They'd got on perfectly well with the Jews living there over the past centuries, but to have millions of them suddenly plonked in their midst was too much. The whole ongoing dispute stems from that.

Actually, Arabs started attacking the Jews well before Hitler, World War 2 or mass immigration. They were resentful because the Jews could afford to buy land. When large numbers did arrive, it just became easier to fight back.

Let's not forget some facts about the war either.

1. The British did all they could to stop Jews from Europe fated for death camps to escape to their territory in Palestine.

2. The Americans also largely blocked the same doomed refugees from escaping there. That is one of the more unknown and shameful stories from the war.

3. The most powerful Palestinian leader of the time, the Grand Mufti, was in Berlin during the war and actively promoting genocide of European Jews.

I agree the war isn't the entire story.

While the overwhelming bulk of the blame for the holocaust goes to the Nazis, the British, Americans, and Arabs played their part as well.

They'd got on perfectly well with the Jews living there over the past centuries, but to have millions of them suddenly plonked in their midst was too much. The whole ongoing dispute stems from that.

Actually, Arabs started attacking the Jews well before Hitler, World War 2 or mass immigration. They were resentful because the Jews could afford to buy land. When large numbers did arrive, it just became easier to fight back.

Let's not forget some facts about the war either.

1. The British did all they could to stop Jews from Europe fated for death camps to escape to their territory in Palestine.

2. The Americans also largely blocked the same doomed refugees from escaping there. That is one of the more unknown and shameful stories from the war.

3. The most powerful Palestinian leader of the time, the Grand Mufti, was in Berlin during the war and actively promoting genocide of European Jews.

I agree the war isn't the entire story.

While the overwhelming bulk of the blame for the holocaust goes to the Nazis, the British, Americans, and Arabs played their part as well.

I always assumed the holocaust ended with WWII when the Nazis were no longer in power.

How could the Brits and Americans have played a part in it by slowing down the immigration process to Israel AFTER the war ended?

I'm prtty sure that he means during the war.

They'd got on perfectly well with the Jews living there over the past centuries, but to have millions of them suddenly plonked in their midst was too much. The whole ongoing dispute stems from that.

Actually, Arabs started attacking the Jews well before Hitler, World War 2 or mass immigration. They were resentful because the Jews could afford to buy land. When large numbers did arrive, it just became easier to fight back.

Let's not forget some facts about the war either.

1. The British did all they could to stop Jews from Europe fated for death camps to escape to their territory in Palestine.

2. The Americans also largely blocked the same doomed refugees from escaping there. That is one of the more unknown and shameful stories from the war.

3. The most powerful Palestinian leader of the time, the Grand Mufti, was in Berlin during the war and actively promoting genocide of European Jews.

I agree the war isn't the entire story.

While the overwhelming bulk of the blame for the holocaust goes to the Nazis, the British, Americans, and Arabs played their part as well.

I always assumed the holocaust ended with WWII when the Nazis were no longer in power.

How could the Brits and Americans have played a part in it by slowing down the immigration process to Israel AFTER the war ended?

Although the main culprits for the treatment of German Jews were their fellow countrymen, both before and during the war, the British were also complicit in not allowing many of the kindertransport into the UK before the war. Adult Jews were also discouraged, even when they had obtained exit passes from Germany. Sorry I can't give any references at the moment, but it is family folklore that the British government of the day made it as difficult to get into the UK as the German authorities made it difficult to leave Germany.

And it was known before WWII that camps were being set up in Germany and Austria to detain people regarded as inimical to the ideals of the everlasting Reich. Maybe it was not firm knowledge that the exterminations were as large as was known after the war, in the late 1930s, but that is not the point. The UK borders were virtually closed to German Jews long before the war started.

Americans side with Israel, but want the USA to butt out of the negotiations.

Many more Americans continue to side with Israel rather than the Palestinian Authority, but – with President Obama’s first visit there days away – most also prefer to leave peace negotiations to the two protagonists, rather than having the United States take the lead.

Fifty-five percent in this ABC News/Washington Post poll sympathize more with Israel, vs. 9 percent who side more with the Palestinian Authority, with the rest favoring neither, or undecided. It’s been a similar gap for many years, including polling back to the 1980s testing Israel vs. the Arab nations of the Middle East. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/03/more-americans-sympathize-with-israel-dont-want-u-s-to-lead-peace-talks/

Let's not forget some facts about the war either.

1. The British did all they could to stop Jews from Europe fated for death camps to escape to their territory in Palestine.

2. The Americans also largely blocked the same doomed refugees from escaping there. That is one of the more unknown and shameful stories from the war.

3. The most powerful Palestinian leader of the time, the Grand Mufti, was in Berlin during the war and actively promoting genocide of European Jews.

I agree the war isn't the entire story.

While the overwhelming bulk of the blame for the holocaust goes to the Nazis, the British, Americans, and Arabs played their part as well.

I always assumed the holocaust ended with WWII when the Nazis were no longer in power.

How could the Brits and Americans have played a part in it by slowing down the immigration process to Israel AFTER the war ended?

JT is right! the Brits did indeed slow down immigration to Israel before, during and long after the war ended.

Finally, the rise of Nazism and the increasing persecution of Jews in the 1930s led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews. This was a major cause of the Arab revolt of 1936–1939 and led the British to introduce restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine with the White Paper of 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine.

The White Paper of 1939, also known as the MacDonald White Paper after Malcolm MacDonald, the British Colonial Secretary who presided over it, was a policy paper issued by the British government under Neville Chamberlain in which the idea of partitioning the Mandate for Palestine, as recommended in the Peel Commission Report of 1937, was abandoned in favour of creating an independent Palestine governed by Palestinian Arabs and Jews in proportion to their numbers in the population by 1939 (section I). A limit of 75,000 Jewish immigrants was set for the five-year period 1940-1944, consisting of a regular yearly quota of 10,000, and a supplementary quota of 25,000, spread out over the same period, to cover refugee emergencies. After this cut-off date, further immigration would depend on the permission of the Arab majority (section II). Restrictions were also placed on the rights of Jews to buy land from Arabs (section III).

The White Paper was published as Cmd 6019. It was approved by the House of Commons on 23 May 1939 by 268 votes to 179.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939

 

They'd got on perfectly well with the Jews living there over the past centuries, but to have millions of them suddenly plonked in their midst was too much. The whole ongoing dispute stems from that.

Actually, Arabs started attacking the Jews well before Hitler, World War 2 or mass immigration. They were resentful because the Jews could afford to buy land. When large numbers did arrive, it just became easier to fight back.

Let's not forget some facts about the war either.

1. The British did all they could to stop Jews from Europe fated for death camps to escape to their territory in Palestine.

2. The Americans also largely blocked the same doomed refugees from escaping there. That is one of the more unknown and shameful stories from the war.

3. The most powerful Palestinian leader of the time, the Grand Mufti, was in Berlin during the war and actively promoting genocide of European Jews.

I agree the war isn't the entire story.

While the overwhelming bulk of the blame for the holocaust goes to the Nazis, the British, Americans, and Arabs played their part as well.

I always assumed the holocaust ended with WWII when the Nazis were no longer in power.

How could the Brits and Americans have played a part in it by slowing down the immigration process to Israel AFTER the war ended?

 

Holocaust went on long before WW2, and according to New York Times,

could have been reduced by Great Britain, had they allowed mass immigration.

Americans side with Israel, but want the USA to butt out of the negotiations.

Many more Americans continue to side with Israel rather than the Palestinian Authority, but – with President Obama’s first visit there days away – most also prefer to leave peace negotiations to the two protagonists, rather than having the United States take the lead.

Fifty-five percent in this ABC News/Washington Post poll sympathize more with Israel, vs. 9 percent who side more with the Palestinian Authority, with the rest favoring neither, or undecided. It’s been a similar gap for many years, including polling back to the 1980s testing Israel vs. the Arab nations of the Middle East. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/03/more-americans-sympathize-with-israel-dont-want-u-s-to-lead-peace-talks/

Anything to do with the HUGE Jewish lobby in Washington and the propaganda they pay for?

It has a lot more to do with being a Western-style democracy in an area full of currupt dictatorships than any conspiracy theories.

Holocaust went on long before WW2, and according to New York Times,

could have been reduced by Great Britain, had they allowed mass immigration.

Not even mass immigration - just accepting those who applied for entry would have helped many German Jews, but it would not have helped those from Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Austria and the rest of Europe. There were camps in place long before war broke out, but these were detention/labour camps, rather than the slaughterhouses that followed Eichmann's schemes, developed during the war years.

But Britain, or rather the ruling politicians of the time, of all parties, denied entry almost universally - because anti-semitism was rife among the political classes. In my experience it still is.

The reports speak specifically about the mass exterminations in Russia and Ukraine,

long before anyone knew anything about Hitler.

The reports speak specifically about the mass exterminations in Russia and Ukraine,

long before anyone knew anything about Hitler.

You write of New York Times reports, but do not state any particular issues, nor give links.

There have been pogroms in Russia and what is now Poland since the great immigrations of Jews to those areas many centuries ago. These would not have led to 'mass immigrations' to the UK or the rest of Europe at any times. There were large waves of immigration to the US in the dying years of the nineteenth century, at which time there was also a quite considerable intake to the UK. This period also saw the foundation of Zionism and immigration to what is now Israel. This was nothing to do with the holocaust, excepting only that it formed a part of the anti-semitic thinking that permeated all European upper classes for centuries and was one of the foundation blocks of Hitler's rise to power.

During the nineteenth century the first mass emigrations took place from Eastern Europe, which had been a haven of refuge after the persecutions of the Holy Office in Spain, from the mid-fifteenth century onwards. But there was resentment among the lesser orders within this area, which led to unremitting pogroms and - when travel became acceptable and affordable - emigration. The main destination was the newly independent United States, but for those who could not immediately afford the entire journey, or those who were cheated of their fare by the American ship-owners, a stop-over in the UK or France was necessary. Many who took this stop-over liked what they saw and stayed, rather than risk another journey to an unknown land.

Remember that, although England expelled Jews in the thirteenth century, we had had a returning from the mid-sixteenth century. Very small admittedly, and not treated very well, but sufficiently accepted that Benjamin Disraeli, whose father had converted to Christianity, was elected Prime Minister in the mid-nineteenth century. Prejudice in the UK was still quite frequently encountered for another hundred years and can still be found in many areas - e.g. certain golf clubs, other private clubs, political parties and the like - to this day. It is illegal, but that doesn't mean that it's been legislated out of existence.

But without seeing the NYT articles to which you refer, I would take issue with their apparent premise.

UKRAINIAN JEWS AIM TO STOP POGROMS

This fact that the population of 6,000,000 souls in Ukrainia and in Poland have received notice

through action and by word that they are going to be completely exterminated-

this fact stands before the whole world as the paramount issue of the present day

-The new york times, Monday September 8, 1919.

BEGS AMERICA SAVE 6,000,000 IN RUSSIA

Copyright, 1921, by The Chicago Tribune Co.

BERLIN, July 19. -Russia's 6,000,000 Jews are facing extermination by massacre.

As the famine is spreading, the counter-revolutionary movement is gaining and the Soviet's control is waning.

This statement is borne out by official documents presented to the berlin Bovernment,

which shows that numerous pogroms are raging in all parts of Russia and the Ukraine.

-The New york times, Wednesday, July 20, 1921

AMERICANS APPEAL FOR JEWISH REFUGE

The petition, in expressing the opinion of enlightened Christian leadership in the United States,

favoring a larger Jewish immigration into Palestine, stressed the intolerable sufferings of the millions

of Jews in "the European holocaust."

......

Great Britain has it within her power to throw open the gates and let the victimized and persecuted Jews

escaping from the Eurpoean holocaust.

-The New york times, Sunday, May 31, 1936.

Holocaust started at the end of WW1, nod how 6 million where destined for extermination as early as 1919

This source may interest you, regarding Jewry in England during the Middle Ages.

http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Cecil.Roth/A.History.of.the.Jews.in.England/P.05.Anglo-Jewry.in.the.Middle.Ages.htm

(Jews not allowed to live in Scotland at this time, nor in Wales - excepting only the large towns under English control)

I believe the jews became hunted because christianity was a badly broken religion,

who would not allow money lending for interest.

Well with no profit, why in gods name would i take only risk by lending out money, but no profit ?

Yet banking was needed then and now, and the only entity with a common sense with regard to

eco-religion was jews, so they were the only way for financing whatever.

Yet the messed up christianity condemned it, and public cattle along with aristocrats

went along with the religion nonsense, causing a general condemnation/hate of jews.

UKRAINIAN JEWS AIM TO STOP POGROMS

This fact that the population of 6,000,000 souls in Ukrainia and in Poland have received notice

through action and by word that they are going to be completely exterminated-

this fact stands before the whole world as the paramount issue of the present day

-The new york times, Monday September 8, 1919.

BEGS AMERICA SAVE 6,000,000 IN RUSSIA

Copyright, 1921, by The Chicago Tribune Co.

BERLIN, July 19. -Russia's 6,000,000 Jews are facing extermination by massacre.

As the famine is spreading, the counter-revolutionary movement is gaining and the Soviet's control is waning.

This statement is borne out by official documents presented to the berlin Bovernment,

which shows that numerous pogroms are raging in all parts of Russia and the Ukraine.

-The New york times, Wednesday, July 20, 1921

AMERICANS APPEAL FOR JEWISH REFUGE

The petition, in expressing the opinion of enlightened Christian leadership in the United States,

favoring a larger Jewish immigration into Palestine, stressed the intolerable sufferings of the millions

of Jews in "the European holocaust."

......

Great Britain has it within her power to throw open the gates and let the victimized and persecuted Jews

escaping from the Eurpoean holocaust.

-The New york times, Sunday, May 31, 1936.

Holocaust started at the end of WW1, nod how 6 million where destined for extermination as early as 1919

This is all in marked contrast to today where the floodgates seem to be open to Muslim immigrants, many of whom are in no danger themselves. this indeed is the case throughout much of the E.U and I would view this as telling background to E.U partiality regarding Israel and her neighbors.

P.S Went to Prague on my honeymoon and saw the old Jewish ghetto there and the effigies on top of a prominent church showing the four main threats to medieval Prague, one was the plague, another the Jews, I can't recall the other two.

I disagree, the vast majority of Europeans are no longer religious nut-cases,

i.e religion does not in any shape or form influence politics,

emm, unless political correctness can be classified as a religion, and that may well be the case.

I think most middle easterns are religious nutcases, and there is quite the bunch among american rednecks as well, and even in political positions, like Sarah Palin, whom see the war in Afghanistan as a religious war, good vs evil, christianity vs muslims and all that.

I disagree, the vast majority of Europeans are no longer religious nut-cases,

i.e religion does not in any shape or form influence politics,

emm, unless political correctness can be classified as a religion, and that may well be the case.

I think most middle easterns are religious nutcases, and there is quite the bunch among american rednecks as well, and even in political positions, like Sarah Palin, whom see the war in Afghanistan as a religious war, good vs evil, christianity vs muslims and all that.

A religious nutcase is anyone who disagrees with you, is it, Poanoi? May I reciprocate?

The Christian opposition to Jews was always centred on their rejection of the Messiah, not on their money-lending. Large sums were borrowed to finance the Crusades.... and I suspect one of the reasons for expelling Jews was to avoid having to pay back these loans. Ironically, now it is the Muslims who are against lending money out at interest.

Religion does still have quite a political influence in Europe, though clearly not as much as in the US.

A religious nutcase is anyone not worshiping the 'thunderbolt of flaming wisdom', simple as that

The thread is moderated and the rules still apply in OTB.

Please be civil.

I disagree, the vast majority of Europeans are no longer religious nut-cases,

i.e religion does not in any shape or form influence politics,

emm, unless political correctness can be classified as a religion, and that may well be the case.

I think most middle easterns are religious nutcases, and there is quite the bunch among american rednecks as well, and even in political positions, like Sarah Palin, whom see the war in Afghanistan as a religious war, good vs evil, christianity vs muslims and all that.

A religious nutcase is anyone who disagrees with you, is it, Poanoi? May I reciprocate?

The Christian opposition to Jews was always centred on their rejection of the Messiah, not on their money-lending. Large sums were borrowed to finance the Crusades.... and I suspect one of the reasons for expelling Jews was to avoid having to pay back these loans. Ironically, now it is the Muslims who are against lending money out at interest.

Religion does still have quite a political influence in Europe, though clearly not as much as in the US.

If you read the Cecil Roth extract that I linked above, you will find that the English had many laws and legal loopholes whereby it was possible to avoid repayment to those who had bankrolled you (i.e. the Jews).

In England it was not just expulsion, but mass slaughter at times. When King Richard came to power he was gifted a larg sum of money by the Jewish population, who came from towns all over the country to his coronation. His bodyguards panicked at the number of them, and the closeness to the rpyal personage, and beat them back, killing several. Rumours of this spread and in York the mob started slaughtering many Jews. The rest fled into York Castle for protection, but the governor left the castle and it was besieged by the mob. A learned rabbi, so it is said, then figuratively handed out the orangeade and the remaining Jews committed mass suicide. Some were not so easily misled and tried to surrender to the mob, but were also all killed. Thus was life led by Jews in England under Robin Hood's best mate. It gives a better understanding to Sir Walter Scott's 'Ivanhoe' - one of my favourite books.

(Sir WS probably knew little of Jews - Scotland was home to none from the dawn of time until during his lifetime)

Back on topic (!)

Israel raises temperature in run-up to Middle east Peace Talks.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/11/israel-palestine-middle-east-peace-talks

Clearly Uri Ariel, the Housing Minister, does not want the talks to succeed.

Back on topic (!)

Israel raises temperature in run-up to Middle east Peace Talks.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/11/israel-palestine-middle-east-peace-talks

Clearly Uri Ariel, the Housing Minister, does not want the talks to succeed.

Maybe not, but in the case of the settlements that are really now Jerusalem suburbs, Israel isn't going to negotiate most of those EVER, and I reckon the Palestinians leaders aren't so stupid as to think they will either. Neither side is going to get EVERYTHING they want if there is to be a negotiated peace. Not saying there IS going to be such a good result, but it's best to be realistic about what's possible and what's not.

I tire of threads like this, i really do. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to just how mainstream ignorance is? Well lets just state that 42.4% of the UK population when polled agreed with the statement that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians. Things haven't really changed that much since Cyprus have they?

http://cifwatch.com/2013/08/08/are-jews-the-most-incompetent-ethnic-cleansers-in-the-world/

I tire of threads like this, i really do. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to just how mainstream ignorance is? Well lets just state that 42.4% of the UK population when polled agreed with the statement that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians. Things haven't really changed that much since Cyprus have they?

http://cifwatch.com/2013/08/08/are-jews-the-most-incompetent-ethnic-cleansers-in-the-world/

Albeit a tiresome topic but you can't seem to resist commenting.....

Amused to see you dipping into the Guardian's "Comment is Free" webpage (albeit of the overwatch variety), but of course you don't necessarily agree with or support the views expressed in the sources you bring to the party. Personally I have always taken the view that if a guest brings an a**hole to a party who promptly beats up another guest and vomits on the carpet, it's the person who brought said a**hole who is responsible. Perhaps you do things differently in continental Europe.

Anyhow away from source observation, you really should have a read of the webpages you quote. While the CiF folk cherry-pick one line of the report, the actual report in its entirety makes for very interesting reading (attached below for your edification and education).

http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/do/07908-20110311.pdf

Not only does the very well-organized research flush out anti-semitism in different parts of Europe but also highlights how GFE ("group-focused enmity* towards immigrants, gays, women, muslims, non-whites, and Jews) is largely a function of age (the older the more prejudiced), levels of education and levels of income.

To quote the report:

"Those who denigrate one group are very likely to target other groups too. Although prejudices sometimes appear to be isolated they are in fact closely interconnected."

Furthermore:

"Three ideological orientations are especially associated with group-focused enmity: authoritarianism (an underlying attitude espousing law and order and discipline), Social Dominance Orientation (advocating social status hierarchies) and the rejection of diversity (a general rejection of cultural, ethnic and religious diversity within a country)."

Unfortunately..

"Respondents who denigrate weak groups are more likely to oppose integration of immigrants, to refuse them equal participation, to discriminate against them and to use violence against them."

The causes of such behaviour:

"Alongside an authoritarian mentality that supports hierarchies the most important explanatory factors for GFE are a subjective feeling that immigrants represent a threat and a general feeling of social disorientation. Low income and the feeling of being disadvantaged also play a role."

In conclusion...

"Prejudices are the lifeblood of right-wing populism and extremism, both of which threaten social cohesion and peaceful coexistence in the European Union. Populists channel prejudice into calls for exclusion, while right-wing extremists take their prejudices further and often propagate ideologies of violence against those seen as "foreign" or "different". Populism barks, but extremism bites. Both currents draw on and create prejudices."

Looks like on this occasion you have been shown up by the guest you brought to the party....thanks.

@Folium, Sorry, not playing demographics of who may or may not be Alf Garnett in the UK. My point was simple enough, the UK population has been fed spin and lies about Israel for so long that many don't know what day it is. Here is a classic example, a bare faced lie made to parliament by none other than Baroness Warsi in reply to a question raised by that poisonous anti-Semite Baroness Jenny Tonge over stating the numbers of Palestinian deaths by a factor of more than 10, sadly this is par for the course and only reinforces my view on who Israel should ignore.

http://www.trendingcentral.com/british-cabinet-member-lied-over-un-palestinian-death-figures/

Baroness Warsi is now being called upon to apologise to the House of Lords, and to the wider public, over the gross exaggeration of figures which distort the truth and will, some say, lead to the miseducation and misrepresentation about the situation in the Middle East.