Kasikorn - Fraud/Theft - Do I have ANY protection?!

[John 1]

As a "Newbie" I had no idea that it was protocol to upload any supporting documents to this forum when I was merely seeking feedback/opinions/knowledge on a situation or topic or otherwise I would be considered a "liar" or "bs" with malice intent to defame another.

So here are 3 documents. Depending on what order they are uploaded

The 133 is the ORIGINAL HUAI KHWANG POLICE REPORT 12/07/11

The Kasikorn document is telling HUAI KHWANG POLICE that the report is too old, they want another

The Huai Khwang Police letterhead is telling Kasikorn the case is still open, being investigated by new ofcr

KASIKORNPOLICEREPORT.pdf

KASIKORNLTRTOPOLICE.pdf

POLICELTRTOKASIKORN.pdf

After looking at the attachment's Pete, it seem's you filed the right paper work. The only obligation now is for the police to pursue the matter I don't see this as a bank issue.

[ILMW]

Of course I have TWICE now. I never heard such a thing that a Police Report is "too old" and Kasikorn needed a new one. Sounded like a stall tactic and illegal. Like filing 2 claims on 1 accident. I've also filed with the FCC which was the very 1st helpful suggestion on this thread and provided them the documentation that they forwarded to Kasikorn and advised me that I would hear back from Kasikorn. 21 months later, seeing the suspect sign on/off various social websites and no arrest with far-fetched stories that if he should be caught or arrested, he could buy his release from the police or even make the warrant go away which isn't so far-fetched in Thailand.

Yet Kasikorn has done nothing as most of you on the thread believe they shouldn't nor have any liability, which I highly disagree with my knowledge and background of Banks/Credit cards in the western world. Yes I know, I'm not in the west no longer.

But to think that nothing happens until an arrest is made is absurd. Imagine if the rest of the world operated like that then there would be no need for "victim impact" or "restitution" funds as payment is made by the suspect during/after their jail sentence in which in most cases the dollar amount of their crimes far exceed ever realistically expecting/making full payment to the victim. Although from rumors I've heard a short stay in "Bangkoks Hilton" for a Filipino will almost guarantee a trip to the morgue, which I wouldn't be too happy with until I was paid back, then...welll....<enough said>

We can all point fingers on who dropped the ball and hypothetical theories of who is/not liable and guns to heads or what not BUT, I'll say it again "in the west" a loss incurred with the commission of a crime whether it be me stealing your credit card and going on a shopping spree, stealing your checkbook and writing checks, stealing your identity, unauthorized ach/wire transfers etc you as the consumer/victim are protected and the banks "eat it" or take the loss. There used to be a $50 liability in cases of a stolen credit card up until you notify the bank but that has been phased out in the years. Isn't a matter of how drunk you were when you lost your wallet, left your computer screen on or the who's/what's/how's someone was able to victimize you Fraud/Theft/Unauthorized are all dealt in similiar matters and does not depend on whether or not the police make an arrest ALTHOUGH in some instances a Credit Card/Bank may require you to file a police report in cases involving a spouse/relative/son/daughter or person known to you. (Which I believed was going to be my scenario and outcome with Kasikorn)

Having said that, you as a consumer "in the west" have:

MOST PROTECTION - CREDIT CARD (RECOURSE Federal Regulation Z)

MORE PROTECTION - DEBIT CARD (RECOURSE Federal Regulation Z)

LESS PROTECTION - CHECK (RECOURSE stop payment/purchase-return policies/civil lawsuit)

LEAST - CASH (RECOURSE purchase-return policies/civil lawsuit)

Debit cards, although instantly debited from your account (like cash), still fall under Federal Regulation Z guidelines due to that neat little visa/mc logo

Let me add one more thing to this already exhausted thread...When I went to Lumpini Police Station to file my original claim, I had 3 police and 1 police translator all shaking their heads wondering to whom do I report this "internet online crime" to and where the jurisdiction fell. Being the farang that I am I became heated wondering "what the hell does it matter, just take the f'n report you idiots". Was this a passing-the-buck situation or was there some significance I wasn't aware of? After a while the focus was turned to the theft of the 100b sim card, in my room that placed it in the Huai Khwang District Police Station.

Recently I've had a sudden burst of energy to send emails/mailed packets to Philippines Embassy advising them of the activities of their "undesirable citizen" and warrant for arrest. To Canadian Embassy with documents of yet another potential victim of this Philippines National using that persons Canadian passport and creating his own.

My intent/hopes are that his passport is flagged by his own Embassy or that of the Thai Police so when he renews a visa or attempts to leave Thailand/cross a border he is apprehended. High hopes huh? TiT

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As some here might know, I've been about as critical as anyone of the Thai banks for what I consider to be their total lack of consumer protection relating to bank card activity and even bank fraud and theft. The usual response to the victim, even when the victim was totally not at fault, seems to be "sorry, your loss, your problem."

However, in this case, I'd say I'd concur with many of those posting here and opine that the OP doesn't really have any case against Kasikorn, given what occurred. He certainly has a case against his "friend" for theft. But as many of us know, trying to get results on such things through the police is a daunting and likely fruitless task.

Whether it's Thailand or even the countries where many of us came from, bank customers have an obligation to exercise due diligence in keeping their account IDs, passwords, etc. secure. From the account given by the OP, it would seem he might have a hard time making an argument on that count.

But out of his experience, there are some lessons to be learned:

--don't leave important passwords unsecured on your computer.

--use a log-on password to protect access to your computer.

--store important passwords with further encryption through apps such as LastPass.

--contact your Thai bank and set appropriate, safe daily limits on the amounts that can be withdrawn as cash, transferred or be made as purchases from your account.

--even though this wouldn't have helped the OP, take advantage of SMS confirmation services (One Time SMS Passwords) if your bank offers them.

That's at least a start.

OP, sorry for your loss. Good luck with the Thai police.

[ILMW]

As some here might know, I've been about as critical as anyone of the Thai banks for what I consider to be their total lack of consumer protection relating to bank card activity and even bank fraud and theft. The usual response to the victim, even when the victim was totally not at fault, seems to be "sorry, your loss, your problem."

However, in this case, I'd say I'd concur with many of those posting here and opine that the OP doesn't really have any case against Kasikorn, given what occurred. He certainly has a case against his "friend" for theft. But as many of us know, trying to get results on such things through the police is a daunting and likely fruitless task.

Whether it's Thailand or even the countries where many of us came from, bank customers have an obligation to exercise due diligence in keeping their account IDs, passwords, etc. secure. From the account given by the OP, it would seem he might have a hard time making an argument on that count.

But out of his experience, there are some lessons to be learned:

--don't leave important passwords unsecured on your computer.

--use a log-on password to protect access to your computer.

--store important passwords with further encryption through apps such as LastPass.

--contact your Thai bank and set appropriate, safe daily limits on the amounts that can be withdrawn as cash, transferred or be made as purchases from your account.

--even though this wouldn't have helped the OP, take advantage of SMS confirmation services (One Time SMS Passwords) if your bank offers them.

That's at least a start.

OP, sorry for your loss. Good luck with the Thai police.

Thank you.

Now by creating and posting this thread based on my own personal experience and by having to upload actual documents to support and prove to fellow bloggers that I wasn't full of s***, it was my intention to solicit facts/opinions of a large group so I could compile/review/discard at will the most common outlook and understanding to my situation. BUT, I truly believe I have uncovered yet another issue by many of the replies I have received. Although I do agree there is a lack or people claiming personal responsibility for things that happen to them in todays society, (red flags at beaches, gun safety/accidents, drug/alcohol usage, careing for a child) with regard to THIS thread, it appears that the banks have managed to have an overwhelming influence on the general population here in the East into believing that whatever happens to you must be your fault, Similar to (BPS) Battered Persons Syndrome where the abused thinks that the violence was his or her fault. We could debate and offer numerous idee fixes and tort claims right down to it being one's fault for opening a bank account, knowing full and well you will open yourself up to theft and victimization. Perhaps I've been spoiled growing up in the USA (a sue-happy society) where a persons/companies image and reputation is more valuable than proving right/wrong or who's actually liable whereas here in the East (Thailand) you will fight to the death to get your point across. (Reminds me of my MRT issue and demand for 15b) Let me tell you, if these same circumstances and facts that I have presented here happened in the USA on one of my USA bank accounts, I have no doubt I would have been credited by the bank days after filing the police report. Which is the exact reason I am beside myself with the replies I've seen here.

Now I'll say again, had I withdrawn money from an ATM and was robbed as the money exited the machine, then NO of course I don't have a claim. (Unless I can prove there wasn't adequate lighting or clearance of surrounding objects where I couldn't detect the presence of a threat....but forget I said that)

Stay tuned for my "MRT REQUEST FOR REFUND"

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Speaking as an American, if the exact same thing happened in the U.S., you MIGHT have been able to persuade the bank to reimburse... but even in that world where the laws are very clear and on your side, it might be a difficult proposition.

Here in Thailand, there are no laws on your side when it comes to dealing with your Thai bank. So the responses you've received simply reflect that many of us here have already had some exposure to these kinds of issues, and know how the Thai banks will typically respond.

There are plenty of cases here where the accountholder did absolutely nothing wrong, did nothing to expose their info, and still ended up being victimized in one way or another. Even in those cases, the Thai banks typically will give the victim the brush off. So in your case, where even you I presume would acknowledge you could have been more careful in protecting your info, how do you think they're likely to answer?

[GrantSmith]

Apologies to the OP for the loss... Almost 2 years and you haven't exacted your own revenge, kudos to you sir.

Having read from the beginning, a number of posters commented on the "relationship" aspect due in no part to your apparent typo when you stated "hugged my filipino", you then later referred to him as your "friend" - perhaps insinuating that he was something other than a friend...

Anyways, I digress and now that your emotions are in order.

You know where the alleged thief is or at least where he's been hanging out and it has been 2 years (give or take) since the incident, you could accidently on purpose bump into him.

Maintain a cool head and refrain from throwing handbags at him. Assuming you're not without other friends here in Bangkok that you all can't act like a gang of sorts - obviously not resorting to violence because that would be wrong - get the fellow suitably inebriated and you can all walk arm-in-arm, hand-in-hand to either Lumpini Police Station or Huai Kwang Police station or Kloeng Toei Police Station.

Sort of a citizens arrest type scenario.

And kudos for posting the reports on the thread too, certainly turned off a lot of the "this is bullsh!t" radars with that. Also, was it your intent to only redact your name and not of the alleged thief's?

Good luck with it all, unfortunately with almsot 2 years of inaction from your bank, your chances don't look great. Unfortunately the banking system is not the same as farangland and think yourself lucky that it was "only" 60,000 and not the full monty...

[monty]

I think we can recap pretty much what happened and where it went wrong for the OP.

- Obviously a crime has been committed. Regardless of being careless, or regardless of the relationship of the OP to the perpetrator.

- It is the opinion of many (including mine) that the bank not neceseraly had to act in anyway. Their safety systems worked as advertised, the safety systems were breached at the OP's side.

This because of various reasons such as: customer protection regarding banking being lacking (specifically in Thailand), and there is probably a lot of small print in their T&C's that absolve them of any responsibility.

As another poster posted, even in the highly regulated US, chances of a refund would be slim at best in the exact same scenario. They would be done more out of customer service/customer retention reasons, rather then because of having to. Unfortunately neither of those two things rate high at Thai banks.

I'm pretty sure a bank in the US cannot simply freeze an account based on fraud being inflicted against a private person (not against the bank or the bank's systems), but that they also need to be ordered to do so by law enforcement agencies after they investigate and deem the fraud genuine.

- The only thing which could have helped the OP was swift and correct actions by the legal authorities. Being to establish a crime has been committed, identify the perpetrator and take appropriate action. Actions likely needed to be authorized by a judge (freezing of bank account, search warrant, arrest warrant etc...).

So in my humble opinion, the main reason nothing has been resolved for the OP stems from the reluctance of the law enforcement agencies involved to take the case serrious and act appropriate on it.

So, again in my humble opinion, the title of the thread is wrong, and should indicate that Thai law enforcement is not taking relatively small scale fraud cases serious! And that maybe Thai banks could support their customers a bit more.

[John 1]

I think we can recap pretty much what happened and where it went wrong for the OP.

- Obviously a crime has been committed. Regardless of being careless, or regardless of the relationship of the OP to the perpetrator.

- It is the opinion of many (including mine) that the bank not neceseraly had to act in anyway. Their safety systems worked as advertised, the safety systems were breached at the OP's side.

This because of various reasons such as: customer protection regarding banking being lacking (specifically in Thailand), and there is probably a lot of small print in their T&C's that absolve them of any responsibility.

As another poster posted, even in the highly regulated US, chances of a refund would be slim at best in the exact same scenario. They would be done more out of customer service/customer retention reasons, rather then because of having to. Unfortunately neither of those two things rate high at Thai banks.

I'm pretty sure a bank in the US cannot simply freeze an account based on fraud being inflicted against a private person (not against the bank or the bank's systems), but that they also need to be ordered to do so by law enforcement agencies after they investigate and deem the fraud genuine.

- The only thing which could have helped the OP was swift and correct actions by the legal authorities. Being to establish a crime has been committed, identify the perpetrator and take appropriate action. Actions likely needed to be authorized by a judge (freezing of bank account, search warrant, arrest warrant etc...).

So in my humble opinion, the main reason nothing has been resolved for the OP stems from the reluctance of the law enforcement agencies involved to take the case serrious and act appropriate on it.

So, again in my humble opinion, the title of the thread is wrong, and should indicate that Thai law enforcement is not taking relatively small scale fraud cases serious! And that maybe Thai banks could support their customers a bit more.

I don't see this as a fraud case. The Thai police accepted the loss report what more do you wan't them to do. I would assume they see these sort of cases all the time a friend cheating a friend or what ever this is Thailand. As for a bank to offer more support for the customer why? they are in a business. I don't care as the original poster says he has no faith in the East (Thailand system) I find the system in Thailand is as good as if not better than America. Look at America the land of the swindler's and most still running around. Also one note look when you do on-line banking in Thailand there are plenty of warning posted on the bank site what to watch for.

[ILMW]

Apologies to the OP for the loss... Almost 2 years and you haven't exacted your own revenge, kudos to you sir.

Having read from the beginning, a number of posters commented on the "relationship" aspect due in no part to your apparent typo when you stated "hugged my filipino", you then later referred to him as your "friend" - perhaps insinuating that he was something other than a friend...

Anyways, I digress and now that your emotions are in order.

You know where the alleged thief is or at least where he's been hanging out and it has been 2 years (give or take) since the incident, you could accidently on purpose bump into him.

Maintain a cool head and refrain from throwing handbags at him. Assuming you're not without other friends here in Bangkok that you all can't act like a gang of sorts - obviously not resorting to violence because that would be wrong - get the fellow suitably inebriated and you can all walk arm-in-arm, hand-in-hand to either Lumpini Police Station or Huai Kwang Police station or Kloeng Toei Police Station.

Sort of a citizens arrest type scenario.

And kudos for posting the reports on the thread too, certainly turned off a lot of the "this is bullsh!t" radars with that. Also, was it your intent to only redact your name and not of the alleged thief's?

Good luck with it all, unfortunately with almsot 2 years of inaction from your bank, your chances don't look great. Unfortunately the banking system is not the same as farangland and think yourself lucky that it was "only" 60,000 and not the full monty...

Thank you for your reply. No things are not the same and I'm sure he had plans to slowly milk my account for the month I was to be in the USA and didn't realize I'd be quick to intercept his scheme when I landed in Seoul Korea. Yes it was my intention to remove my name although someone did refer to me as "Pete" so I must have missed that in one of the documents, but I truly could care less and sure I kept his name in there and if I didn't thnk it was a violation in this post Id gladly post his name/dob/pp#/photos and anything else I could to make sure that none of you run into him. I have documents of him making a fraudulent passport from a Canadian National, he has stolen from many other farang as well. Very coy, evasive with answering questions, fluent in english, cunning and conning at the same time, many aliases.

I like your citizens arrest scenario but he is difficult to pinpoint down in one spot for too long. I carry a copy of the police report with me so if I ever do see him out and about and I have enough sense of mind to not do something I'd regret, I'd try to find a cop, though that can be hard to do at times.

Nothing alleged about it. The transfer happened, it credited his account, debited mine, I was leaving the country at the time and I say I did not authorize it. Perhaps "triangulation" from cell phone towers could detect where the SMS was received, or the phone or computer that was used to initiate the transfer. I can guarantee you it wasn't within the secured part of the airport where I had entered passport control. Perhaps too far advanced for Thailand and 60000b is not that serious. But it does make it worse since I had earmarked that money for a Christmas donation to BAAN GERDA for children/orphans with hiv/aids in the LopBuri Province.

[monty]

To be honest, a police report alone is worth nothing.

The only way to get back at him, is to somehow get the police to admit a criminal fact has been committed, so they can go to a judge who can sign of on an arrest warrant (if he agrees a crime has actually been committed).

As long as they see it as a civil case (much like a broken agreement/contract between two persons), nothing ever will happen.

The moment it's accepted that an actual crime has been committed, the wheels of justice slowly can start churning.

This would practically mean arrest warrant, followed by arrest, posting of bail to regain freedom, but bail conditions and so on...

With the justice system behind you, the bank would have to surrender the IP address from where the transfer had been initiated, which will obviously be in Thailand, at a moment you were hopefully not in Thailand any more.

You'd need to meticulously document everything as much as possible.

The moment it is accepted as criminal, the justice system will go after him, but as long as it is deemed a civil dispute, you would have to go after him at your own expense, and such civil lawsuits can cost heaps of money.

This will mean that you would have to invest a multiple of the amount of money lost in court fees, lawyer fees etc.

Practically, it seems in Thailand nobody is bothering much in such cases unless the amount is in the region of several hundreds of thousands of Baht, and a lot of those perpetrators know this!

[ILMW]

I think we can recap pretty much what happened and where it went wrong for the OP.

- Obviously a crime has been committed. Regardless of being careless, or regardless of the relationship of the OP to the perpetrator.

- It is the opinion of many (including mine) that the bank not neceseraly had to act in anyway. Their safety systems worked as advertised, the safety systems were breached at the OP's side.

This because of various reasons such as: customer protection regarding banking being lacking (specifically in Thailand), and there is probably a lot of small print in their T&C's that absolve them of any responsibility.

As another poster posted, even in the highly regulated US, chances of a refund would be slim at best in the exact same scenario. They would be done more out of customer service/customer retention reasons, rather then because of having to. Unfortunately neither of those two things rate high at Thai banks.

I'm pretty sure a bank in the US cannot simply freeze an account based on fraud being inflicted against a private person (not against the bank or the bank's systems), but that they also need to be ordered to do so by law enforcement agencies after they investigate and deem the fraud genuine.

- The only thing which could have helped the OP was swift and correct actions by the legal authorities. Being to establish a crime has been committed, identify the perpetrator and take appropriate action. Actions likely needed to be authorized by a judge (freezing of bank account, search warrant, arrest warrant etc...).

So in my humble opinion, the main reason nothing has been resolved for the OP stems from the reluctance of the law enforcement agencies involved to take the case serrious and act appropriate on it.

So, again in my humble opinion, the title of the thread is wrong, and should indicate that Thai law enforcement is not taking relatively small scale fraud cases serious! And that maybe Thai banks could support their customers a bit more.

I don't see this as a fraud case. The Thai police accepted the loss report what more do you wan't them to do. I would assume they see these sort of cases all the time a friend cheating a friend or what ever this is Thailand. As for a bank to offer more support for the customer why? they are in a business. I don't care as the original poster says he has no faith in the East (Thailand system) I find the system in Thailand is as good as if not better than America. Look at America the land of the swindler's and most still running around. Also one note look when you do on-line banking in Thailand there are plenty of warning posted on the bank site what to watch for.

Someone steals whatever information they need to transfer money from your account to theirs without your knowledge, authorization and you don't see that as "fraud", theft or some illegal act and blame yourself for allowing it to happen? Stealing money or property from your condo, "friend cheating a friend", is a whole lot different that useing the tools provided by a BANK to debit your account. WOW I truly wonder how many times in your life you allowed yourself losses that coulda/woulda/shoulda been reimbursed by another regardless of your own stupidity or allowing it. Not for anything but except for a few constructive helpful posts or expressions of empathing most of you responders are blank blank blank blank blank (in my opinion)

I digress this topic and realize that even 8000 miles away I am dealing with sheep. Baaaaahaaaaaa!

[MobileContent]

Password should never be stored on a PC or Notebook. I got all passwords in my head.

The bank seems to be not at fault with this case.