Montclair Wine

[GiantFan]

Someone mentioned about shipping in bulk, cleanskins, and the wine lake in Oz. An interesting link is shown below that shows the benefit of shipping in bulk (scroll down a bit). I would love it if somebody could bring in flexitanks of Oz wine into Thailand.

http://www.thirtyfifty.co.uk/spotlight-environment-and-wine.asp

[xylophone]

Someone mentioned about shipping in bulk, cleanskins, and the wine lake in Oz. An interesting link is shown below that shows the benefit of shipping in bulk (scroll down a bit). I would love it if somebody could bring in flexitanks of Oz wine into Thailand.

http://www.thirtyfifty.co.uk/spotlight-environment-and-wine.asp

Makes interesting reading, and if I'm not mistaken it's what Siam winery/wines do with the Montclair wine, there you go, back onto your original subject!!

On the face of it there would appear to be many reasons why this would work, however supply and demand may well be a key factor because the volume of cleanskins wines in Australia ebbs and flows with the glut, or not, of wine, and one could see in a year without a wine glut that there would not be much wine to export, perhaps p@ssing off the importers and merchants alike. Whereas I suspect that the Montclair wines are from vineyards specifically geared to this trade thereby ensuring continuous supply.

Just a hunch, however any other thoughts would be welcome.

[xylophone]

Thanks Guys, great info so I am looking forward to the journey even more now.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Laislica, just to broaden your knowledge as I know you are keen to learn...........when you are in Spain see if you can taste a white wine made from the Airen grape. The reason I say that is because I have just noticed that particular grape variety is being sold over here in boxed wines, and to be honest I'm quite amazed at this.

It is way down the chain of desirable grapes and really has nothing much going for it apart from the fact it makes characterless every day, fairly low alcohol white wine, much of which is used in blending and distilling into the spirits so common in Spain. On a hot sunny day mixed with soda water it would probably be okay as a spritzer.

My point is that going back to the subject of low quality grapes/wines, I posted that I wondered why this was still being done when there was a need to be able to improve the general quality of low-end wine in the marketplace, and then I saw the Airen wine being sold here.

Anyway, why not taste it and see what you think, because you would be one of the few people I know that would have ever tasted this wine and of course it would be another wine experience to add to your repertoire.

It does have one other thing going for it in as much as it covers more acreage than any other grape variety because of the type of vine and the way the grapes grow, spreading out. That does not mean it is the world's most widely planted white grape (which by the way is sultana) just that it covers more ground than others.

[eezergood]

Someone mentioned about shipping in bulk, cleanskins, and the wine lake in Oz. An interesting link is shown below that shows the benefit of shipping in bulk (scroll down a bit). I would love it if somebody could bring in flexitanks of Oz wine into Thailand.

http://www.thirtyfifty.co.uk/spotlight-environment-and-wine.asp

Makes interesting reading, and if I'm not mistaken it's what Siam winery/wines do with the Montclair wine, there you go, back onto your original subject!!

On the face of it there would appear to be many reasons why this would work, however supply and demand may well be a key factor because the volume of cleanskins wines in Australia ebbs and flows with the glut, or not, of wine, and one could see in a year without a wine glut that there would not be much wine to export, perhaps p@ssing off the importers and merchants alike. Whereas I suspect that the Montclair wines are from vineyards specifically geared to this trade thereby ensuring continuous supply.

Just a hunch, however any other thoughts would be welcome.

Many clearskins are blended also - Mini co-ops (for want of a better word) of growers will jointly blend either their gluts or substandard grapes. The results are twofold, gluts are used up to create a profit or at least to cover costs and substandard grapes are sold out of brand so as to not devalue a certain winery/grape/brand name etc.....

[emubob]

Thanks again Xylophone for an excellent and informative post. I have a question for you. If you were to be in a country where the tax laws were not so prohibitive then what would be your favourite wine country of choice? I understand that with your wine appreciation that you may well flit from country to country but in general what would be your wine country of preference when looking to purchase wine?

I am a huge fan of Australian wines and, although not from there, have been lucky enough to spend quite a lot of time there over the years. I started to get into wine in my early twenties when travelling there and haven't looked back. I have visited several wine regions all over the country and their wine industry is incredible and so diverse.

Generally in Thailand I will always stick to New World wines as the lower price Old World wine I find to be inferior and poor value in comparison.

Crikey emubob, that's a hard question to answer. However firstly I can understand your appreciation of Australian wines for all the reasons we have discussed and you really can't go wrong with the majority of them, and you are quite right that in general the old world wine tends to be "inferior" (have to be careful with that word) and poor value in comparison to what can be bought in Australia at the same price.

Great that you have been able to travel around Australia and check out the wine industry and have to agree with you on your points about it.

In my case, because I have been fortunate enough to travel around some good wine countries/regions I tend to have a policy which leans towards buying a wine for a particular purpose. By that I mean that if I were to want to keep wines for a long period of time to mature to be absolutely fantastic then I would go for the classed growths of Bordeaux and the great wines of Burgundy, with wines from Cote Rotie, Hermitage and Chateauneuf du Papes thrown in. A few Italian classics would find their way in there as well as some Rioja Gran Reserva wines. Have bought and tasted a few classic wines from the USA (e.g. Robert Mondavi Cabernet Sauvignon 1984 reserve) but my wine experience with that country is rather limited.

Add to that the Australian classics such as Grange and Henschke and a few others and they would constitute my "keeping" wine.

What I used to call my "everyday drinkers" would certainly be the wines from Australia and some of the better wines now being made in the South of France, with some additions from Italy – – not wines for laying down you would understand, ones that can be drunk immediately or would possibly improve in bottle for a couple of years.

You see I think every country has its strengths as regards wine and I find it difficult to pin my tastes down now that I have tasted so many. There is one thing I will add and you can take from it what you wish, and that is that every so often I tire of drinking the big fruit driven Australian reds (much as I love them) and want something with perhaps a little less fruit and a little more individuality (don't know if that's the right word) so I will pick something from the South of France, or an Italian wine which can include Cabernet Sauvignon and Sangiovese in the mix.

A very good and yet difficult question and I don't know as I have answered it that well!!

Hi Xylophone! Thanks again for your very interesting and informative response to my post. When using the word 'inferior' I was referring to the lower end wines I have tasted in Thailand when comparing Old World v New World. I have thoroughly enjoyed several Old World wines when in Europe but here in Thailand I will always choose New World. I find the Italian wines here to be especially poor and will generally stay away from them. I did have the chance to taste a lovely Italian Amarone a few months ago but it was in the region of 4,000-5,000 baht a bottle and therefore out of my price range.

I agree with your thoughts about enjoying a change from the big reds and am of similar thought. Whilst I love a big red from Coonawarra or Barossa I also enjoy mixing it up and tasting different grape varietals and regions. With being in the heat of Thailand I am more partial to an afternoon glass of white or rose whereas in colder climes I tend to stick to red!

I have another question for you which some readers of this thread may find of interest. I am assuming you are now staying in Phuket and I was therefore wondering if you had any thoughts/tips on the storing of wine in a very warm and humid country? For many people, cellaring and wine fridges may not be possible so if you were to have a few nice bottles that you would like to keep for a special occasion, what would you suggest? Furthermore, do you have any insight in regards to how wine may change/deteriorate in such heat?

Thanks once again for all your info.

Emubob

[xylophone]

Quote emubob: "I have another question for you which some readers of this thread may find of interest. I am assuming you are now staying in Phuket and I was therefore wondering if you had any thoughts/tips on the storing of wine in a very warm and humid country? For many people, cellaring and wine fridges may not be possible so if you were to have a few nice bottles that you would like to keep for a special occasion, what would you suggest? Furthermore, do you have any insight in regards to how wine may change/deteriorate in such heat?"

Good to hear that you agree with the change away from the big fruit driven wines sometimes, as I thought it might be just one of my quirks!! Also have to agree with you about the vast quantity of poor Italian wine available here (although some very nice ones to be had in the likes of the Wine Connection etc) and I sometimes cringe when I see the 2 L bottles available because I have had so many glasses of wine which was "off", poured from these in various restaurants here, that it's not funny.

Now for the subject of storing wine here, and I'm afraid the bottom-line is pretty straightforward, that without some sort of cooling mechanism, wine here is going to suffer. There is, and has been, much written on temperature and wine and I will try and keep this brief so generalisation is necessary. On the one hand, quite possibly the worst thing for a wine is wide temperature variation, as this can age the wine quite markedly, not only that, it's quite possible that the cork (if there is one) can become loose in the bottle with the expansion and contraction and therefore let in air which can spoil the wine.

Storing the wine here without any cooling mechanism could well mean that during the daytime it is up to 30° or more and although there won't be wide temperature variation, wine at this temperature will certainly age quickly and can become unpalatable relatively soon, not to mention the fact that serving it at this temperature will bring through a lot of the "volatile aromas" and you certainly won't be tasting the wine at its best, just some bad aspects of it.

In a nutshell, heat ages wine (and quite quickly as well), whereas wine kept cool benefits by keeping longer – – you may have read about the bottles of champagne dredged up from the bottom of the sea around Scandinavia and these were over 150 years old, yet some were still drinkable!! On the other hand, the wine of Madeira which was in oak casks and on-board ship for many months, crossing the equator before being delivered to the end user, benefited from the journey and the heat although the style of the wine changed quite markedly during this journey and found great favour with the English. One incident where heat worked in a wine's favour!!

I don't know that there is an alternative here, although I was lucky enough to be able to purchase a very small wine fridge (made in China and cheap) about 5 years ago when they appeared in Carrefour, but I haven't seen them since, only the hugely expensive ones priced at around 20,000 baht and more. If I didn't have this I would visit a local and good air-conditioning man and see if he could rig something up from an old small fridge that could keep wine chilled, but the compressor wouldn't have to be that brilliant to be able to reach the full cooling and freezing range that a fridge does. Perhaps one could get something for a few thousand baht and store it with a padlock on it somewhere around the place!!

If anyone else has any good ideas or suggestions, then I'm sure there would be many people here who would love to hear of them.

[JetsetBkk]

What I don't like about these boxes of wine is that it says on the box that it will last for 6 weeks, and I've never had one last more than 3.

[KarenBravo]

This thread is starting to get "pretentious".

[grumpyoldman]

This thread is starting to get "pretentious".

No need to put quotes around pretentious KB, the kettle is black.

[jdean]

As the person who was tasked with selecting wine for a Patong bar for some years, I was thankful for the appearance of Montclair. Until then I has to choose from 2 Liter bottles, usually Italian. I would find a good one that wasn't to expensive, only soon to discover it to be out of stock, never to be seen again. Montclair solved the consistency and supply problem for me. Whatever you might think of the quality it was a relief to stop my perpetual search.

At many of the bars in Patong you will not find customers looking for a good glass of wine, just a glass of wine, seemingly any glass will do.

It also solved the storage problem. Once you opened a 2 liter bottle, even stored with the beer, the days were numbered before you had it start to vinegar on you.often in just 3 days. With the cost of wine being so expensive in Thailand, bars usually can not afford to throw it away. Thus the horrible glass of wine being served to the unwary. The Montclair Box, because the nozzle stops the air from entering the wine bladder, could be opened and then stored in with the beer for a much much longer time, though there still were problems if it sat too long.

So thanks to Montclair for: Availabiliity, Affordability, Storability, Consistency and Drinkability - this last being often disputed in this thread.

I have also tried the Bodega and agree the quality is a step above Montclair. , However, they are too expensive for the usual bar wine, Be warned, I carried some boxes in my backpack and walked home. I have had 2 boxes develop leaks from doing this. I Have done the same with Montclair but have never had a similar leak with their boxes.

[xylophone]

This thread is starting to get "pretentious".

No need to put quotes around pretentious KB, the kettle is black.

Such a shame to see posts like this, especially when there have been positive comments on the subject and the content, but there again, I suppose it takes all sorts and envy can manifest itself in many ways.

So rather than post sarcastic and flippant comments, then thinly veiled insults, there is a simple solution………if you don't like what is being posted, then don't visit the thread.

Edited May 27, 2013 by xylophone

[eezergood]

Who feels like a meet up session, nothing heavy or heaven forbid pretentious. Just a few people & a few glasses of wine? If anyone is intereted i can try to arrange something.

[emubob]

This thread is starting to get "pretentious".

No need to put quotes around pretentious KB, the kettle is black.

Such a shame to see posts like this, especially when there have been positive comments on the subject and the content, but there again, I suppose it takes all sorts and envy can manifest itself in many ways.

So rather than post sarcastic and flippant comments, then thinly veiled insults, there is a simple solution………if you don't like what is being posted, then don't visit the thread.

Completely agree Xylophone.

Who feels like a meet up session, nothing heavy or heaven forbid pretentious. Just a few people & a few glasses of wine? If anyone is intereted i can try to arrange something.

I would be interested if the time and place permits.

[jocko]

Who feels like a meet up session, nothing heavy or heaven forbid pretentious. Just a few people & a few glasses of wine? If anyone is intereted i can try to arrange something.

Don't forget to bring that great song, Little Ole Wine Drinker Me by Dean Martin. or Gimme That Wine by Georgie Fame

[xylophone]

Who feels like a meet up session, nothing heavy or heaven forbid pretentious. Just a few people & a few glasses of wine? If anyone is intereted i can try to arrange something.

Same same emubob.........would be a good idea, though not on a Tuesday as already attend one "pseudo" wine tasting!!!

[eezergood]

Am open to suggestions, I have an idea that I would need to run by a friend. Will wait a few days see who is interested & we can go from there

[seajae]

I love a good wine so I brought my cellar over with me, unfortunately there are only a few left, 3 or 4 bottles of merlot, 2 bottles of trockenbeerenauslese, 1 beerenauslese(all half bottles) and a nice french red. Coming from Australia I had the choice of some of the best red and whites in the world plus I used to buy some great overseas wines as well. I have paid between $5 and close to $100 a bottle for my wines with the usual price hovering around $20. Some of the cheapies were great and some of the expensive ones were crap, a lot were over rated and the aussie merlots were mostly brilliant although I did fin a NZ one that was great too. A lot depends on individual tastes, I can drink dry and sweet as long as they are good quality and with the right foods. Here even in the best hotels the wine lists leave a bit to be desired, they may have french wines etc but not the better ones. In the shops it is hard to find really good ones as they usually have the cheaper ones from other countries although I have come across a good one now and then, mostly better off with a spirit here. In Australia I would have a wine and cheese night pretty regularly(usually lots of seafood as well, I like to cook, father had a top restaurant) and everyone would bring a few bottles of their favourite wines and block/wheel of cheese, great nights and good way to find out more nice wines. When tasting a wine before buying always do it with room temperature wines as the true flavours show through, after chilling you get a totally different taste.

[seajae]

Quote emubob: "I have another question for you which some readers of this thread may find of interest. I am assuming you are now staying in Phuket and I was therefore wondering if you had any thoughts/tips on the storing of wine in a very warm and humid country? For many people, cellaring and wine fridges may not be possible so if you were to have a few nice bottles that you would like to keep for a special occasion, what would you suggest? Furthermore, do you have any insight in regards to how wine may change/deteriorate in such heat?"

Good to hear that you agree with the change away from the big fruit driven wines sometimes, as I thought it might be just one of my quirks!! Also have to agree with you about the vast quantity of poor Italian wine available here (although some very nice ones to be had in the likes of the Wine Connection etc) and I sometimes cringe when I see the 2 L bottles available because I have had so many glasses of wine which was "off", poured from these in various restaurants here, that it's not funny.

Now for the subject of storing wine here, and I'm afraid the bottom-line is pretty straightforward, that without some sort of cooling mechanism, wine here is going to suffer. There is, and has been, much written on temperature and wine and I will try and keep this brief so generalisation is necessary. On the one hand, quite possibly the worst thing for a wine is wide temperature variation, as this can age the wine quite markedly, not only that, it's quite possible that the cork (if there is one) can become loose in the bottle with the expansion and contraction and therefore let in air which can spoil the wine.

Storing the wine here without any cooling mechanism could well mean that during the daytime it is up to 30° or more and although there won't be wide temperature variation, wine at this temperature will certainly age quickly and can become unpalatable relatively soon, not to mention the fact that serving it at this temperature will bring through a lot of the "volatile aromas" and you certainly won't be tasting the wine at its best, just some bad aspects of it.

In a nutshell, heat ages wine (and quite quickly as well), whereas wine kept cool benefits by keeping longer – – you may have read about the bottles of champagne dredged up from the bottom of the sea around Scandinavia and these were over 150 years old, yet some were still drinkable!! On the other hand, the wine of Madeira which was in oak casks and on-board ship for many months, crossing the equator before being delivered to the end user, benefited from the journey and the heat although the style of the wine changed quite markedly during this journey and found great favour with the English. One incident where heat worked in a wine's favour!!

I don't know that there is an alternative here, although I was lucky enough to be able to purchase a very small wine fridge (made in China and cheap) about 5 years ago when they appeared in Carrefour, but I haven't seen them since, only the hugely expensive ones priced at around 20,000 baht and more. If I didn't have this I would visit a local and good air-conditioning man and see if he could rig something up from an old small fridge that could keep wine chilled, but the compressor wouldn't have to be that brilliant to be able to reach the full cooling and freezing range that a fridge does. Perhaps one could get something for a few thousand baht and store it with a padlock on it somewhere around the place!!

If anyone else has any good ideas or suggestions, then I'm sure there would be many people here who would love to hear of them.

lay corked bottles on their side so that the wine is against the cork, keeping the cork "wet" stops shrinkage but if the cork quality is poor the cork will deteriorate and you will get a wet spot indicating that you either need to drink it before it spoils or toss it. Ideally you need temps of below 10 c to keep wines ok, the lower the better but not that cold they are near freezing, I found 2c to 5 c to be almost perfect, central and low in the house or under it is best to achieve this but here a fridge is almost mandatory but you can run it on very low settings so that it doesnt draw a lot of power, doesnt need to keep the bottles really cold only constant low temps.

[seajae]

Couple years back a couple of winos I know brought some serious plonk to the Green Man's mystery wine tasting where they wrap the bottles, no one knows what is what and then everybody judges the wines.

Well,,,,,, the winos 299thb plonk won the contest which goes to show there are a lot of people out there (Montclair drinkers especially) that don't know squat about wine but as long as it's smooth and taste like fruit it's good2go.

Thus the success of the Australian wine industry........

Yes I have had similar happen in wine tastings, which is probably the reason that wine is such a far reaching and fascinating subject because like everything, it is many things to many people. As an example, I couldn't tell the difference between the finest malt whisky ever made and an every day one, yet there are people out there who would scoff at such a thing calling me a philistine, however in my wine experience I have tried not to get into that category. More a case of everyone to their own, but trying to share experiences where possible.

And just to show that tastes can vary, I have sat at a table and someone has poured and oxidised wine (just about undrinkable to me and many others) however a couple on the table had no problems with it, so we have different tastes I suppose.

Whatever may be said, I know what wines and experiences I have liked the most in my life and still remember them, many first growth Bordeaux, a fine burgundy from Mme LeRoy, Cote Rotie and Hermitage from Ogier et al, and the personal wine tasting with J M Cazes, owner of Chateaux Lynch Bages, to name but a few. However I also know that I have enjoyed wines at the medium and low end of the spectrum and am always seeking new experiences and keeping an open mind as to what they're like.

I can really understand why the Australian wine industry took off, because of the huge amount of poor French, Italian and Spanish wine which was being exported and consumed by the everyday consumer, and these people aren't the ones that are in a position to partake of the finest wines, they (and I) just want something which is pleasant to drink, and the fruit driven wines from Australia certainly fit the bill.

Having said that there are some fine wines crafted in Australia and I have enjoyed wines at both ends of the spectrum from that country, so these wines have their place. And I don't know that people need to know "squat" about wine, provided they enjoy what they're drinking.

except that now some of the aussie wines outrank the french wines by miles, the days of france being top of the tree are long gone,champagne is really the main one they have left and a few reds and whites.

[seajae]

Yes, I don't disagree that it is possible to get a decent wine here but as you say, it depends on the cost, the shipper and the transportation/storage factors, for box wine at the lower end of the scale I would guess that a good box is a rareity.

Yes, you are right, the cost, the shipper in transportation/storage factors are key. Having said that, maybe I have been a little tardy in my explanation in as much as there are some good box wines around, but I have had a couple of bad experiences with them.

Let's take the first instance of the horrible pseudo-Chilean Spanish Shiraz, because I believe that in the first place this was a bit of a ruse as trying to label a poor Spanish Shiraz as a Chilean wine smacks of subversion in the first place. It's my opinion that this was then bought by a merchant in Denmark who found that it was not selling well, so another market was found for it, which happened to be Thailand. Hence when it eventually arrived here it was in poor condition, however that is not to say that all of the boxes were poor, but certainly the history and what I tried would lead me to that conclusion.

The second incident with the Cedar Creek wine was in fact a mistake on my part (apologies to hansgruber) because it was actually a wine called "Jimberoo" from Australia which was clearly well out of date when it was on the shelves at Big C.

As for the post by "jocko" while there is a lot of truth in what you say and some Australian wine was in fact exported to the UK in the late 1800s, not to have found favour I will admit. As the Australian wine market continued to grow and the winemakers became more conversant with ways to treat grapes, the use of sulphur dioxide to kill the nasties and the inclusion of cultured yeasts rather than wild ones, then the wines became much better.

In the early 1970s, Australian wine was imported into the UK and it found great favour because of the comparison between the rather thin rubbish that was being imported from the south of France with little or no regard to quality, and this lovely fruit driven wine from Australia, with soft tannins, although the tannins were still very evident along with the fruit, making it a very drinkable wine with or without food.

The French then started to enforce the "Appellation Controllee" laws which were designed to improve the quality of wines from France in order to make their exports much more quality driven, although that still had some problems.

There is no doubt that the reason for the Australian success in the UK is because of the quality of the wine and the fruit driven aspect of them. That is the reason why Chilean wines are also becoming popular, and can also be a little cheaper because they came a little late onto the scene.

And just for the record, perhaps one of the most famous Australian wines, "Grange" was as a result of the Penfold's winemaker, Max Schubert's insistence that Australia could make some of the best wines in the world, so he toured Europe looking at the old world winemakers techniques and adapted some of them to his winemaking in Australia, although his first attempt at "Grange" was ridiculed by not only the Penfold's hierarchy, but also others who tried it. Little did they know that he was trying to make a wine which was going to improve quite markedly with age, which it did, and it became a hit sometime around 1954 to 1956 I believe, and the rest is history.

Sorry to go on a little, but it is a pet subject of mine and one I have studied now for over 40 years.

Thanks for the post good info .

The only reason I know about Australian wine making a impact was because of a excellent program on UK TV about it and how they had to battle against wine snobs and the old school wine makers but the Australians are a stubborn lot and knew they could win in the end.

And just to add a useless piece of info I worked in Algeria in the late 70s and as you know the French had control of Algeria until they had a revolution but the Algerians told us when it become obvious to the French that it was a lost cause they took all the grape vines back to France .

But I can say the Algerians had a go themselves to make wine and trust me you never tasted anything like it you just left the bottom quarter in the bottle.

The best hangover's I ever had and the beer was'nt much better.

Happy Days

all the class aussie wineries were actually started by overseas growers, they taught the aussies how to make wine and with the perfect soil and conditions the quality improved out of site. Also a lot of the original vines were bought over very early in australian history and these were the base grapes for many years until new varietals were introduced. At the moment australia is developing their own varietals that are looking to take off very well, great things happening down under.

[xylophone]

Quote emubob: "I have another question for you which some readers of this thread may find of interest. I am assuming you are now staying in Phuket and I was therefore wondering if you had any thoughts/tips on the storing of wine in a very warm and humid country? For many people, cellaring and wine fridges may not be possible so if you were to have a few nice bottles that you would like to keep for a special occasion, what would you suggest? Furthermore, do you have any insight in regards to how wine may change/deteriorate in such heat?"

Good to hear that you agree with the change away from the big fruit driven wines sometimes, as I thought it might be just one of my quirks!! Also have to agree with you about the vast quantity of poor Italian wine available here (although some very nice ones to be had in the likes of the Wine Connection etc) and I sometimes cringe when I see the 2 L bottles available because I have had so many glasses of wine which was "off", poured from these in various restaurants here, that it's not funny.

Now for the subject of storing wine here, and I'm afraid the bottom-line is pretty straightforward, that without some sort of cooling mechanism, wine here is going to suffer. There is, and has been, much written on temperature and wine and I will try and keep this brief so generalisation is necessary. On the one hand, quite possibly the worst thing for a wine is wide temperature variation, as this can age the wine quite markedly, not only that, it's quite possible that the cork (if there is one) can become loose in the bottle with the expansion and contraction and therefore let in air which can spoil the wine.

Storing the wine here without any cooling mechanism could well mean that during the daytime it is up to 30° or more and although there won't be wide temperature variation, wine at this temperature will certainly age quickly and can become unpalatable relatively soon, not to mention the fact that serving it at this temperature will bring through a lot of the "volatile aromas" and you certainly won't be tasting the wine at its best, just some bad aspects of it.

In a nutshell, heat ages wine (and quite quickly as well), whereas wine kept cool benefits by keeping longer – – you may have read about the bottles of champagne dredged up from the bottom of the sea around Scandinavia and these were over 150 years old, yet some were still drinkable!! On the other hand, the wine of Madeira which was in oak casks and on-board ship for many months, crossing the equator before being delivered to the end user, benefited from the journey and the heat although the style of the wine changed quite markedly during this journey and found great favour with the English. One incident where heat worked in a wine's favour!!

I don't know that there is an alternative here, although I was lucky enough to be able to purchase a very small wine fridge (made in China and cheap) about 5 years ago when they appeared in Carrefour, but I haven't seen them since, only the hugely expensive ones priced at around 20,000 baht and more. If I didn't have this I would visit a local and good air-conditioning man and see if he could rig something up from an old small fridge that could keep wine chilled, but the compressor wouldn't have to be that brilliant to be able to reach the full cooling and freezing range that a fridge does. Perhaps one could get something for a few thousand baht and store it with a padlock on it somewhere around the place!!

If anyone else has any good ideas or suggestions, then I'm sure there would be many people here who would love to hear of them.

lay corked bottles on their side so that the wine is against the cork, keeping the cork "wet" stops shrinkage but if the cork quality is poor the cork will deteriorate and you will get a wet spot indicating that you either need to drink it before it spoils or toss it. Ideally you need temps of below 10 c to keep wines ok, the lower the better but not that cold they are near freezing, I found 2c to 5 c to be almost perfect, central and low in the house or under it is best to achieve this but here a fridge is almost mandatory but you can run it on very low settings so that it doesnt draw a lot of power, doesnt need to keep the bottles really cold only constant low temps.

Yes, wine bottles should always be laid on their side to ensure the cork stays wet, something I took for granted in my post!! IMO 10° to 15° will be okay for reds and provided one lets the wine reach a good drinking temperature, already mentioned in a previous post, then it can be enjoyed at its best.

Edited May 28, 2013 by xylophone

[xylophone]

Quote seajae: "except that now some of the aussie wines outrank the french wines by miles, the days of france being top of the tree are long gone,champagne is really the main one they have left and a few reds and whites".

Granted there are some great Aussie wines around, however at the top end the French classed Bordeaux wines and Great Burgundies still fetch a premium because they are such brilliant wines and are in great demand from collectors worldwide. If indeed market forces are the indicator of quality, then paying around A$2000 per bottle for a 2-year-old vintage would suggest that there isn't really much out there to touch them.

I have bought Grange upon release just a few years ago at $500, so although they fetch a premium for Australian wines, they really don't match some of the finest reds in the world. That is not to say that they won't in the future if the French don't get their act together, but as already mentioned many of the finest Chateaux and Burgundy producers have really upped their game.

At the mid-range and lower end, then the Aussie wines come into their own and there is nothing to touch them.

Sure the Aussies are experimenting with grape varieties and Tarrango, a low-end swigger which they have developed, and they are also experimenting with new ways to vinify grapes such as Durif and Petit Verdot and good on them for doing so.

[seajae]

Quote seajae: "except that now some of the aussie wines outrank the french wines by miles, the days of france being top of the tree are long gone,champagne is really the main one they have left and a few reds and whites".

Granted there are some great Aussie wines around, however at the top end the French classed Bordeaux wines and Great Burgundies still fetch a premium because they are such brilliant wines and are in great demand from collectors worldwide. If indeed market forces are the indicator of quality, then paying around A$2000 per bottle for a 2-year-old vintage would suggest that there isn't really much out there to touch them.

I have bought Grange upon release just a few years ago at $500, so although they fetch a premium for Australian wines, they really don't match some of the finest reds in the world. That is not to say that they won't in the future if the French don't get their act together, but as already mentioned many of the finest Chateaux and Burgundy producers have really upped their game.

At the mid-range and lower end, then the Aussie wines come into their own and there is nothing to touch them.

Sure the Aussies are experimenting with grape varieties and Tarrango, a low-end swigger which they have developed, and they are also experimenting with new ways to vinify grapes such as Durif and Petit Verdot and good on them for doing so.

have to admit that I dont mind some of the bordeaux's myself, I remember finding a 10 y/o vintage at a restuarant in Qld, Australia(toowoomba) I was doing up(actually there were 3 bottles of it) back in '81. The new owners had no idea what it was worth and I got them for $15 a piece, they were spectacular. I actually spent a bit of time going through a lot of bottle shops etc back then looking for old wines and found several really classy ones and got them all very cheap. back then there were not a lot of wine drinkers in country Qld, rum was the big thing for most. Found some good Wolf Blass from the 70's(before they started using aluminium with oak chips) along with many others.

I think the french tended to just keep doing what they always had(my family history in France was the Bigot's as in Bigot de Villandry) and the aussies crept up slowly on them, although France does produce the best burgundies, dont really like it myself, prefer the fuller flavours of merlot. Grange is now selling in the thousands per bottle and a few other aussie reds are catching up but in all honesty I am not a grange drinker either(did have some "73's in my cellar though), my tatstes changed, stopped drinking chardonays too although some unwooded ones are still alright. Personally I dont like the newer reds they are bringing out as I dont enjoy the mouth feel they leave, would prefer my 2009 Castlemere but only have 1 bottle left from the vintage. Opened the Beerenauslese last night for our anniversary, it was brilliant and will last for some time in the fridge, sipped it while eating lychees, brilliant.

[xylophone]

Quote seajae; "have to admit that I dont mind some of the bordeaux's myself, I remember finding a 10 y/o vintage at a restuarant in Qld, Australia(toowoomba) I was doing up(actually there were 3 bottles of it) back in '81. The new owners had no idea what it was worth and I got them for $15 a piece, they were spectacular. I actually spent a bit of time going through a lot of bottle shops etc back then looking for old wines and found several really classy ones and got them all very cheap. back then there were not a lot of wine drinkers in country Qld, rum was the big thing for most. Found some good Wolf Blass from the 70's(before they started using aluminium with oak chips) along with many others.

I think the french tended to just keep doing what they always had(my family history in France was the Bigot's as in Bigot de Villandry) and the aussies crept up slowly on them, although France does produce the best burgundies, dont really like it myself, prefer the fuller flavours of merlot. Grange is now selling in the thousands per bottle and a few other aussie reds are catching up but in all honesty I am not a grange drinker either(did have some "73's in my cellar though), my tatstes changed, stopped drinking chardonays too although some unwooded ones are still alright. Personally I dont like the newer reds they are bringing out as I dont enjoy the mouth feel they leave, would prefer my 2009 Castlemere but only have 1 bottle left from the vintage. Opened the Beerenauslese last night for our anniversary, it was brilliant and will last for some time in the fridge, sipped it while eating lychees, brilliant".

Good post seajae and sounds like we have similar tastes and experiences – – I too found some older bottles of Bordeaux in a wine shop in New Zealand, which was run by an old guy and he was about to close it down and invited a friend and I to look out the back and see if there was anything we wanted, and believe it or not I found a couple of bottles of Ch Haut Brion and some other classed growths and put them in a cardboard box and asked how much he wanted for them. He said they were from the previous owner and asked for something like $100 for the lot!! There was quite a bit of ullage in a couple of bottles and the lead seals were a little suspect, so I didn't feel too guilty because they may well have been only fit for pouring down the sink.

This wasn't the case as a few of them were good with a couple spoilt, so I put the rest in an auction and was surprised at what they got!!

Also went to look through the warehouse of a major wine importer in Auckland and found some 1980 Ovens Valley Shiraz (this was in about 1989) which they had forgotten about, so I was able to buy that at a good price and although it was only an everyday drinker when released, it was excellent with a bit of age.

I'm not a white wine drinker per se, however, like you, I went through the heavily wooded chardonnay phase in New Zealand and really went off of those wines, and after that if I did drink a Chardonnay, it would be something like a Kim Crawford unoaked Chardonnay or one from Michael Brajovich. Although the New Zealand sauvignon blanc tends to get rave reviews, I rarely drink it.

As for the French, as you have stated, many of them did do "what they have always done" however also many really did decide to get their act together, and as I had already posted I was absolutely amazed to see the high-tech process at some of the Cru Bordeaux producers – – contrast that with the concrete tanks and very old, large wooden foudres of some of the producers down south and you have a typical snapshot of France in my opinion!!

In my early days of wine collecting, I thought Burgundies were overrated, however now that my palate has matured as have I, I do like the more expensive Burgundies, however would never buy one over here for all the reasons mentioned in other posts

The prices I was comparing between Grange and the French classed growth were at release dates because that is probably the fairest way to gauge them, and as you say older Grange can fetch in the many thousands now, and again, like you, although it is a very good wine I have never been truly impressed with it.

Edited May 29, 2013 by xylophone

[seajae]

Quote seajae; "have to admit that I dont mind some of the bordeaux's myself, I remember finding a 10 y/o vintage at a restuarant in Qld, Australia(toowoomba) I was doing up(actually there were 3 bottles of it) back in '81. The new owners had no idea what it was worth and I got them for $15 a piece, they were spectacular. I actually spent a bit of time going through a lot of bottle shops etc back then looking for old wines and found several really classy ones and got them all very cheap. back then there were not a lot of wine drinkers in country Qld, rum was the big thing for most. Found some good Wolf Blass from the 70's(before they started using aluminium with oak chips) along with many others.

I think the french tended to just keep doing what they always had(my family history in France was the Bigot's as in Bigot de Villandry) and the aussies crept up slowly on them, although France does produce the best burgundies, dont really like it myself, prefer the fuller flavours of merlot. Grange is now selling in the thousands per bottle and a few other aussie reds are catching up but in all honesty I am not a grange drinker either(did have some "73's in my cellar though), my tatstes changed, stopped drinking chardonays too although some unwooded ones are still alright. Personally I dont like the newer reds they are bringing out as I dont enjoy the mouth feel they leave, would prefer my 2009 Castlemere but only have 1 bottle left from the vintage. Opened the Beerenauslese last night for our anniversary, it was brilliant and will last for some time in the fridge, sipped it while eating lychees, brilliant".

Good post seajae and sounds like we have similar tastes and experiences – – I too found some older bottles of Bordeaux in a wine shop in New Zealand, which was run by an old guy and he was about to close it down and invited a friend and I to look out the back and see if there was anything we wanted, and believe it or not I found a couple of bottles of Ch Haut Brion and some other classed growths and put them in a cardboard box and asked how much he wanted for them. He said they were from the previous owner and asked for something like $100 for the lot!! There was quite a bit of ullage in a couple of bottles and the lead seals were a little suspect, so I didn't feel too guilty because they may well have been only fit for pouring down the sink.

This wasn't the case as a few of them were good with a couple spoilt, so I put the rest in an auction and was surprised at what they got!!

Also went to look through the warehouse of a major wine importer in Auckland and found some 1980 Ovens Valley Shiraz (this was in about 1989) which they had forgotten about, so I was able to buy that at a good price and although it was only an everyday drinker when released, it was excellent with a bit of age.

I'm not a white wine drinker per se, however, like you, I went through the heavily wooded chardonnay phase in New Zealand and really went off of those wines, and after that if I did drink a Chardonnay, it would be something like a Kim Crawford unoaked Chardonnay or one from Michael Brajovich. Although the New Zealand sauvignon blanc tends to get rave reviews, I rarely drink it.

As for the French, as you have stated, many of them did do "what they have always done" however also many really did decide to get their act together, and as I had already posted I was absolutely amazed to see the high-tech process at some of the Cru Bordeaux producers – – contrast that with the concrete tanks and very old, large wooden foudres of some of the producers down south and you have a typical snapshot of France in my opinion!!

In my early days of wine collecting, I thought Burgundies were overrated, however now that my palate has matured as have I, I do like the more expensive Burgundies, however would never buy one over here for all the reasons mentioned in other posts

The prices I was comparing between Grange and the French classed growth were at release dates because that is probably the fairest way to gauge them, and as you say older Grange can fetch in the many thousands now, and again, like you, although it is a very good wine I have never been truly impressed with it.

Mate, its great to be able to talk to somone that actually knows what they are on about, havent talked about wines for a long time. I dont really like the sav blancs either but I found some Tua Tua merlot from NZ that was absolutely brilliant and I still have 1 bottle left. If I bought Grange by its production year tatse I would never buy it as it is not that great, it needs a lot of years on it and you have to get a good year at that, luckily '73 was a good one but my brother in law gave it to me for some work I did for him so it was not a big issue, shiraz is definitely not a favourite due to the pepperishness although I have found the occasional great one in small vinyards around Mudgee and further north. Havent really got into the wine over here but I will drink my collection bottles occasionally, think its the heat, really changes the flavours and kills the after taste, plus when you eat cheese with the wine the cheese goes yuk very quickly and ruins the enjoyment, add to that the fact that it is very hard to get a decent cut of steak to eat with a red and it sums it up.

Edited May 29, 2013 by seajae

[xylophone]

Quote seajae: "Mate, its great to be able to talk to somone that actually knows what they are on about, havent talked about wines for a long time. I dont really like the sav blancs either but I found some Tua Tua merlot from NZ that was absolutely brilliant and I still have 1 bottle left. If I bought Grange by its production year tatse I would never buy it as it is not that great, it needs a lot of years on it and you have to get a good year at that, luckily '73 was a good one but my brother in law gave it to me for some work I did for him so it was not a big issue, shiraz is definitely not a favourite due to the pepperishness although I have found the occasional great one in small vinyards around Mudgee and further north. Havent really got into the wine over here but I will drink my collection bottles occasionally, think its the heat, really changes the flavours and kills the after taste, plus when you eat cheese with the wine the cheese goes yuk very quickly and ruins the enjoyment, add to that the fact that it is very hard to get a decent cut of steak to eat with a red and it sums it up".

Also good to talk to you because you know your wine. My main objective in buying Grange when it was 1st released was to lay down for 10 years or more and when bought at the release price, it was obviously at its cheapest!! Only did it for a while because as I said I became a little bit disenchanted with it.

Now Syrah was my favourite grape variety as expressed in the wines of the Cote Rotie and Hermitage because after a few years in bottle, they really did have complex aromas and flavours. However I have become increasingly disappointed with many of the Australian versions because they are simply too big and alcoholic to develop the complexity even if left for a few years. The huge extraction of tannins and high alcohol content does nothing for the wines and leaves them a little dumb for many years, thereby spoiling my enjoyment. So I have come to the conclusion that I will seek out more Australian Cabernet Sauvignon wines to try, and if I could find some along the lines of the Leuwin Estate Cabernet Sauvignons of the late 1980s, then I would be very happy.

As for wine bought over here, it really is a lottery I'm afraid and it makes it hard for us wine enthusiasts to find something good to drink with our favourite food.

Finally, I considered bringing my wine cellar over here when I came, but transporting 500 bottles of fine wine to a country which knows nothing about it, then possibly getting hit with huge customs duties, not to mention how It was treated during the shipping and storage, so decided to sell some of it and drink the rest, which I succeeded in doing, and for the record you may call me a philistine as there were occasions when I was drinking a Pommard Clos des Epenots with a pizza!!!

[eezergood]

I'm glad to hear someone else also finds some of the Aussie reds too big! This get together sounds very promising

[jocko]

I'm glad to hear someone else also finds some of the Aussie reds too big! This get together sounds very promising

Now all you wine experts dont be putting tooooo much info on each post i want this topic to last .

So break it down a wee bit S'il vous plait

[xylophone]

I'm glad to hear someone else also finds some of the Aussie reds too big! This get together sounds very promising

Tuesday evening I met up with a friend from Tasmania and he had brought over a bottle of Penfold's Thomas Hyland Adelaide Shiraz 2010 to share, and as we were the only wine drinkers in our small group I relished the thought of getting into a decent Aussie red.

When he poured the wine it was inky black and I had thoughts of it taking time to open up, although we were lucky because the wine glasses were the large variety and this would help with the process. It had been chilled a little, so there was much swilling of wine in the glass as well warming the glass with one's hands. The food was a while coming so this process went on for a time, however no matter how much we did it and how hard we tried there was absolutely nothing on the nose, and that was the opinion of the others in the party – – it gave up nothing on the nose.

As for the taste, well the tannins were huge although slightly dry and just approachable, but the taste or aromas of anything resembling spice and black pepper, black cherry, cinnamon, plums and whatever else Shiraz is famous for in Australia, weren't evident.

So there we were looking at this big, black, brooding beast of a wine waiting for it to thrill our palates and it never did, even over the period of one and a half hours. I had looked at the alcohol content and it was 14.5% so I knew I was in for a few dead brain cells the next morning especially as there was more imbibing to be done after the meal had finished.

I have had experience before with wines going through a "dumb" phase, which many wines do within the 1st few years of bottling, however I have also known a few which have never come out of that phase, staying just like that for many years until such time as they fade away without ever realising their potential, and I wondered if this was such a wine?

I would love it if there was a little more elegance and finesse in wines such as these, giving up more complex aromas and tastes as they age, however I don't think that some of the Australian winemakers are capable of it unfortunately.

[seajae]

Quote seajae: "Mate, its great to be able to talk to somone that actually knows what they are on about, havent talked about wines for a long time. I dont really like the sav blancs either but I found some Tua Tua merlot from NZ that was absolutely brilliant and I still have 1 bottle left. If I bought Grange by its production year tatse I would never buy it as it is not that great, it needs a lot of years on it and you have to get a good year at that, luckily '73 was a good one but my brother in law gave it to me for some work I did for him so it was not a big issue, shiraz is definitely not a favourite due to the pepperishness although I have found the occasional great one in small vinyards around Mudgee and further north. Havent really got into the wine over here but I will drink my collection bottles occasionally, think its the heat, really changes the flavours and kills the after taste, plus when you eat cheese with the wine the cheese goes yuk very quickly and ruins the enjoyment, add to that the fact that it is very hard to get a decent cut of steak to eat with a red and it sums it up".

Also good to talk to you because you know your wine. My main objective in buying Grange when it was 1st released was to lay down for 10 years or more and when bought at the release price, it was obviously at its cheapest!! Only did it for a while because as I said I became a little bit disenchanted with it.

Now Syrah was my favourite grape variety as expressed in the wines of the Cote Rotie and Hermitage because after a few years in bottle, they really did have complex aromas and flavours. However I have become increasingly disappointed with many of the Australian versions because they are simply too big and alcoholic to develop the complexity even if left for a few years. The huge extraction of tannins and high alcohol content does nothing for the wines and leaves them a little dumb for many years, thereby spoiling my enjoyment. So I have come to the conclusion that I will seek out more Australian Cabernet Sauvignon wines to try, and if I could find some along the lines of the Leuwin Estate Cabernet Sauvignons of the late 1980s, then I would be very happy.

As for wine bought over here, it really is a lottery I'm afraid and it makes it hard for us wine enthusiasts to find something good to drink with our favourite food.

Finally, I considered bringing my wine cellar over here when I came, but transporting 500 bottles of fine wine to a country which knows nothing about it, then possibly getting hit with huge customs duties, not to mention how It was treated during the shipping and storage, so decided to sell some of it and drink the rest, which I succeeded in doing, and for the record you may call me a philistine as there were occasions when I was drinking a Pommard Clos des Epenots with a pizza!!!

hahahahaha, mate I understand totally, I did the similar actually, I only brought over a couple of dozen specials I had that would not be replaceable, They are still good after 12 months or should I say the ones I have opened have been.