 60% of Australia’s annual population growth, and many people don’t like it… not just us ‘dumb Anglos’… 158,000 new arrivals each year, of which illegal maritime arrivals would make about 3.5%... sure there is something in here that Australia should have the right to control, but seriously, if we want to impact upon immigration, should we be focusing upon the other 96.5% that is set by government policy and not impacted by humanitarian and UN Obligations… for me, I am far more worried about Chinese immigration that 3.5% from Iraq and Afganistan, who have mostly become displaced in part by actions by foreign policy of The US with support of Australia…

For these people starting a new life in Indonesia or Malaysia isn’t an option… they have ‘non-person’ status, which means that none of those countries laws apply to them… they can’t work, they can’t secure accommodation, they are subject to eviction ad-hoc by police forces, there is no life for them there, because those countries won’t take them either… stay in their own region… in the Middle East – the only place they will be in danger more than at home is in a neighbouring country where there are centuries of built up and institutionalised hatred…

So they come to Australia, do we, once we decide their claim is legitimate, allow them to start a life here? Put their kids into school, provide them the basics of life, accommodation and health care, so that they can become a productive member of society? Or do we give them a TPV, which basically says that when The Government decides things are OK back in their country, we will round them up and send them home, whether they like it or not…

I know I am coming across as a bleeding heart lefty, but I am not… I will pay $80,000 in income tax this year, plus all the other hidden taxes, and it makes me sick… I don’t like immigration, and think multiculturalism is mostly a complete failure, because it is basically too high to be manageable… I don’t think anyone should be allowed to stay in Australia without our say so, but we should decide that fairly, and once they arrive give them every opportunity to thrive and become a productive member of society… history with the Lebanese and Vietnamese where society didn’t do that is not what we should use to measure the current wave of entrants…

Cheers,

Darryl

Thanks for the long and reasoned reply.

However, there are 2 things that I think have been overlooked in all this

1/ the problems in origin countries, IMO, come from overpopulation, but no one is daring to say or do anything about this. So, theoretically, over the years the trickle will turn to a tidal wave- what you gonna do then?

2/ Rather than running away to another country, an option would be to stay in their own country and do something about it themselves. Is it our responsibility to sort other countries problems ( think about it )?

IMO multiculturalism is a sick joke, perpetrated on western host populations by bleeding heart liberals with white guilt. How much muliculturalism do you think saudi arabia practices? They don't even allow you to practice Christianity, let alone build a church, but they expect the right to build mosques in western countries.

The thing that irks me immensly though, is that the guy who wants to bring his Thai wife to the west faces all sorts of legal hurdles and financial burden, while an illegal gets all sorts of taxpayer help.

[Colin Yai]

Yeah Dan ,this word "human rights" so often bandied about these days, which I can put my hand of my heart I care about as much as any man, but human rights should be applicable to all walks of life, sadly IMHO this is not the case, had this lady no right to walk on a public road without being sexually molested ? there are quite a few cases of this nature in Australia http://www.actforaus...ker-jailed-rape is it any wonder why many Australians are dead set against further "immigration" from middle Eastern Country's.

Exactly Colin, The prison statistics tell the tale, but sadly some political parties are more concerned with rigging voter demographics in their favour or providing the short term sticking plaster of cheap labour than they are for the long term well being of their nations, so inevitable standards are relaxed and many get in who should never have done so. Can there be a clearer example of treason to ones own nation?

You blokes keep asking for links. What official statistics can you point to which give a break down of prisoners by ethnicity and or nationality? I'd genuninely be interested.

you ask a question ,OK I will gladly answer The contents of this Link portrays the simple facts of just what is happening in nearly every Country in Europe were many of the perpetrators are now safely were they belong ,Prison http://centurean2.wordpress.com/2009/09/02/muslim-rape-epidemic-puts-sweden-at-top-of-euro-rape-statistics-peace-in-europe-surrender/ of course this may be viewed as an Anti Immigration Muslim rant however it is the truth however much people are "offended" by it .

[samran]

Yeah Dan ,this word "human rights" so often bandied about these days, which I can put my hand of my heart I care about as much as any man, but human rights should be applicable to all walks of life, sadly IMHO this is not the case, had this lady no right to walk on a public road without being sexually molested ? there are quite a few cases of this nature in Australia http://www.actforaus...ker-jailed-rape is it any wonder why many Australians are dead set against further "immigration" from middle Eastern Country's.

Exactly Colin, The prison statistics tell the tale, but sadly some political parties are more concerned with rigging voter demographics in their favour or providing the short term sticking plaster of cheap labour than they are for the long term well being of their nations, so inevitable standards are relaxed and many get in who should never have done so. Can there be a clearer example of treason to ones own nation?

You blokes keep asking for links. What official statistics can you point to which give a break down of prisoners by ethnicity and or nationality? I'd genuninely be interested.

you ask a question ,OK I will gladly answer The contents of this Link portrays the simple facts of just what is happening in nearly every Country in Europe were many of the perpetrators are now safely were they belong ,Prison http://centurean2.wo...rope-surrender/ of course this may be viewed as an Anti Immigration Muslim rant however it is the truth however much people are "offended" by it .

Which part of 'official' don't you understand?

My God, do you look at anything but extemist right wing nut job websites?

Give me an Australian government sourced website...if you can bring yourself to look at one. Can be any one. State, Federal. Up to you.

Edited June 19, 2012 by samran

[simple1]

Wow what a thread, interested to know of all the pro asylum seeker supporters, are you paying significant Australian taxes only to struggle for the benefit of others?

Have you had do something as tough as LEGALLY immigrating your loved ones to Australia.

Vote in a Liberal government or stop patroling the northern waters and the problem will fix itself.

Firstly it's not a discussion on whether you are pro asylum seekers or not; it's about human rights. On the tax front it would be a drop in the ocean of total government expenditure for processing / supporting asylum seekers or refugees. It does annoy me that 7 million Australians are receiving some form of Centrelink payment.

Personally, yes I have gone through the legal process of obtaining PR for family who are now both Australian citizens.

Unfortunately the volume of posts has actually been related to the rights/wrongs of Muslims entering Australia. It seems to me those people who are anti Muslim have zero knowledge of the root causes of what is driving millions of Muslims into refugee camps.

If the Liberals get into power, I agree that action will be taken to change the current situation regards the minority of people arriving by sea, but not the majority who arrive by air.

And if the situation was reversed, and it was Ozzies trying to get into Afghanistan or Pakistan, how far do you think they would get- truthfully?

Completely non nonsensical comparison

[Scott]

An off-topic, baiting post has been removed.

[simple1]

Colin, I believe you are American - so let's hear your thesis on the makeup of the US prison population, with the underlying social and economic drivers; then compare to the European prison population. Your research will no doubt provide the answers to your questions.

A starting point for your research could be the following. "According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population.

[Colin Yai]

Colin, I believe you are American - so let's hear your thesis on the makeup of the US prison population, with the underlying social and economic drivers; then compare to the European prison population. Your research will no doubt provide the answers to your questions.

A starting point for your research could be the following. "According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population.

No I'm English or as the Aussies called me "A pom" some Americans call me a "limey" of which I take no offence whatsoever ,I was born in 1941 (the good old days) and have known poverty like you would not believe ,and by the time I was 17 I was working split 12 hour a day shifts 6 till 6 and 10 to 10 I worked hard and eventually got what I wanted out of life with an 100% clean record . Edited June 19, 2012 by Colin Yai