I do understand the point you are both trying to make but my contention is that if they exercised more then they will be fitter and healthier.

I agree with that, but there are a good number of people in the modern world who are still going to be fat unless they devote most of their time to diet and exercise. For someone who is not wealthy and raising a family that is not very realistic.

So just ignore the evidence that over the LONG TERM, for 99 percent of fat people, diet/exercise programs fail to cure their obesity. If you want to be smug (and totally ignorant) that the reason is all weakness and will power, so be it. It reminds me of rich people's smugness towards the poor.

Where is this evidence JT?

By what you are saying.... Once someone becomes obese they can never go back.

The only widely practiced long term effective cure now is stomach tying.

So just ignore the evidence that over the LONG TERM, for 99 percent of fat people, diet/exercise programs fail to cure their obesity. If you want to be smug (and totally ignorant) that the reason is all weakness and will power, so be it. It reminds me of rich people's smugness towards the poor.

Where is this evidence JT?

By what you are saying.... Once someone becomes obese they can never go back.

The only widely practiced long term effective cure now is stomach tying.

Oh...well now I have seen your evidence..

The only widely practiced long term effective cure now is stomach tying.

The Fat Man in Paradise blog guy who lives on Koh Samui went from 160 kg down to 97 kg with diet & exercise without needing to tie his stomach. I read through some of his stuff and he goes into detail about what he went through to lose that weight. Nothing in there about surgery, but a lot about changing the way he thinks. The power to change is within all of us. You just need to make the commitment.

Check that guy in a year or two. I would bet big money -- FATTER that before. The odds are with me! Google it yourself.

Check that guy in a year or two. I would bet big money -- FATTER that before. The odds are with me! Google it yourself.

So you're one of those guys who won't try something if some stats say you can't? That's how losers think, "I won't even try because the odds are against me!".

I never said losing weight was easy. It's even harder keeping it off. You have to want it badly enough and work hard at it. It takes commitment. But you can't expect to lose weight crying into an empty tub of cake frosting about how the odds are against you.

Gag me with a spoon.

You don't get it, do you?

A medical cure is desperately need.

People do diet, they almost always gain more of it back, and this becomes a lifetime cycle until they are older and their metabolism is shot. Because of the yo yo dieting they end up more unhealthy than if they hadn't "dieted" in the first place. Yes, I support eating as healthy as you can. But I'm not an idiot. What doctors offer now, go home to diet and exercise almost never works in the LONG TERM. Ask doctors if you don't believe me. They know even better. They WANT something better (and less radical than surgery) to offer but they don't have it! I am hopeful science is on the path of a safer, medically effective cure as that really is the ONLY hope for the vast majority of the world's obese.

In the meantime, this dime store MORALISM is seriously nauseating.

I have a Thai friend who came to the UK and started work as a waiter. He has a son who, when he first arrived, was a typical stringy Thai boy. My friend saved his money and bought himself a chippie. A year after they moved in the stringy boy had turned into Mister Chubby. Friend turned his chippie into a Thai restaurant. Mister Chubby is now stringy again - although there's still a faint whiff of chubbiness there.

Gag me with a spoon.

You don't get it, do you?

A medical cure is desperately need.

People do diet, they almost always gain more of it back, and this becomes a lifetime cycle until they are older and their metabolism is shot. Because of the yo yo dieting they end up more unhealthy than if they hadn't "dieted" in the first place. Yes, I support eating as healthy as you can. But I'm not an idiot. What doctors offer now, go home to diet and exercise almost never works in the LONG TERM. Ask doctors if you don't believe me. They know even better. They WANT something better (and less radical than surgery) to offer but they don't have it! I am hopeful science is on the path of a safer, medically effective cure as that really is the ONLY hope for the vast majority of the world's obese.

In the meantime, this dime store MORALISM is seriously nauseating.

I have said already that the cure for gross obesity is counselling and psychological help in the first instance, followed by surgery and further counselling and an exercise and eating program.

All of these things combined DO work.

I wrote a study on the very same thing myself during my time at Charing Cross Hospital in London.

I've met the patients, attended the groups and followed them after surgery. It works for many of them. A few fail as you might expect.

Where did my post go?

Edit: How weird...it is back now.

I have a Thai friend who came to the UK and started work as a waiter. He has a son who, when he first arrived, was a typical stringy Thai boy. My friend saved his money and bought himself a chippie. A year after they moved in the stringy boy had turned into Mister Chubby. Friend turned his chippie into a Thai restaurant. Mister Chubby is now stringy again - although there's still a faint whiff of chubbiness there.

Yep, must be the way his brain was wired at birth!

Check that guy in a year or two. I would bet big money -- FATTER that before. The odds are with me! Google it yourself.

JT your are both right and wrong, this is the third time i have dropped more than 50kg. having said that the reason i gained inthe past was because i allowed myself to stop doing the things i knew i should and began doing the things i knew i shouldnt. i am in my mid 50's now with young children and dont have the time to get fat again, and my life is so much better in my current conditon that it is very hard from to imagine myself reverting. However it is a one day at a time effort. I love to eat and i love food. moderation, smart choices and physical activity will maintain my wieght.

You think you know yourself from your sense of consciousness. But your BODY and GENETICS is doing things you are totally not in control of. Especially genetics. It always wins. Obviously if you live in a famine environment, you won't get fat, but so many modern people live in a flood of food, so their genetic destiny has opportunity to manifest.

You think you know yourself from your sense of consciousness. But your BODY and GENETICS is doing things you are totally not in control of. Especially genetics. It always wins. Obviously if you live in a famine environment, you won't get fat, but so many modern people live in a flood of food, so their genetic destiny has opportunity to manifest.

Its anything but your own fault then?

I agree with IJWT on the addiction angle. That is unfortunate....you don't need to get too fat to have some form of this addiction. I agree the larger someone becomes then they are deeper into the spiral.

But genetics? A fat gene? Please show me some scientific evidence of this please?

There are multiple genetic/environmental/personal body memory history factors. Its very complex. Its SCIENCE. Not dime store morality. Bottom line, doctors have nothing but surgery now to offer for effective long term cures of obese people. Face that truth or not. They push diet and exercise because that's all they've got, but believe me, they know it almost never works in the long run. Why not have an open mind that this morality thing is just an ego trip, and that the answer WILL come from science. Some day people will laugh at the fools who made being fat a morality issue. Another thing, for the majority of obese who will be obese for life, eating as healthy as they can and exercising is of course a good thing and will likely enhance the quality of life. But making them thin for life, mostly NOT.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if within 10 years there is a cheap and safe IMPLANT that fools the stomach the same way a stomach tying procedure does, and changes the FAT BRAIN into a THIN BRAIN for most patients. A pill would be better I guess, but my guess it will still be surgical to start.

There are multiple genetic/environmental/personal body memory history factors. Its very complex. Its SCIENCE. Not dime store morality. Bottom line, doctors have nothing but surgery now to offer for effective long term cures of obese people. Face that truth or not. They push diet and exercise because that's all they've got, but believe me, they know it almost never works in the long run. Why not have an open mind that this morality thing is just an ego trip, and that the answer WILL come from science. Some day people will laugh at the fools who made being fat a morality issue. Another thing, for the majority of obese who will be obese for life, eating as healthy as they can and exercising is of course a good thing and will likely enhance the quality of life. But making them thin for life, mostly NOT.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if within 10 years there is a cheap and safe IMPLANT that fools the stomach the same way a stomach tying procedure does, and changes the FAT BRAIN into a THIN BRAIN for most patients. A pill would be better I guess, but my guess it will still be surgical to start.

But JT....I am still struggling to understand where this "Fat Brain" came from.

Was it there the whole time and only showed itself when people had enough money and opportunity to buy enough junk food to make themselves grossly obese?

It certainly wasn't a generation ago barring a very few individuals.

Mind you in another scary moment I read today that more than 50% of New Yorkers are fat. It was an article to do with the soft drink thing.

There are multiple genetic/environmental/personal body memory history factors. Its very complex. Its SCIENCE. Not dime store morality. Bottom line, doctors have nothing but surgery now to offer for effective long term cures of obese people. Face that truth or not. They push diet and exercise because that's all they've got, but believe me, they know it almost never works in the long run. Why not have an open mind that this morality thing is just an ego trip, and that the answer WILL come from science. Some day people will laugh at the fools who made being fat a morality issue. Another thing, for the majority of obese who will be obese for life, eating as healthy as they can and exercising is of course a good thing and will likely enhance the quality of life. But making them thin for life, mostly NOT.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if within 10 years there is a cheap and safe IMPLANT that fools the stomach the same way a stomach tying procedure does, and changes the FAT BRAIN into a THIN BRAIN for most patients. A pill would be better I guess, but my guess it will still be surgical to start.

It isn't very complex at all, it is in fact very simple.

Listen carefully now JT, I like you, I enjoy your posts very much and have done for some time, you are very erudite, well spoken, and can usually make a stance on a variety of subjects using your wit and intelligence to sway fence sitters to your side, and even bring staunch opponents closer to the fence.

However (there's always an however) .... the post I've quoted is a complete pile of self serving hogwash.

I don't remember ever seeing more than a couple of kids at school who waddled when they walked, in fact I only remember one, as I got older they grew in number, we got a KFC and a McD's, first time I came to Thailand, everyone I saw was slimmer than me, where did they keep the others, in the cellar?

Sorry but this new phenomenon has got everything yet nothing to do with the brain, it's about controlling urges, the entire human race has had those urges since time long forgotten, it isn't new by any means and trying to shift the blame by calling it new is just a sign of weakness.

JT, Bookman and I asked you a while back for your evidence. It never came. Not a single link. Just a few more declarations as if you and you alone knew the facts. Clearly that is what you think, and in that case show us some reliable evidence. We're listening (but not to cheap sneers about dime store morality!).

One thing which I think needs clarifying. There is a whole world of difference between 'diet' and 'a diet'. Diet is lifelong; a diet is generally limited in time. Maccaroni Man (and thanks for joining in, MM, as a self-confessed fat man) has apparently been on a diet, and lost a lot of kilos thereby; good for you, but you know, and we all know, that it has to be a lifelong commitment if you want to keep your weight down.

On a lighter note...here is one for anyone overweight.

Bill: How come you are so fat these days, Dave?

Dave: Cos every time I shag your wife she gives me a biscuit.

I Wondered where all the biscuits had gone!

Sent from my HTC One X using Thaivisa Connect App

Jingthing - from your constant reiteration that diets don't work, I assume you've tried them and failed?

Also the exercise thing - I assume you've tried and failed?

Are you, as I also assume, a touch on the obese side of overweight?

My own personal history is that as a child during WWII you could count not only my ribs, but the knobs of my spine. In England most of us were like that. When I was seven I went to the local grammar school - the last year of fee-paying, as the Conservative minister - R A Butler - brought in the education act that introduced the 11+ entrance exam. Thus for three years I was the youngest pupil in the school, and had more than my fair share of bullying. As we were a rugby-playing school I learnt to take care of myself on the playing fields quite quickly, which also transferred to the quads (playgrounds). But there was not a fat kid in the school that I can remember. I grew larger as I went through my teenage years - food was more plentiful, more varied. I went into National Service at eighteen (Royal Air Force) played representative rugby and squash, served on air-sea rescue helicopters. As well as rugby in the winter, my summers were spent on competitive cycling and after leaving the RAF I was playing rugby for Wasps (a major RFU team) and continued bike riding through my tertiary studies and after. All this time I was 1m80 and 75kgs. I started working abroad when I was about 40 years old, and maintained my weight and fitness through the next several years, with swimming, diving, windsurfing and hashing being the main leisure activities.

In the eighties I was in Libya for the decade and food was a problem - although I kept up the fitness routines, we were fed a lot of rice and fried food, and I worked long hours. Also, working mostly with Swedes and Germans, there was a lot of alcohol around. My weight went up to around 90 kgs. BAD DIET!!

I lost most of that when I went to Hong Kong and could both maintain my exercise and choose my own food.

A few years later I was in Thailand building Suvarnabhumi airport. Poor diet, less exercise and a lot of beer pushed me up to 95 kgs in two years or so. I left LOS and went to the UAE, where I could again choose my food, re-establish my exercise routines and avoid excessive amounts of alcohol.

I am now semi-retired, 75 years old, 80kg and still jog, cycle, walk to my destinations.

I can definitely state that in my case it is diet and exercise that keeps my body and mind in good working order, and likely to remain that way for another forty years.

I am now semi-retired, 75 years old, 80kg and still jog, cycle, walk to my destinations.

I can definitely state that in my case it is diet and exercise that keeps my body and mind in good working order, and likely to remain that way for another forty years.

Another forty years!!

I admire your optimism!

I am now semi-retired, 75 years old, 80kg and still jog, cycle, walk to my destinations.

I can definitely state that in my case it is diet and exercise that keeps my body and mind in good working order, and likely to remain that way for another forty years.

Another forty years!!

I admire your optimism!

Why not? My mother lived to 101 and I'm certainly fitter than she was at 75.

(And I certainly intend to see my 3 1/2 year old daughter through college)

That is a lot to live for HB....I wish you many more happy years of fitness!

Now its time for a swim...

I am now semi-retired, 75 years old, 80kg and still jog, cycle, walk to my destinations.

I can definitely state that in my case it is diet and exercise that keeps my body and mind in good working order, and likely to remain that way for another forty years.

Another forty years!!

I admire your optimism!

Why not? My mother lived to 101 and I'm certainly fitter than she was at 75.

(And I certainly intend to see my 3 1/2 year old daughter through college)

115 years of age is an admirable goal.

For all those with weight issues...

My grandmother lived to 97 and she was vastly overweight for the last 50 of those years.

Anecdotal personal stories are MEANINGLESS! So your Auntie Fanny smoked ten packs of ciggies a day and lived to age 120. Doesn't mean a thing about ciggie safety.

In their quest to find drugs to curb obesity, scientists have had about as much success as long-term dieters who want to stay thin -- which is to say, very little. In fact, the last year has been so bleak on the research front that some experts are questioning whether a long-desired safe and effective diet pill can be found.

Finally, most people can't maintain significant weight loss for more than a year or two through diet and exercise alone in part because the body kicks into a starvation mode and begins to conserve energy. Getting around this thorny problem has become one of the most significant scientific questions in the field -- and may possibly, say obesity specialists, be a place where diet pills could help.

Read more: http://azdailysun.co...l#ixzz1wdckSJ7I

Here's a dated link but very relevant to this discussion. Stop blaming the victims! It's cruel and unfair.

A Unique Disease -- the Body Undermines the Cure

What we do know is that "Obesity is the one disease where your body fights the cure," says Dr. Michael Rosenbaum, a Columbia University researcher working on an National Institutes of Health-funded study on weight control.

By and large, the body is programmed to help you heal. But not in this case. People think that dieting is a matter of choice, says Arthur Frank, medical director of the George Washington University Weight Management Program. But in fact, losing weight requires overcoming powerful brain signals that are working against you.

http://www.alternet.org/health/108513?page=entire

Anecdotal personal stories are MEANINGLESS! So your Auntie Fanny smoked ten packs of ciggies a day and lived to age 120. Doesn't mean a thing about ciggie safety.

In their quest to find drugs to curb obesity, scientists have had about as much success as long-term dieters who want to stay thin -- which is to say, very little. In fact, the last year has been so bleak on the research front that some experts are questioning whether a long-desired safe and effective diet pill can be found.

Finally, most people can't maintain significant weight loss for more than a year or two through diet and exercise alone in part because the body kicks into a starvation mode and begins to conserve energy. Getting around this thorny problem has become one of the most significant scientific questions in the field -- and may possibly, say obesity specialists, be a place where diet pills could help.

Read more: http://azdailysun.co...l#ixzz1wdckSJ7I

Well not so meaningless to the person telling the story.

Just think, had my Grandmother lost some significant weight she could have made 110 years old

Maybe. Statistics are about large masses of people. Individual variance is very normal.

Finally, most people can't maintain significant weight loss for more than a year or two through diet and exercise alone in part because the body kicks into a starvation mode and begins to conserve energy.

So proper diet and exercise makes the body go into starvation mode?

How ever in the world has the human race survived all these thousands of years without stomach surgery?

Obviously because food was much harder to come by in past times and people had to work their tushes off to get it! (Hint: most people never got fat in the first place!) Once you're fat especially if you have genetic issues, especially if you start in childhood, most people are stuck with that for LIFE (even if as many do they lose and gain 50 times). Most fat children become fat adults. These are not all "weak" people. Have some bloody compassion. Also of course many of the foods easily available and cheap in modern times are not healthy foods. I am not discounting the impact of our obesogenic (1000 baht word!) environment. But some people's genetics (science says about 40 percent) prove to be especially punishing to some people and easier on others. The truth is the modern obesity is a very complicated phenom with NO EASY SOLUTIONS. There are many causative factors and each individual case is different. The tried and true, go home and exercise advice has proven extremely ineffective in the LONG RUN and lifetime cures this way are RARE. No, if you think it is ONLY about energy in vs. energy out you are living in the dark ages on this topic. I just can't handle the obnoxious SMUGNESS of so many people who don't have a clue about the real complexity of the obesity disease.