Tiger "temple Of Lies" - A Follow Up Report...

[wilcopops]

Here's a further report damning the Temple at Kanchanaburi.

Despite having no conservation value at all and "advice" from the authorities this place continues too breed Tigers with no proper records - and rakes in money from an unsuspecting public.

[lemonjelly]

^ you have a link on that ?.... or have mods removed it ?

[wilcopops]

http://www.careforthewild.com/blog/temple-of-lies/

Sorry,must have made a mistake with the link

Edited March 15, 2013 by wilcopops

[tw25rw]

CWI again. They'll use this to raise a load of money, some of which might go to help animals.

[lemonjelly]

CWI again. They'll use this to raise a load of money, some of which might go to help animals.

probably peanuts compared to what that dodgy temple is making from the exploitation of the tigers.... rest assured the abbot doesn't have to use public transport. I think the animals should be confiscated and relocated to a better regulated zoo/safari park..... preferably in a developed country.

Edited March 16, 2013 by lemonjelly

[Judo Chop]

I'd be ok with the whole concept if they were honest with people and called it what it really is, a Zoo.

That place is nothing more than a money making business charading as a saviour for tigers.

It's in the TT's interest to ensure in-breeding occurs so they have a steady stream of replacement tigers as the older ones are sold off. That way no one really notices.

[55Jay]

You can't eat love. Money Nummer 1.

[wilcopops]

CWI again. They'll use this to raise a load of money, some of which might go to help animals.

I presume you didn't read the article and therefore haven't seen the estimate of the temple's income?

[tw25rw]

CWI again. They'll use this to raise a load of money, some of which might go to help animals.

I presume you didn't read the article and therefore haven't seen the estimate of the temple's income?

I don't necessarily doubt it, but that's not my point. I don't believe this 'charity' do any real charity work or that their reports are any more than feedback from tourists.

[Sandman77]

Look it on google many animal activist was not allowed to make a documentary!

Visit this place 3 year ago, complete overcrowd by mass tourism , and sure or not the stuff give the tiger some medicine that the animals more relaxed!

Wwf report the tiger will disappears in 20 year in Thailand...

[wilcopops]

CWI again. They'll use this to raise a load of money, some of which might go to help animals.

I presume you didn't read the article and therefore haven't seen the estimate of the temple's income?

I don't necessarily doubt it, but that's not my point. I don't believe this 'charity' do any real charity work or that their reports are any more than feedback from tourists.

I really think that before you make comments like that you should read their first report.

Edited March 16, 2013 by wilcopops

[tw25rw]

CWI again. They'll use this to raise a load of money, some of which might go to help animals.

I presume you didn't read the article and therefore haven't seen the estimate of the temple's income?

I don't necessarily doubt it, but that's not my point. I don't believe this 'charity' do any real charity work or that their reports are any more than feedback from tourists.

I really think that before you make comments like that you should read their first report.

You mean the one 5 years ago? I did and said similar things on here then.

[transam]

Big cat, small cat, they are all the same. Do the same stuff. Cats are killers, BUT have a great regard for us humans IF your smell is right. What ever the cat, it wants to eat and sleep, if it has no food from us it will kill something, if it has food ''perhaps'' all will be OK.

[wilcopops]

TW - Yes - I'd say it's pretty obvious you haven't read it or you wouldn't think it was made by tourists.

however if you did, do you have a particular point in the report you take issue with.

I've noticed that those who "poo-poo" the report singularly unforthcoming with any particular factual criticisms themselves.

[wilcopops]

Big cat, small cat, they are all the same. Do the same stuff. Cats are killers, BUT have a great regard for us humans IF your smell is right. What ever the cat, it wants to eat and sleep, if it has no food from us it will kill something, if it has food ''perhaps'' all will be OK.

TA - you really haven't got a clue about animals .big cats or conservation - why bother posting?

[transam]

Big cat, small cat, they are all the same. Do the same stuff. Cats are killers, BUT have a great regard for us humans IF your smell is right. What ever the cat, it wants to eat and sleep, if it has no food from us it will kill something, if it has food ''perhaps'' all will be OK.

TA - you really haven't got a clue about animals .big cats or conservation - why bother posting?

You think, l have six cats of which one is wild. We interact and l learn. I would have no fear going to this Temple to try and feel stuff. Better these big cats are alive and not a rug for a rich guy. Please don't be so pompous until you know folk personally eh.

[tw25rw]

TW - Yes - I'd say it's pretty obvious you haven't read it or you wouldn't think it was made by tourists.

however if you did, do you have a particular point in the report you take issue with.

I've noticed that those who "poo-poo" the report singularly unforthcoming with any particular factual criticisms themselves.

I haven't read it all. Just skimmed it. The quality of the source undermines it.

[wilcopops]

TW - Yes - I'd say it's pretty obvious you haven't read it or you wouldn't think it was made by tourists.

however if you did, do you have a particular point in the report you take issue with.

I've noticed that those who "poo-poo" the report singularly unforthcoming with any particular factual criticisms themselves.

I haven't read it all. Just skimmed it. The quality of the source undermines it.

"Quality of the source"?

that would be the tiger temple

Please if you are going to comment on a document the least you could do is read it. (PS - there is a test)

Edited March 16, 2013 by wilcopops

[tw25rw]

TW - Yes - I'd say it's pretty obvious you haven't read it or you wouldn't think it was made by tourists.

however if you did, do you have a particular point in the report you take issue with.

I've noticed that those who "poo-poo" the report singularly unforthcoming with any particular factual criticisms themselves.

I haven't read it all. Just skimmed it. The quality of the source undermines it.

"Quality of the source"?

that would be the tiger temple

Please if you are going to comment on a document the least you could do is read it. (PS - there is a test)

The source is a farmhouse in Sussex with a swimming pool and some luxury cars parked in the driveway..

[wilcopops]

TW - Yes - I'd say it's pretty obvious you haven't read it or you wouldn't think it was made by tourists.

however if you did, do you have a particular point in the report you take issue with.

I've noticed that those who "poo-poo" the report singularly unforthcoming with any particular factual criticisms themselves.

I haven't read it all. Just skimmed it. The quality of the source undermines it.

"Quality of the source"?

that would be the tiger temple

Please if you are going to comment on a document the least you could do is read it. (PS - there is a test)

The source is a farmhouse in Sussex with a swimming pool and some luxury cars parked in the driveway..

Sorry but if you don't even know what "source" means then I can't see how you can have a meaningful discussion.

however I'll ask again - as a supporter of the temple can you please come up with one valid argument against the criticisms levelled at the place

Edited March 16, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

to help you along here are the references -

REFERENCES

www.tigertemple.org/Eng/index.php
http://www.openworldthailand.com/index.php?lay=show&ac=photo_view&event_id=2240

Worldwide Fund for Nature, 2008 Tigers
http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_do/species/about_species/species_factsheets/tigers/index.cfm

Seidensticker J, Jackson P, Christie S 1999. Riding the Tiger: Tiger Conservation in Human-Dominated Landscapes.
Cambridge University Press.

Karanth KU, Nichols JD, Kumar NS, Link WA, Hines JE 2004 Tigers and their prey: Predicting carnivore densities from prey
abundance Proceedings Of The National Academy Of Sciences ff the USA, 101 (14): 4854-4858.

Clubb R, Mason GJ 2007 Natural behavioural biology as a risk factor in carnivore welfare: How analysing species differences
could help zoos improve enclosures. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 102: 303-328

Big Cat Rescue 2008 http://www.bigcatrescue.org/tiger.htm

World Association of Zoos and Aquaria 2008 http://www.waza.org/virtualzoo/factsheet.php?id=112-007-002-
005&view=Cats.

Management Authority of Thailand 2007 Conservation of and trade in tigers: Report submitted by Thailand for the 14th
meeting of the Conference of the Parties. CITES CoP14 Doc.52 Annex 6

IUCN Cat Specialist Group 1996 Species Accounts - Tigers. http://lynx.uio.no/lynx/catsgportal/cat-website/catfolk/tiger-
02.htm

O'Brien SJ, Luo SL, Kim JH, Johnson WE 2005 Molecular Genetic Analysis Reveals Six Living Subspecies of Tiger, Pathera
tigris. Cat News 42, 6-8. Spring 2005

Tiger Temple Website 2008. http://www.tigertemple.org/content/content_detail_e.php?Category=Construction&No=245
Sunquist F 2002 Wild Cats of the World. University of Chicago Press

Bush M, Phillips L, Montali R, Dierenfeld E, Hakala S, Traylor-Holzer K, Binczik G, Tilson R 2002 Birth, Growth and Rearing of
Tiger Cubs. in Management and Conservation of Captive Tigers Panthera tigris. Tilson R, Brady G, Traylor-Holzer K, Armstrong
D (eds). American Zoo and Aquarium Association

Fraser AF, Broom DM 1990 Farm Animal Behaviour and Welfare. Bailliere Tindall, London

Hinde RA 1970 Animal Behaviour. A synthesis of ethological and comparative psychology. 2nd edition, McGraw Hill.

Hofer MA 1981 Parental contributions to the development of their offspring. in Parental care in mammals Gubernick DJ,
Klopfer PH (eds) pp. 77-105. New York: Plenum Press.

Dierenfield ES 1987 Nutritional Considerations in Captive Tiger Management. In Tigers of the World Tilson R, Seal US (eds)
Noyes Publications, Park Ridge NJ pp 149 - 160, 1987

Thanawongnuwech R, Amonsin A, Tantilertcharoen R, Damrongwatanapokin S, Theamboonlers A, Payungporn S,
Nanthapornphiphat K, Ratanamungklanon S, Tunak E, Songserm T, Vivatthanavanich V, Lekdumrongsak T,
Kesdangsakonwut S, Tunhikorn S, Poovorawan Y Probable tiger-to-tiger transmission of avian influenza H5N1. Emerging
Infectious Diseases, 2005 11, 5 - 7 . http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol11no05/05-0007.htm

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1312512
http://www.travelfish.org/board/post/thailand/616_Tiger-Temple/0
www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5d7wEAZZb4
http://www.travellerspoint.com/forum.cfm?thread=33274&start=11
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/message.jspa?messageID=11777782
http://www.tigertemple.org/Eng/good_q.htm

Schiller HJ, Cullinane DC, Sawyer MD, Zietlow SP 2007 Captive tiger attack: Case report and review of the literature.
American Surgeon 73 516-519

Cohle SD, Harlan CW, Harlan G 1990 Fatal Big Cat Attacks. American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology 11 208-2

[tw25rw]

I've not said I'm a supporter of the temple. I'm saying that the source of this report, the source not the subject, is not a legitimate animal welfare charity. They collect money through school fundraisers etc and probably hand over enough money to keep their legal status as a charity.

What have WSPA or WWF had to say about it?

[wilcopops]

Your claims about CFW are completely unsubstantiated.

BUT

how do they affect the arguments against the temple? not one iota

[wilcopops]

The International Tiger Coalition is an alliance of 39 organisations and represents some of the world’s foremost tiger
scientists, conservation groups, animal welfare advocates, traditional Chinese medicine specialists, and zoos. We are
united by a deep commitment to wild tigers and their habitats. On behalf of millions of members and constituents, the
members named below to you today to express our concern about the captive breeding and trans-border movements of
tigers by the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi and about the facility’s claims to support tiger conservation.

The Following Members of the International Tiger Coalition

American
College
of
Traditional
Chinese
Medicine
*
AMUR
*
Animal
Welfare
Institute
*

Animals
Asia
Foundation
*
Association
of
Zoos
&
Aquariums
*
Big
Cat
Rescue
*

Born
Free
Foundation
*
Born
Free
USA
*
British
and
Irish
Association
of
Zoos
&
Aquariums
*

Care
for
the
Wild
International
*
Conservation
International
*

Council
of
Colleges
of
Acupuncture
and
Oriental
Medicine
*
David
Shepherd
Wildlife
Foundation
*

Education
for
Nature
−
Vietnam

*
Environmental
Investigation
Agency
*
Global
Tiger
Patrol
*

Humane
Society
International
*
Humane
Society
of
the
United
States
*

International
Fund
for
Animal
Welfare
*
International
Trust
for
Nature
Conservation
*

PeunPa
*
Phoenix
Fund
*
Save
The
Tiger
Fund
*
Species
Survival
Network
*

The
Fund
For
The
Tiger
*
Tigris
Foundation
*
Tour
Operators
for
Tigers
*

TRAFFIC
*
21st
Century
Tiger
*
WildAid
*
Wildlife
Alliance
*
Wildlife
Conservation
Nepal
*



Wildlife
Trust
of
India
*
Wildlife
Watch
Group
*


World
Association
of
Zoos
&
Aquariums
*
World
Society
for
the
Protection
of
Animals
*

World
Wildlife
Fund
*
Zoological
Society
of
London

Edited March 16, 2013 by wilcopops

[tw25rw]

Your claims about CFW are completely unsubstantiated.

BUT

how do they affect the arguments against the temple? not one iota

No they aren't. I just haven't gone into detail here. But if you want to sponsor a wild dolphin, you know where to do it.

They affect the arguments because a report put together from stitched together tourist feedback has to be of dubious veracity.

[tw25rw]

The International Tiger Coalition is an alliance of 39 organisations and represents some of the world’s foremost tiger

scientists, conservation groups, animal welfare advocates, traditional Chinese medicine specialists, and zoos. We are

united by a deep commitment to wild tigers and their habitats. On behalf of millions of members and constituents, the

members named below to you today to express our concern about the captive breeding and trans-border movements of

tigers by the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi and about the facility’s claims to support tiger conservation.

The Following Members of the International Tiger Coalition

American
College
of
Traditional
Chinese
Medicine
*
AMUR
*
Animal
Welfare
Institute
*


Animals
Asia
Foundation
*
Association
of
Zoos
&
Aquariums
*
Big
Cat
Rescue
*


Born
Free
Foundation
*
Born
Free
USA
*
British
and
Irish
Association
of
Zoos
&
Aquariums
*


Care
for
the
Wild
International
*
Conservation
International
*


Council
of
Colleges
of
Acupuncture
and
Oriental
Medicine
*
David
Shepherd
Wildlife
Foundation
*


Education
for
Nature
−
Vietnam

*
Environmental
Investigation
Agency
*
Global
Tiger
Patrol
*


Humane
Society
International
*
Humane
Society
of
the
United
States
*


International
Fund
for
Animal
Welfare
*
International
Trust
for
Nature
Conservation
*


PeunPa
*
Phoenix
Fund
*
Save
The
Tiger
Fund
*
Species
Survival
Network
*


The
Fund
For
The
Tiger
*
Tigris
Foundation
*
Tour
Operators
for
Tigers
*


TRAFFIC
*
21st
Century
Tiger
*
WildAid
*
Wildlife
Alliance
*
Wildlife
Conservation
Nepal
*



Wildlife
Trust
of
India
*
Wildlife
Watch
Group
*



World
Association
of
Zoos
&
Aquariums
*
World
Society
for
the
Protection
of
Animals
*


World
Wildlife
Fund
*
Zoological
Society
of
London

This is a more plausible source, though I could pick holes in the credentials of some of these other 'members'.

I went to the temple in 2006 and currently have a photo as my avatar. It was an experience to have my photo taken with tigers, but that's not to say there aren't obvious welfare concerns.

Unfortunately, the alternative to captivity is basically the destruction of the animals. Their remaining environment is too denuded to support the reintroduction of tigers in number and the animals aren't equipped to survive in the wild.

[Marlow999]

Big cat, small cat, they are all the same. Do the same stuff. Cats are killers, BUT have a great regard for us humans IF your smell is right. What ever the cat, it wants to eat and sleep, if it has no food from us it will kill something, if it has food ''perhaps'' all will be OK.

TA - you really haven't got a clue about animals .big cats or conservation - why bother posting?

....because he's entitled to.

[tw25rw]

So, how are we to conserve tigers? I don't see any practical way that doesn't involve making money from them. As an animal lover, and a cat lover in particular, I'd love to see them secure. But I just don't see a long term future for them.

[beejoir]

So, how are we to conserve tigers? I don't see any practical way that doesn't involve making money from them. As an animal lover, and a cat lover in particular, I'd love to see them secure. But I just don't see a long term future for them.

Are you TOTALLY bat 5h1t crazy???

This temple BREEDS Tigers, sells the illegally, drugs them and uses them for 100% profit, theres ZERO conservation here!

Actually, its just pure Animal crulety.

[Sandman77]

Is it possible to buy a small tiger in the zoo for everybody?

I walk little bit outside the temple I don't see any monks take care the tigers like the media reports! The sour rounding looks ugly when you walk around!

And after the shield come you enter wild life area, I turn around!

Making a picture for 1000 bath with the head in the open tiger month no thank you!

Wirhin 20 years all the tiger temple will be closed in Thailand!

When population off tiger disappears like the forecast by Wwf!

A buffalo temple, where tourist can ride on a buffalo should be then the more attractive for all!