Montclair Wine

[xylophone]

I decided to step outside my comfort zone last week and I jumped across the ditch, well given it was a long happy hour 2-for-1 at 240 baht wine not right? It was that or a Chenin Blanc from South Africa, which I guess I'm glad I stuck with the NZ chard - the Chenin from SA that my wife had was far too sweet.

But not going the full heathen, I went with a Chardonnay from Pegasus Bay's lesser known label Main Devide. Now being Australian, I'm accustomed to a bit of oak and a bit of butter in my Chardonnay, but this being an NZ chardonnay I wasn't sure what to expect.

Unfortunately, all I was getting was a Sauvignon Blanc barrel residue taste which took until the 3rd glass (for either my palate to adjust or the high octaine alcohol punch I was also getting was beginning to take over) to overcome.

Price point wise, couldn't really get my bunches pressed, but just left a little disappointed.

xylophone, was that Primo Estate in Thailand or were you gallavanting about the Australian continent again?

Primo's a bit of an under the radar winery, never hear a lot about them except for when Halliday and Parker have something to say.

GS.............the Primo Estate was bought here (not gallivanting around again!) and had been well cellared to be in that good a condition for a 2007. Retails at around 1500 baht when you can find it!

Sorry to hear that you were a little disappointed with the NZ Chardonnay. The Main Divide is a "second label" wine from Pegasus Bay, so not really top notch although does get good reviews.

Spends time in French Oak barrels (both winemakers spent time in Burgundy and like the French white Burgundy wines) and has a malolactic fermentation, though not sure whether full or part malo (I prefer a part malolactic Chardonnay these days or something like a Kim Crawford non-oaked wine).

Perhaps the "Sauvignon Blanc barrel residue" was more to do with soil minerallity and wine making techniques??

[GrantSmith]

GS.............the Primo Estate was bought here (not gallivanting around again!) and had been well cellared to be in that good a condition for a 2007. Retails at around 1500 baht when you can find it!

Sorry to hear that you were a little disappointed with the NZ Chardonnay. The Main Divide is a "second label" wine from Pegasus Bay, so not really top notch although does get good reviews.

Spends time in French Oak barrels (both winemakers spent time in Burgundy and like the French white Burgundy wines) and has a malolactic fermentation, though not sure whether full or part malo (I prefer a part malolactic Chardonnay these days or something like a Kim Crawford non-oaked wine).

Perhaps the "Sauvignon Blanc barrel residue" was more to do with soil minerallity and wine making techniques??

I thought Primo had a distributer up here but their website was less than forthcoming, not that that is unusual but it does come in handy.

1500 is quite the bargain comparatively with others of its ilk.

As for Main Devide, I'm going to chalk it up to either a bad bottle - which as we both know - this happens from time to time with stelvin, nobodies perfect one out 12 is generally accepted as a black sheep. The other theory is the 'Thailand' factor, climate and storage etc. Knowing Pegasus Bay, I can say that it is generally a strong product and I know these 'lower' tiers can be somewhat of a bi-product I generally don't get that from Pegasus Bay. The residue taste I had, strange as it was made sense to me given the NZ location

Kim Crawford is my "go to if I have to" NZ brand, if I'm stuck on a winelist that doesn't appeal and I'm lazy, it's done. I should broaden my horizons again.

Oh speaking of which, was at a wedding earlier tonight, was told it was a 'dry' event so the wife and I had a couple of liveners in the bar before going in. Upon reaching the bar, I instantly had this shock realisation that I was walking into an upmarket 7|11 sans "bing bong" as you walk through the door. So the bar was filled with Jacob's Creek. I knew this was not going to bode well, as did the wife. Fortunately, the house pour was a Chardonnay (Chilean - Reservada I think is the brand) I was familiar with by way of a cheap and cheerful Chinese place across the main road from our soi (the wife didn't find it so funny when I told her) so a quick palate refresher and 1-for-1 job done. 210 baht nett.

So into the wedding and the waitress comes up with a plate of drinks, notice a whiskey looking flavoured water, confirmed as much and thought not bad for a dry wedding.

After the 3rd, I notice some red wine glasses being carried around, interest piques and enquire what's the poison, I'm told Bin 2. Well knock me down with a feather! That will do in a pinch.

So after getting home, I felt like revisiting another Shiraz Mouvedre blend, from Hewitson (Ned & Henry), unfortunately, I got chatting with a wine geek mate of mine in the states who'd emailed me about having issues with the yanks taking issue with the "Thailand effect" (chilling wine in the fridge no matter the colour) and we were discussing Merlot - which I'd had in the fridge from last night - so that took up the rest of the night. The Merlot we both agreed, after opening and if not consumed in the sitting should be then chilled until about 30 mins before serving again. Voila, the wine lives! Told him the yanks would lose their shit over it if he told them

Next experiment is to see how long it will last whilst being in the fridge after opening, I've said he should get almost 2 weeks.

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[xylophone]

As I have often commented in my posts, it's important to vary one's wine intake to experience good wines and the not so good wines, so as to retain a balance and to really appreciate the range of wines available.

So in amongst the talk of Montclair, boxed Chilean red, Jacobs Creek etc, I decided to go upmarket and try a 2007 Primo Estate Shale Stone Shiraz from McLaren Vale, and it was excellent. Despite being 14.5%, this didn't show through in the wine and although there were some good tannins in it, they had softened, making it a very lovely wine indeed.

I should do this more often.............. but then the wallet is always a consideration!!!

With that in mind, do yourself a favour.....

SAMUELS GORGE!

From whence can I purchase the aforementioned drop?

[eezergood]

Well now you mention it, I do know a bloke........

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[GrantSmith]

Speaking of Samuel's Gorge, they'll be releasing their new vintages (2012's) tomorrow...

[GrantSmith]

Sorry to diverge back to Jump Yards xylophone, but did you know it's not a wine wine but one of those ghastly fruit wines?

Thread running in the Chiang Mai forum about it...

Explains why it's so cheap, but I'm more surprised to see who the importer is vs who I thought it was...

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[eezergood]

Sorry to diverge back to Jump Yards xylophone, but did you know it's not a wine wine but one of those ghastly fruit wines?

Thread running in the Chiang Mai forum about it...

Explains why it's so cheap, but I'm more surprised to see who the importer is vs who I thought it was...

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Bottled in Vietnam i suspect!

[GrantSmith]

Bottled in Vietnam i suspect!

Yup, in the Chiang Mai forum there's a photo of the back label which mentions a company in Dalat, Vietnam...

It's more the contents that surprised me.

[xylophone]

Bottled in Vietnam i suspect!

Yup, in the Chiang Mai forum there's a photo of the back label which mentions a company in Dalat, Vietnam...

It's more the contents that surprised me.

Yes, I did mention that it was bottled in Vietnam in another post, however according to the website, it is sourced from Australian Shiraz grapes.

I have just seen that thread running on the Chiang Mai forum and contributed to it, and the only thing I can think of is that to be able to get it in so cheaply, either the importing of grape juice into Vietnam, fermenting and bottling has got round some taxes OR because in Australia (and some other countries to I believe) a bottle of wine is allowed to include up to 25% of another grape/fruit without actually mentioning it on the label.

I can't believe it is a pure non-grape wine, having tasted it, but there again I once blind tasted a fruit wine in NZ which I swore was a Riesling, but it wasn't!!

I wonder if anyone can turn up more information on it, because on the Jump Yards website, it clearly states that the grapes are sourced in Australia.

[GrantSmith]

Agreed it would be helpful in the other thread if the OP posted the correct label Which I didn't notice until you pointed it out

As I understand it, if it's got grapes in it, majority or not it can't be called fruit wine.

Further, if it's saying it's a Chardonnay then Chardonnay needs to be the majority (over 85%) and anything over 2% (IIRC and I could be wrong, it's been a while since my first WSET course) needs to be mentioned on the label.

Here's a link to the Wine Australia website about labelling etc..

http://www.wineaustralia.com/en/Production%20and%20Exporting/Labelling.aspx

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[xylophone]

Agreed it would be helpful in the other thread if the OP posted the correct label Which I didn't notice until you pointed it out

As I understand it, if it's got grapes in it, majority or not it can't be called fruit wine.

Further, if it's saying it's a Chardonnay then Chardonnay needs to be the majority (over 85%) and anything over 2% (IIRC and I could be wrong, it's been a while since my first WSET course) needs to be mentioned on the label.

Here's a link to the Wine Australia website about labelling etc..

http://www.wineaustralia.com/en/Production%20and%20Exporting/Labelling.aspx

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Sorry, got my percentages wrong!! However not so sure on the 2% of others..........if not claimed on the label then I always thought it could be up to 15% (I thought 25% but that does seem too high now I look at it).

So a wine labelled Chardonnay will have the 85%, and say Semillon could make up the other 15% and not be claimed on the label.

Not sure about the "fruit wine" labelling, but do know that some Italian producers were labelling their wine "cooking wine" to get round some taxes, and saw them here!

[GrantSmith]

Sorry, got my percentages wrong!! However not so sure on the 2% of others..........if not claimed on the label then I always thought it could be up to 15% (I thought 25% but that does seem too high now I look at it).

So a wine labelled Chardonnay will have the 85%, and say Semillon could make up the other 15% and not be claimed on the label.

Not sure about the "fruit wine" labelling, but do know that some Italian producers were labelling their wine "cooking wine" to get round some taxes, and saw them here!

Honestly, I'm not sure about the percentage, but for some reason 2% was sticking in my head.

Essentially the 85/15 example is possible in theory, but I'm sure there's a Food Standards Code that prevents this. Again I can't find the rulebook on this and my WSET books are back in farangland.

Cooking wine was the old trick used for Silver Pillows, well not sure it was a trick more so than a health warning given that Chateau Cardboard is really only fit for consumption in cooking

[raro]

The percentage varies from country to country. In Germany it is indeed 85/15 to qualify as "quality wine" and the 85% content must be shown on the label. The other 15% can be played around with - different grapes, different year, different field, but must come from the same area.

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[xylophone]

Changing tack slightly, but what does one do if one wants to move away from the "vague content" of Montclair and Jump Yards when wanting to drink red wine with spicy Thai food?

I certainly don't want to drink any of my quality Australian, Chilean and Italian reds with something full of chilies, so I keep an eye out for every day quaffers, and was lucky enough to find some the other day and I will share the news with you.

Tesco seems to be clearing out some of its older and slow-moving stock of wine and I sampled an Australian Shiraz called "Kangaroo Ridge" (or was it Point?) Anyway it was a 2009 and although it comes from the area famous for huge quantities of cheap end wine, this one was pretty good considering the area. Problem being that when I returned a couple of days later, someone had snaffled the lot, so they got a good buy at 249 baht.

Another clear out wine from Tesco was their own label "Australian Red" with an orangey red label, at under 300 baht. It didn't have the year, so it was most probably a blend of years, and came from the same area as above. However it was past its use by date and was on the point of oxidising (IMO) so I tipped it down the sink and would not recommend this at all.

However there was one little gem and it was from South Africa. It was called "Long Neck" Pinotage. Most of the bottles were the year 2006, but in amongst them were quite a few 2010 vintage bottles, so I tried one, and although I'm not a fan of the Pinotage grape (a South African cross between the Pinot Noir and Cinsault grapes, and this because the Cinsault grape was known as "Hermitage" in South Africa) it was very pleasant indeed.

I have never found layers of complexity in this grape, and nor would I do in something of this price, however it was a very palatable everyday drinker and for under 300 baht a bottle, so I bought 10 of them. Didn't want to chance my arm on the 2006 vintage, but my hunch on this one proved to be sound.

It might pay to check your local Tesco if you are interested in a fruity everyday drinking wine, excluding the two mentioned in the first line.

[eezergood]

Does this have the Giraffe on the bottle?

[xylophone]

Does this have the Giraffe on the bottle?

Yes...........and there was still some at Tesco Lotus Phuket when I last looked. At 299 baht a bottle, a good value drinker IMO.

[grumpyoldman]

Question to xylophone and you other wine resident experts here, these fruit wines i.e. the topic title here, is the alcohol the product of fermentation of grapes, or the fruits thus making it a "fruit wine"?

A little confusing after reading through the other "Vietnam pineapple alcohol" thread.

[xylophone]

Question to xylophone and you other wine resident experts here, these fruit wines i.e. the topic title here, is the alcohol the product of fermentation of grapes, or the fruits thus making it a "fruit wine"?

A little confusing after reading through the other "Vietnam pineapple alcohol" thread.

Hmmmmm..............the $64,000 question, although we do know that Montclair red wine does contain Roselle (as it is stated on the box) but no one knows quite how the final product is achieved.

The two scenarios are that the Roselle fruit is actually added to the grape juice and they are fermented together, which would be the easiest, however some research I have done suggests that wine made from Roselle fruit differed very little from wine purely made from grapes, which was used as a reference point, and this from the "Institute of Brewing". Therefore it could be fermented separately and added to the final mix.

Making a bit of an assumption, I would say that the vast majority of the alcohol in Montclair comes from the fermentation of the grapes with the addition of the Roselle giving it a little acidity and colour, whilst at the same time getting round various taxes.

Roselle juice appears to have some health benefits along the lines of being high in vitamin C and anthocyanins, and is supposed to have beneficial effects on the liver and diabetes. On the other side of the coin, it can also be a mild diuretic and laxative, so perhaps too much of it added would not produce a great effect for the consumer!!.

No word on what is actually said on the back of the "Jump Yards" or "Belleville" bottles and no one has been able to clear up the mystery of the "pineapple alcohol" as yet, as there are differing opinions as to what is actually said in the Thai language (can anyone help with this?).

For what it's worth, a slightly chilled bottle of the Jump Yards red doesn't seem to go too badly with a spicy Thai dish, irrespective of what is in it!!

[xylophone]

An interesting article on the blending of wines by individuals to suit their own tastes!!

Over 30 years ago I was given a wooden box about 18" x 10" which contained six small bottles of cognac from different vineyards, and the object of the exercise was to blend them to an end product suitable for the individual's taste. Tasting notes and all the paraphernalia required to do this was also included and it was a really splendid gift. The problem was that I don't drink cognac, so I gave it away to a friend who did!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11253761

[eezergood]

Question to xylophone and you other wine resident experts here, these fruit wines i.e. the topic title here, is the alcohol the product of fermentation of grapes, or the fruits thus making it a "fruit wine"?

A little confusing after reading through the other "Vietnam pineapple alcohol" thread.

Hmmmmm..............the $64,000 question, although we do know that Montclair red wine does contain Roselle (as it is stated on the box) but no one knows quite how the final product is achieved.

The two scenarios are that the Roselle fruit is actually added to the grape juice and they are fermented together, which would be the easiest, however some research I have done suggests that wine made from Roselle fruit differed very little from wine purely made from grapes, which was used as a reference point, and this from the "Institute of Brewing". Therefore it could be fermented separately and added to the final mix.

Making a bit of an assumption, I would say that the vast majority of the alcohol in Montclair comes from the fermentation of the grapes with the addition of the Roselle giving it a little acidity and colour, whilst at the same time getting round various taxes.

Roselle juice appears to have some health benefits along the lines of being high in vitamin C and anthocyanins, and is supposed to have beneficial effects on the liver and diabetes. On the other side of the coin, it can also be a mild diuretic and laxative, so perhaps too much of it added would not produce a great effect for the consumer!!.

No word on what is actually said on the back of the "Jump Yards" or "Belleville" bottles and no one has been able to clear up the mystery of the "pineapple alcohol" as yet, as there are differing opinions as to what is actually said in the Thai language (can anyone help with this?).

For what it's worth, a slightly chilled bottle of the Jump Yards red doesn't seem to go too badly with a spicy Thai dish, irrespective of what is in it!!

I would assume, only that and nothing more, the pineapple alcohol has a few effects...

• Increase the alcohol level whilst achieving sweetness without the distinctive grain flavour (read rancid p!ss) associated with cheap grain alcohol
• Integrate much better than said grain alcohol
• Avoid taxes, fermented fruit juice, rather than fermented grain = whiskey(ish)
• Cheap & plentiful, infact only the skin is needed which can be purchased from any fruit processing place. Pig farmers buy loads of it

Just my 2 bobs worth........

[GrantSmith]

Question to xylophone and you other wine resident experts here, these fruit wines i.e. the topic title here, is the alcohol the product of fermentation of grapes, or the fruits thus making it a "fruit wine"?

A little confusing after reading through the other "Vietnam pineapple alcohol" thread.

G'day grumpyoldman,

Sorry for the lateish reply, have been down visiting some wineries in South Australia where I brought up this very topic with a number of wine makers.

The polite answer to this stuff that Montclair et al are producing: It is not wine.

The longer slightly more complex answer involves a lot of expletives.

In a nutshell, wine is produced 100% from grapes. Anything else (eg pineapple) is considered "fruit wine". Marketing and advertising "fruit wine" and "wine" is - in the opinion - of many wine makers wrong.

The fermentation of the grapes is what seperates it from a grape juice. The addition of other fruits into the fermentation process is done to lower the taxes that are associated with it.

[esprit]

Good to see that the ultimate in egotism still exists on this forum, wine snobbery.

At the end of the day, whatever is suitable to your palate is good,irrespective of where it comes from, price or any other reason offered by the pontificates on this form, if it is not, then choose another bottle.

[GrantSmith]

Good to see that the ultimate in egotism still exists on this forum, wine snobbery.

At the end of the day, whatever is suitable to your palate is good,irrespective of where it comes from, price or any other reason offered by the pontificates on this form, if it is not, then choose another bottle.

Sorry wine snobbery is nothing to do with the wine vs fruit wine argument. Simply because wine snobbery revolves around wine, not fruit wine

As Basil Fawlty quipped: "I can certainly see that you know your wine. Most of the guests who stay here wouldn’t know the difference between Bordeaux and Claret."

[eezergood]

Good to see that the ultimate in egotism still exists on this forum, wine snobbery.

At the end of the day, whatever is suitable to your palate is good,irrespective of where it comes from, price or any other reason offered by the pontificates on this form, if it is not, then choose another bottle.

If you look at the wines we are discussing, by enlarge these are not high end wines. Seems a lot of negativity around wine in general, people always out to debunk the experts & so on........

As Grant says, this stuff is wrongly labelled as wine which it is not. Its a technicality only, of which there are many in the food & bev game

[xylophone]

Good to see that the ultimate in egotism still exists on this forum, wine snobbery.

At the end of the day, whatever is suitable to your palate is good,irrespective of where it comes from, price or any other reason offered by the pontificates on this form, if it is not, then choose another bottle.

I think you need to read the posts a little more carefully, because this "discussion" is not about anything other than the mislabelling of a product.

If it is a wine made purely from grapes, then it is known simply as a wine. If it contains something other than grapes (or in addition to), it has to be called "Fruit wine".

Incorrect labelling, or labelling meant to deceive is really what this is all about, and if I am going to buy a wine, then I want it to be made purely from grapes, if I want to buy a fruit wine, then I know it will contain fruit and possibly grapes– – just tell it like it is. The problem with some of the wines discussed is that they discuss at great length the grapes used in the wines, extolling the virtues of the quality of the Cabernet Sauvignon and Shiraz grapes in large text, and hidden away somewhere at the back of the label, sometimes in smaller print, are the words "Fruit Wine", with absolutely no explanation as to what this means.

I agree with your comment about whatever being suitable to your palate, and I have no problem with that, and you will see that coming through in quite a few of my posts. But don't call a wine made from grapes and other fruit, WINE.

A definition of wine put simply, is: "an alcoholic drink made from fermented grape juice". No other fruit added; that's where we are coming from.

[Jip99]

Good to see that the ultimate in egotism still exists on this forum, wine snobbery.

At the end of the day, whatever is suitable to your palate is good,irrespective of where it comes from, price or any other reason offered by the pontificates on this form, if it is not, then choose another bottle.

Sorry wine snobbery is nothing to do with the wine vs fruit wine argument. Simply because wine snobbery revolves around wine, not fruit wine

As Basil Fawlty quipped: "I can certainly see that you know your wine. Most of the guests who stay here wouldn’t know the difference between Bordeaux and Claret."

Are you seriously suggesting that wine snobbery is not in evidence in this thread ?

[eezergood]

Good to see that the ultimate in egotism still exists on this forum, wine snobbery.

At the end of the day, whatever is suitable to your palate is good,irrespective of where it comes from, price or any other reason offered by the pontificates on this form, if it is not, then choose another bottle.

Sorry wine snobbery is nothing to do with the wine vs fruit wine argument. Simply because wine snobbery revolves around wine, not fruit wine

As Basil Fawlty quipped: "I can certainly see that you know your wine. Most of the guests who stay here wouldn’t know the difference between Bordeaux and Claret."

Are you seriously suggesting that wine snobbery is not in evidence in this thread ?

Yes - considering the 'wine' which started the thread is a boxed wine which, at the time, sold for about THB700 fuurthermore the most expenive wines, from memory, discussed here topped out at THB2000 MAX.

I would wonder why you thought this thread snobby?

[GrantSmith]

Are you seriously suggesting that wine snobbery is not in evidence in this thread ?

The short answer? Yes...

[LivinginKata]

Are you seriously suggesting that wine snobbery is not in evidence in this thread ?

The short answer? Yes...

Really ... really. I look at this topic as wine appreciation and not wine snobbery.

[Jip99]

Good to see that the ultimate in egotism still exists on this forum, wine snobbery.

At the end of the day, whatever is suitable to your palate is good,irrespective of where it comes from, price or any other reason offered by the pontificates on this form, if it is not, then choose another bottle.

Sorry wine snobbery is nothing to do with the wine vs fruit wine argument. Simply because wine snobbery revolves around wine, not fruit wine

As Basil Fawlty quipped: "I can certainly see that you know your wine. Most of the guests who stay here wouldn’t know the difference between Bordeaux and Claret."

Are you seriously suggesting that wine snobbery is not in evidence in this thread ?

Yes - considering the 'wine' which started the thread is a boxed wine which, at the time, sold for about THB700 fuurthermore the most expenive wines, from memory, discussed here topped out at THB2000 MAX.

I would wonder why you thought this thread snobby?

It is just my opinion that the thread has moved so far away from the OP (talking of wines @ 300 Baht) about Mont Clair 'wine' so as to become unrecognisable from the thread title.

As LivinginKata suggests, this has become a wine appreciation thread - again, a long way from the thread title and OP.

Maybe a new thread, or re-titling, to "Appreciation of wines in Thailand" would be appropriate. Nothing wrong with a debate about such matters.

Nonetheless, I am not the only one to identify wine snobbery and please don't try to say that there isn't a p!ssing contest going on with some posters.

I will continue to quaff my Mont Clare fruit drink in Thailand - on the grounds of value - and save the Chateauneuf du Pape and Rioja Reserva for Cambodia where I can pay a sensible price.