Starting new house

[boosta]

Well if you judge your lawyer and her firm to be competent and trustworthy, then pay for their advice and follow it.

However in my opinion let them know very clearly that you aren't interested in the creative workarounds and want your property to be protected by following both the letter and the spirit of the law.

If you have a Thai that you know you can trust to hold it for you, and then you lease it from them, the value of the property should not be affected as long as they and you agree to everything - which is of course what I mean by trust.

From what you're saying I would very much advise you not think of the property as a financial investment, only a place for you to live and save rent.

I would go through the legal issues ASAP, since once you find out the risks involved you may well decide it's better to just walk away and chalk up your currently relatively small losses to experience.

Foreigners can't practice law in Thailand can they ?

-

I've met dozens, and not just employed by the internationally practices.

I've also met several bargirls who were studying to be "lawyers", and one that used to be one but found sex work more lucrative.

There aren't the same regulations nor protections, nor even definitions of "practicing law" that may apply back home.

Officially pursuing a case in court and appearing before a judge are one very small part of what firms charge for.

[kikoman]

As I stated earlier, that there are a lot of negative people on this forum.

But I see that you seem not to be well versed on Thai law, I am not either.

You need to further your knowledge before you place anymore money in to your house!

As you do not have a Thai partner that causes some concern to me, as to how you can own this house.

As I stated I am not well versed in Thai law but I know that a non-Thai cannot own property in Thailand! To my understanding a non-Thai can buy a condo in their name or though the Incorporation of a company and the company can own property.

I built a home for my wife, she owns the property I can recoup some money invested in the house as my share of "community property" in the event of a divorce but can never own the land, as we have discussed this in the event of my wife's death and the land will go to my two stepdaughters.

Please take the added precaution of finding out the legality of your contract before paying anymore money on it.

Cheers:

[simple1]

The lawyer is not Thai, she is falang and works at a very high end, international law firm in Bangkok. She is just saying there is the law and then the Thai factor which can skew the judgement.

If you put the land in a Thai person's name and then lease it, would it not decrease the value of the house if you chose to sell it? Also, what if the Thai land owner doesn't agree to sell the land concurrently with the house?

I never had any concerns when I started this as I just assumed like most people that the land would go in my wife's name.

You do understand that a foreigner cannot actually practice law in Thailand, they can only provide consultancy services. As said previously who currently owns the land. Can you confirm that you have the standard 30 year lease registered with the Land Office. I trust you are familiar with Usufructs in Thailand. Just in case you can cross check your understanding; take a look at:

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php

[Tmymaimee]

Yes, I am familiar with usufruct as one option. She only advised me against this option because of the risks but really, I'm free to pursue that if I choose.

What I am thinking more about is a usufruct with a Thai friend who lives in Canada. She owns property here and is willing to consider a trade whereby she owns the Thai land and I own the Canadian land and we have a usufruct for each other. The land values are very close to each other. She said she would do this for me as she knew my circumstances with my divorce and feels I was treated unjustly and wants to help set things right.

This way we are both protected as we each own the other person's land and I have the Canadian security in place to protect me at lease renewal. The Canadian lawyer said no problem for this arrangement and about $1500 to draw up.

I have no idea about foreigners practicing law in Thailand but the firm I went to http://www.siam-legal.com/ had quite a number of non Thai staff. The lawyer I used was definitely a licensed lawyer according to her business card.

[jimmym40]

Wow, seems to me you will be in for a big surprise after all is done. From what we hear of your situation as it stands, my guess would be that it's possible you may never get to set foot in the door of "your" house. Doesn't the hint of your international law firm lawyer have you a bit worried? Why didn't you delay the house build until you are physically in Thailand and seek additional advice since your marital status changed/or is still in limbo. The legal process is mostly flawed and even when due judgments are made by the courts, there is no entity to enforce those judgments. Some may disagree, but I know of several friends that got burned big time.

Just be careful who you trust and what people/lawyers tell you.

[Ticketmaster]

You say you started your dream house and you will be here in October. I did not read all the posts above and maybe this has been said: YOU HAD BETTER DAMN WELL BE HERE WHILE YOU HOUSE IS BEING BUILT!!! That is rule number one for building a house in Thailand where skill levels are all over the board, there is no professional licensing for the trades and no enforced building codes.

Almost every heart rending story I've heard about building a house (dream to nightmare) involved the owner being away for a while. BE THERE! Stop the work now and continue it when you get here. Don't hurry. You can't say you haven't been warned.

[Tmymaimee]

You say you started your dream house and you will be here in October. I did not read all the posts above and maybe this has been said: YOU HAD BETTER dam_n WELL BE HERE WHILE YOU HOUSE IS BEING BUILT!!! That is rule number one for building a house in Thailand where skill levels are all over the board, there is no professional licensing for the trades and no enforced building codes.

Almost every heart rending story I've heard about building a house (dream to nightmare) involved the owner being away for a while. BE THERE! Stop the work now and continue it when you get here. Don't hurry. You can't say you haven't been warned.

I couldn't agree more..not only Thailand, but anywhere. I have someone I trust 100% every day, all day overseeing every aspect of construction onsite. I trust him more than myself as he is very experienced in cement construction and has built many homes in Thailand to a very high standard. I've seen his finished homes and they are as well built as anything I've seen in Canada. He is sourcing all the materials, hiring workers and in charge of everything. If he wasn't there, I would not even consider building something there unless I was on site everyday.

[keeniau96]

As said, non-Thais cannot own land, period.

The workarounds are questionable, the corporate one is very much subject to Thai gov't enforcement of the rules, and they have had occasional crackdowns. My first house was the corp version and it was a major pain in the butt re the accounting and tax filings.

Currently my Thai wife owns the house, and I trust her 100% and have for 12 years now. That's far more than I can say for anybody else I have met here.

The dual usufruct swap seems like the best idea I have ever seen here, and seems well secured for both sides. Kudos to the originator of that one.

[colin2]

Best of luck. Don't let the doomsayers and barstool sexpats of TV get you down!

Have you seen his username ?

Dont let this lot Blow your wood wind or pluck your strings !.

[rayongchelsea]

It's not doomsday.

I have just heard through a friend a former colleague from the phillipinnes doing exactly the same thing as the op in Phuket..he was advised as many have here that he is not doing proper due diligence and protecting himself. Lost over 1 million dollars.

People just get carried away with this "dream house scenario" and ignore the realities of dealing in real estate in Thailand.

Why is he using a farang lawyer?

Who is this person he trusts 100% but doesn't appear to live here.

I am sorry but this just makes no sense on any level, when significant amounts of money are involved.

The least trust worthy individuals anywhere are " developers" outside of the main players...this would be the case in any country..so why is the op doing this..because the emotional pull of a dream home, which itself will depreciate over time, be probably be poorly built and have a lot of maintenance issues..

Rent in the complex, wait..experience the environment, neighbors, who runs the complex, is it well maintained, what happens when the developer leaves..

Frankly, the op is abroad, not supervising the build, just sending money over...RENT for awhile..what is the urgency..

[HairyMilton]

The lawyer is not Thai, she is falang and works at a very high end, international law firm in Bangkok. She is just saying there is the law and then the Thai factor which can skew the judgement.

If you put the land in a Thai person's name and then lease it, would it not decrease the value of the house if you chose to sell it? Also, what if the Thai land owner doesn't agree to sell the land concurrently with the house?

I never had any concerns when I started this as I just assumed like most people that the land would go in my wife's name.

Foreigners can't practice law in Thailand can they ?

Yes, they can but I believe they have to be represented by Thai colleagues if a court appearance is required.

[garyk]

This is a very common thing here. I am very curious how it turn's out. When everything is settled let us know how you are faring.

Best of luck.

[simple1]

The lawyer is not Thai, she is falang and works at a very high end, international law firm in Bangkok. She is just saying there is the law and then the Thai factor which can skew the judgement.

If you put the land in a Thai person's name and then lease it, would it not decrease the value of the house if you chose to sell it? Also, what if the Thai land owner doesn't agree to sell the land concurrently with the house?

I never had any concerns when I started this as I just assumed like most people that the land would go in my wife's name.

Foreigners can't practice law in Thailand can they ?

Yes, they can but I believe they have to be represented by Thai colleagues if a court appearance is required.

A foreign lawyer cannot represent his/her client in court. However, he/she can perform legal advisory services if he/she has obtained a work permit for the advisory services.

Full licensing

A foreign lawyer cannot obtain a full licence to practise law in this jurisdiction. The relevant impediment is: According to the Lawyers Act VE 2528 (AD 1985), section 35, being a Thai national is one of the required qualifications for registration and obtaining the licence to become a lawyer.

[slipperylobster]

Let me present my own lack of expertise on this subject. Can the owner of the new hou (he who pays for the house to actually be built) lease the land (even for 30 years) and have on that lease permission from the actual land owner to transfer the lease to another party.along with the house? For example, in Hawaii, many homes/apartments are on leaseheld land. You know how long you have left on that land before the lease expires or gets renegotiated. A home owner can resell his house as long as the next buyer is aware of the leasehold land.

Question 2.....how about building a series of homes..say 4, and make them condo units. I understand a farang can only own 49 percent...but at least you could sell/keep one of the units for yourself..... Sounds silly and expensive...but what if

[TravelerEastWest]

The lawyer is not Thai, she is falang and works at a very high end, international law firm in Bangkok. She is just saying there is the law and then the Thai factor which can skew the judgement.

If you put the land in a Thai person's name and then lease it, would it not decrease the value of the house if you chose to sell it? Also, what if the Thai land owner doesn't agree to sell the land concurrently with the house?

I never had any concerns when I started this as I just assumed like most people that the land would go in my wife's name.

Foreigners can't practice law in Thailand can they ?

Yes, they can but I believe they have to be represented by Thai colleagues if a court appearance is required.

A foreign lawyer cannot represent his/her client in court. However, he/she can perform legal advisory services if he/she has obtained a work permit for the advisory services.

Full licensing

A foreign lawyer cannot obtain a full licence to practise law in this jurisdiction. The relevant impediment is: According to the Lawyers Act VE 2528 (AD 1985), section 35, being a Thai national is one of the required qualifications for registration and obtaining the licence to become a lawyer.

Aren't there a small number of non Thai lawyers that have been grandfathered in (licensed when the rules were different)?

Or is this an urban myth?

[bigbamboo]

Anyone else smell a 'lat'?

[gamini]

I think the most you can expect is a 30 year lease. Be careful, foreign real estate agents are worse than than Thais in my opinion. The whole property busines is riddled with conmen.

[comserve]

At the moment I am open to any ideas on the most secure arrangement for "usage" of the land. The developer currently owns the land and will give me title after the house is complete as I am making payments as he progresses.

One of the biggest problems I have is my lawyer says she can advise me on the law but then says the actual interpretation in a courtroom can differ should problems arise later on. She also says civil proceedings can draw out for a long time so make sure everything is clear heading in. She will not even contemplate a Thai partner to own the land with a leaseback because of possible issues on the lease renewal.

All my friends rent around Bangkok so they can leave without any complications. I started this house idea with my ex wife and there was never an issue as she would own the land in her name. We never contemplated divorce and now I'm on my own as far as continuing with this property. Title to the land is still with the developer / builder.

can only give you my experience of buying a new, spec built house, in Thailand.

Mine was a two level house so needed a pump to get water to the upper bathroom.

When we bought the property it had never had water through the house so the plumbing had never been tested.

It took me over three months to get the plumbing going. For instance, the upstairs toilet systern was just sitting there. Looked like it was installed but was not. Many of the glued joints leaked and since that three months have had under concrete water pipe spring a leak, water pipe inside a concrete beam leak causing plaster ceiling to be re-fitted & upstairs bathroom to be re-plumbed with external pipes.

We also have an outside bathroom which has a plumbing leak under the floor, so that is used as a storage room.

We had a water leak in the tile roof, caused by inadequate flashing on a hip joint. Have not been able to fix that but since a large factory has been built next door, that shelters our house from severe storms, so fixes the leak.

Good job that I could do all this plumbing work myself.

Be aware also that you may not be able to have a Thai partner own the land & you lease it back. It all depends on the attitude of the local head man at your local authority. I tried that and he deemed that he would not register it as it was not an arms length transaction.

I would definitely recommend that you sort out the land ownership thing BEFORE you proceed further with your house building.

Let me add, other than the plumbing problems, the house construction was very good.

[gleeglee]

The lawyer is not Thai, she is falang and works at a very high end, international law firm in Bangkok. She is just saying there is the law and then the Thai factor which can skew the judgement.

If you put the land in a Thai person's name and then lease it, would it not decrease the value of the house if you chose to sell it? Also, what if the Thai land owner doesn't agree to sell the land concurrently with the house?

I never had any concerns when I started this as I just assumed like most people that the land would go in my wife's name.

A foreign national cannot practice law in Thailand, how many times have we heard these stories, Please go and get some more advice from an English speaking Thai Lawyer. In my opinion you are in for a big fall

[boosta]

A foreign lawyer cannot represent his/her client in court. However, he/she can perform legal advisory services if he/she has obtained a work permit for the advisory services.

Full licensing

A foreign lawyer cannot obtain a full licence to practise law in this jurisdiction. The relevant impediment is: According to the Lawyers Act VE 2528 (AD 1985), section 35, being a Thai national is one of the required qualifications for registration and obtaining the licence to become a lawyer.

A foreign national cannot practice law in Thailand, how many times have we heard these stories,

-

There are dozens of law firms that employ foreign attorneys, some of them the top ones used by MNCs, rates the same as London and NY too. They of course have work permits, registered as consultants and technically I suppose they do not legally "practice law" in that they don't go before courts or sign off on court documents.

They certainly are "practicing law" in the real world though as far as normal people interpret the phrase.

As I said I've met several lawyers that used to be bargirls, it doesn't take much to qualify here, and their English is excellent.

[boosta]

Let me present my own lack of expertise on this subject. Can the owner of the new hou (he who pays for the house to actually be built) lease the land (even for 30 years) and have on that lease permission from the actual land owner to transfer the lease to another party.along with the house? For example, in Hawaii, many homes/apartments are on leaseheld land. You know how long you have left on that land before the lease expires or gets renegotiated. A home owner can resell his house as long as the next buyer is aware of the leasehold land.

Question 2.....how about building a series of homes..say 4, and make them condo units. I understand a farang can only own 49 percent...but at least you could sell/keep one of the units for yourself..... Sounds silly and expensive...but what if

-

Yes exactly this situation you describe, and leases can be transferred, but a better arrangement would of course be for the new lessor to start a new 30-year one. But you have to trust that the land owner will agree to that, it can't be guaranteed by contract ahead of time or it would be interpreted as a workaround the intent of the law.

A Thai (company) can develop condos, but the legal overhead probably makes that prohibitive for such a small number of units.

If you in effect control the underlying Thai owner anyway you might as well just straight rent it right?

But they have to show they're wealthy enough, used their own money not yours.

Really get advice from a trusted law firm on these matters, before actually spending money on anything else.

[nachiket]

I will be moving to Thailand in October to start a new life and no more snow:).

Congrats and welcome!

[HAL9000]

Subscribed

[how241]

Well done to make your dream come true.

Best of luck.

+1

[kevvy]

I have no Thai partner and intend to keep it that way for now. My Thai lawyer can put the land under my name as its less than the 1 rai maximum for foreign ownership.

No he can't you silly boy, you have been conned.

Foreigners cannot own ANY land in Thailand, not even postage stamp size.

your lawyer will have more right to the land than you

[Tatsujin]

Well I have to say you're open to a lot of ridicule and abuse for putting money into something without doing the proper research about the laws here.

First of all how can you be sure you can trust your lawyer? Many here are scam artists engaged in systematic fraud of foreigners in collusion with corrupt government officials, including at the land registry. The absolute worst areas for this phenomenon are those most popular with foreigners, especially Phuket, Samui and Pattaya/Chonburi.

Many many foreigners think they have control over their land under various "creative" workarounds, but if the government ever decides to really "crack down" and enforce the actual Thai law, they risk losing everything they've invested.

If you have Thais you know you can really trust to own the land on your behalf, then it's do-able with the right information and advice, but getting that is also risky and expensive.

From what I've learned the best way is to lease the land from the Thai owner for a maximum of 30 years. Everyone will tell you that a contract rider that extends for another 30 years is enforceable but it's not, only subject to the owner's agreement after the first 30 years are up.

You may well get all kinds of different advice from others, but do take it all with a grain of salt, especially if they work in (or get income from) the real estate industry.

Best of luck!

+1

[BradinAsia]

Whereustay...

In your original post you said you've been saving for years to realize your dream.

That's very commendable, everyone can understand that.

But what nobody understands is why you'd come here and commit a considerable

amount of your hard-earned savings to start building a house on land which you can

never own.

I'm not a negative person, but what you are doing frankly boggles the mind.

All we can do is hope and pray that you quickly learn your huge error and stop all

this before you have lost everything.

[khunPer]

Good to to see you are doing it right – the Thai way – having blessing for the first post. Foreigners who forget that, may often have problems with their new house

Wish you good luck with your new house and life, welcome to LoS

[mikemac]

Good luck with your venture Whereustay, hope it works out well for you. Some of the advice you been given on this thread is worth gold, read it and take it in. Wish I had been given similar advice when I first came to Thailand, perhaps I would have done better.

Reading about farangs losing everything to their Thai wives (it can happen to anyone in any country) reminded me of something one of my mates back in Australia said to me years ago. After a series of broken marriages and lost homes he declared he was going to streamline things and never marry again, just meet a bitch he didn't like and buy her a house.

Chok Dee

[Postmaster]

Well my friend, you have had some good advice from seasoned experienced farangs here and i think you should come back to Thai Visa every step of the way.

Good luck in the future.