French Visa Application For Our Honeymoon Rejected

[c view]

I'm reaching out to any members that may be able to provide feedback on the French Visa application process for Thai's

My Thai girlfirend and I are about to be married next week and booked business class flights and accomodation to Monaco for our honeymoon. I'd consider ourselves reasonably wealthy and displayed bank accounts, travel plans and lots of other supporting documentation during the application process.

I am shocked that it has been refused as we have applied for an Australian visa 4 times now and never had an issue.

Considering this travel was for our honeymoon it is so upsetting to receive the letter of refusal stating - 'The purpose and conditions of the intended stay are not reliable'

I have written a letter to the French consulate to appeal but fear this shall take months and our intended travel is only 3 weeks away.

Has anybody experienced this ?

Any reccommended course of action ??

[theoldgit]

I don't know what the appeal process is for a Schengen Visa, or indeed if you can appeal.

Did the refusal say anything more than"'The purpose and conditions of the intended stay are not reliable"?

Did you supply all doccuments required, flights, accomodation, insurance, finance etc?

What were the reasons given for return to Thailand?

What are your nationalities?

You might be better re-applying than appealing.

[c view]

I don't know what the appeal process is for a Schengen Visa, or indeed if you can appeal.

Did the refusal say anything more than"'The purpose and conditions of the intended stay are not reliable"?

Did you supply all doccuments required, flights, accomodation, insurance, finance etc?

What were the reasons given for return to Thailand?

What are your nationalities?

You might be better re-applying than appealing.

Thanks for the response - yes the letter said the "'The purpose and conditions of the intended stay are not reliable"...

Yes supplied return business class flights, a stamped & signed letter from the hotel confirming the accommodation, car rental confirmation, bank accounts and lots of other documentation.

I am dual nationality Australian / British and she is Thai..

Considering the cost to fly to Bangkok, accommodation and the non refundable application fee's I'm not going to re-apply.

I'm just hoping that somebody with a connection to the French Embassy shall pick up on the discussion and query the decision making process itself..

[AloisAmrein]

Just apply in an embassy of another Schengen country, e. g. Germany or Switzerland or Italy. I am sure that you will get the visa there, and they give you a Schengen visa, which is valid for France too. The sister of my wife did so, and no problems.

[Seekingasylum]

The French are a law onto themselves. I should make alternative plans and go somewhere more interesting. Monaco is simply an ugly housing estate polluted in diesel fumes with an awful lot of ostentation.

Istanbul would be a far better venue and combined with a week in Kas or Kalkan on board a luxury gulet celebrating your wedlock in fine style might be a more memorable marker of the event - Thai no longer require visas for Turkey.

France is really quite overrated. It's their loss and you might wish to write to them upon your return from whichever honeymoon you elect enclosing photos of your travel etc and offering them the opinion their visa section is staffed by les anes qui mange le merde.

[Arkady]

You didn't mention if she had a job or not. If not, they might have decided she hadn't a good enough reason to return, even though that would be silly, if you can demonstrate a real relationship and show assets etc.

Once you are legally married, they won't be able to refuse her a Schengen visa as the wife of an EU national and travelling together, due to the EU's freedom of movement rules. They aren't allowed to ask about her work or bank accounts and stuff or even your itinerary and travel tickets. Refusal is only permitted if the applicant is considered a threat to national security. They also have to allow you to apply direct to the embassy, not the outsourced agent, have to offer an expedited process and can't charge a visa fee. Nevertheless the German and Swiss embassies did their best to deny these rights to my wife and the German one was particularly unpleasant and spiteful but both were largely unsuccessful after I insisted and we got the visas. I have had good experiences with the Greek and Norwegian embassies even prior to marriage and I have heard that the Portuguese are friendly too. Most people say the French and Italian embassies suck for visas but I have never tried.

Nothing much in Monaco except the casino, a marina and a lot of concrete and overpriced hotels. Used to have to go there on business and looked for excuses not to go after the first couple of trips.

[beano2274]

last year the German embassy were a bunch of idiots when my wife applied, they did not even know the rule about EU Citizens, until I sent emails to their bosses in Germany, during this time the French Embassy were more than happy to give my wife a visa as our stay would have been exactly split between the two countries, in the end she got a German visa but only valid for a few weeks.

This time we planned to go to Italy, my wife went to the Italian Embassy, said about wife of EU citizen (I had also previously spoken to the boss in there), and viola a 1year visa free.

[ccarbaugh]

Applied to the Italian Embassy for a 2 week vacation for my Thai GF. (I'm American.) We'll find out Friday, May 10th, if it's approved or not. (Supplied all paperwork!) We've already paid the airfare, car rental and reserved the hotel rooms, so it would be a tremendous expense for nothing if it is declined.

[USNret]

I'm puzzled that 2 people have bought tickets before their wife/gf got a visa. That seems astonishingly reckless to me. What's the logic there?

[c view]

I'm puzzled that 2 people have bought tickets before their wife/gf got a visa. That seems astonishingly reckless to me. What's the logic there?

Yes I agree however it is part of the Visa application requirements.

I was hoping for some constructive comments to appeal the process, there is no point questioning the logic if you dont know the system yourself..

[c view]

Applied to the Italian Embassy for a 2 week vacation for my Thai GF. (I'm American.) We'll find out Friday, May 10th, if it's approved or not. (Supplied all paperwork!) We've already paid the airfare, car rental and reserved the hotel rooms, so it would be a tremendous expense for nothing if it is declined.

Wishing you the best of luck with this, it is a massively depressing experience to have the visa refused after outlaying such expense.. especially when the French Embassy make no effort to contact the applicant and discuss any concerns.

I am now attempting to contact the embassies direct, they seem somewhat helpful providing contacts but we'll see what happens.

[c view]

Once you are legally married, they won't be able to refuse her a Schengen visa as the wife of an EU national and travelling together, due to the EU's freedom of movement rules. They aren't allowed to ask about her work or bank accounts and stuff or even your itinerary and travel tickets.

Arkady, this is really interesting comment - can you point me to anywhere on the internet or a contact to discuss this with ? Although I am Australian I also hold a British passport so according to your statement perhaps this is an avenue to follow ?

many thanks

[JLCrab]

Bermuda is a great honeymoon location -- no visa required for Thai citizen up to 6 month stay.

[7by7]

Once you are legally married, they won't be able to refuse her a Schengen visa as the wife of an EU national and travelling together, due to the EU's freedom of movement rules. They aren't allowed to ask about her work or bank accounts and stuff or even your itinerary and travel tickets.

Arkady, this is really interesting comment - can you point me to anywhere on the internet or a contact to discuss this with ? Although I am Australian I also hold a British passport so according to your statement perhaps this is an avenue to follow ?

many thanks

See Directive 2004/38/EC.

What is covered?

•No-cost, easy, fast issue of visas

•Easy right to stay for up to 90 days if so desired. EU citizens and their non-EU family can work if desired in this period, or play.

•Easy right to stay longer if the EU citizen is working, is a student, or has medical insurance and is self sufficient

•Permanent residence after 5 years

•Right of facilitated entry if passports have been lost, or if a visa has not been obtained

•Applications can only be turned down in three limited circumstances (public health, public policy, national security), or when a marriage is determined to be fraudulent. Reasons for refusal must be spelled out in detail and there is a right of appeal.

•EU citizens and their non-EU family members can not legally be treated differently than citizens of their EU host country

However, when you applied your wife was not your wife and so not covered by the directive, so maybe try again after the marriage?

Note that it does say "Right of facilitated entry if passports have been lost, or if a visa has not been obtained."

What this means is that if she turns up at a port of entry without a visa, provided she can satisfy immigration that she is your wife and she is traveling with or to join you then they must allow her entry.

The difficulty is in her getting to a port of entry!

Many airline check ins are unaware of this, and so may not allow her to board if she does not have a visa.

Of course, you should use your British passport throughout in her visa application and her entry.

[bobrussell]

I would tend to agree that Monaco is unattractive. It is a bit of a hole in the ground and looks like a high rise estate! Very nice around Monaco (Nice etc)but Monaco itself is dreary and has a Policeman on every corner!

I am sure the tower blocks are pure luxury inside but the average tourist is unlikely to see this. Not overly friendly either in my experience.

Go to Italy instead and have a really good honeymoon!

I wonder if the refusal was on the technicality that you are not married yet? Seems a bit bonkers to me!

Edited May 8, 2013 by bobrussell

[steve down under]

I thought Monaco was a principality that is self governing so why would you need to apply for a french visa ?? and also as a brit you dont need a visa for anywhere in the EU !

[7by7]

Monaco doesn't actually issue visas; those that require one must obtain a French one.

Brits don't need a visa for France or other EU countries; Thais do and it's his Thai fiancée that applied and was refused.

[Arkady]

Once you are legally married, they won't be able to refuse her a Schengen visa as the wife of an EU national and travelling together, due to the EU's freedom of movement rules. They aren't allowed to ask about her work or bank accounts and stuff or even your itinerary and travel tickets.

Arkady, this is really interesting comment - can you point me to anywhere on the internet or a contact to discuss this with ? Although I am Australian I also hold a British passport so according to your statement perhaps this is an avenue to follow ?

many thanks

See Directive 2004/38/EC.

>>What is covered?

•No-cost, easy, fast issue of visas

•Easy right to stay for up to 90 days if so desired. EU citizens and their non-EU family can work if desired in this period, or play.

•Easy right to stay longer if the EU citizen is working, is a student, or has medical insurance and is self sufficient

•Permanent residence after 5 years

•Right of facilitated entry if passports have been lost, or if a visa has not been obtained

•Applications can only be turned down in three limited circumstances (public health, public policy, national security), or when a marriage is determined to be fraudulent. Reasons for refusal must be spelled out in detail and there is a right of appeal.

•EU citizens and their non-EU family members can not legally be treated differently than citizens of their EU host country

However, when you applied your wife was not your wife and so not covered by the directive, so maybe try again after the marriage?

Note that it does say "Right of facilitated entry if passports have been lost, or if a visa has not been obtained."

What this means is that if she turns up at a port of entry without a visa, provided she can satisfy immigration that she is your wife and she is traveling with or to join you then they must allow her entry.

The difficulty is in her getting to a port of entry!

Many airline check ins are unaware of this, and so may not allow her to board if she does not have a visa.

Of course, you should use your British passport throughout in her visa application and her entry.

When you try to use this rule to get a Schengen visa from an embassy in Bangkok, you will find most of the buggers deliberately try to hide the information in their websites that you can go direct to the embassy without an appointment free of charge, or may not have it there at all. Their intention is clearly to try to get spouses of EU citizens to apply at the outsourcing company without exercising their freedom of movement rights, making it easier for embassies to reject them and they can also charge a fee.

The Swiss have come up with the most imaginative wrinkle of all. When you present your Thai marriage certificate with a translation duly notarised by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs the smarmy little shi*ts then force you to get the MoF's notarisation further notarised by your embassy for another Bt 3,000 or so. A little Swiss jerk comes out of the back office with a prepared speech claiming the further notarisation is a requirement of Schengen Treaty regulations which it clearly is not and no other EU embassy asks for it. My wife was also subjected to a harangue in the Swiss Embassy by a Thai bitch who obviously thought she was a wardress in a women's prison, demanding that she present a police record of good behaviour, otherwise she will never go to Switzerland. I had to inform the bitch that was not something she could ask for for a tourist visa and she backed down.

The German embassy employs a similar Thai female concentration camp guard wannabe to deal with Thai wives of EU citizens, who are obviously all prostitutes in her eyes, having the temerity to exercise freedom of movement rights. I had to send that one off to consult her supervisor to refresh her knowledge of EU law. She came back looking rather disgruntled a few minutes later and withdrew her inadmissable questions.

I can't understand what EU embassies think they achieve by this disgusting behaviour and the deliberate attempts to violate the treaty their governments have signed. If their countries don't like the law, they should resign from the EU and build walls around themselves and be happy with drastically reduced tourist revenues.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Arkady

[JLCrab]

What a visa mess -- why not honeymoon in Bermuda? They did:

Edited May 10, 2013 by JLCrab

[Tomtomtom69]

I'm puzzled that 2 people have bought tickets before their wife/gf got a visa. That seems astonishingly reckless to me. What's the logic there?

Yes I agree however it is part of the Visa application requirements.

I was hoping for some constructive comments to appeal the process, there is no point questioning the logic if you dont know the system yourself..

Strange that the EU would have such a requirement - Australia for example specifically states that "no tickets should be purchased before a visa is granted".

Granted there is still a way of getting around spending tons of money on flight tickets and hotel bookings. Book with Thai Airways International for a random date sometime in the future - select the "pay later" option. Your booking is then made, completely valid and you can print it out to show the embassy/consulate but you haven't paid a cent (yet). In case you don't get a visa the system automatically cancels your booking and you won't lose even one Baht. Unfortunately many other airlines are too stingy to allow this - once you book you need to make at least a deposit (for example with Lufthansa). However, Thai Airways, with many flights to Europe only forces you to pay immediately if you book within 72 hours (or sometimes 1 week or so) before departure so if you plan well, book for a random date in the future and then this one extra worry is eliminated. For hotels, book refundable hotels well into the future so you can cancel them without incurring penalties. Note that on Agoda, I think many hotels will only issue a full refund if you cancel at least 1 week before arrival. Otherwise if you stay at the same property for say 10 nights but only cancel within 1 day of arrival, you'll probably be charged the first night but can get the rest back as a refund. Even better than this is to print out emailed bookings, which don't require any upfront deposit. Make sure this is clarified with the hotel first to be sure, but if you can't book online, usually email bookings or phone bookings (without a deposit) seems to be OK.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Tomtomtom69

[BarryM]

My Thai friend was just refused a french visa. We had planned sailing our boat (jointly owned 45' yacht) around Brittany coast.

He has a two year multi uk visa, ten year USA visa plus two properties in Thailand and money

We are now sailing in Turkey instead.

I think it's because the French embassy are basically <deleted>. I had the misfortune to join a very senior french consular official at a lunch in the 1980s. He got pissed and delighted in telling me about all the 8 year old boys he had "seduit" in Manila. Typical of the breed still, j'imagine.

[c view]

Great news, got a visa !!

Took a lot of effort though . After contacting several embassies the Italians were the only ones that responding offering support.

The 90 day, multi entry family visa was issued in one day free of charge but we had to produce all the paperwork (marriage, bank statements, flights, accom etc)

The French were absolute Wank_ers!! I appealed the original refusal and sent a whole fresh application - the response I received was that the appeal must be written in French !! Seriously what a bunch of ass-holes.. I'll be sure to limit my spending and any contribution to French economy whilst in the region.

Anyway, very happy. Thanks to this column for all the support and comments - without it I doubt I would have applied for or even known about a family visa.

[onera1961]

On 5/7/2013 at 11:16 AM, AloisAmrein said:

Just apply in an embassy of another Schengen country, e. g. Germany or Switzerland or Italy. I am sure that you will get the visa there, and they give you a Schengen visa, which is valid for France too. The sister of my wife did so, and no problems.

I read Portugal easy for schengen visa. 

[theoldgit]

This thread is six years old, I’ll close it.
You don’t cherry pick where to apply, there are specific rules.


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